Tips for spotting AT guns

[17pounder]

Forgot to mention - yes I know rockets are not particularly accurate, but I've also had the same problem with other artillery as well, and keeping an obo on the target with LOS can be like a separate little battle all on it's own!

But I'd like to say I appreciate all the comments and advise given here.

[Baneman]

With regards to artillery DENIED - it's worth playing around in a setup screen with a minimal force - an FO, some HQ's etc. and different types of artillery.

Use Alt-Z to turn on the command lines and then move units around to have them in and not in command and note when the artillery is and isn't available. That should quickly give you a good idea of how to arrange your troops so that your artillery is almost always available and on call.

Hope it helps  

[17pounder]

Wilco, I'll try that.

[Vanir Ausf B]

IIRC, the DENIED message specifically means you are trying to use an HQ unit to call in an artillery or air asset that requires an FO. Artillery assets that require an FO are label "FO required" in the purchase menu.

[MikeyD]

The Russians particularly were not very flexible with their small unit on-call artillery support. This is one of the reasons why you've got so many direct fire artillery vehicles on the Russian side. They let an accompanying ISU-152 platoon make up for lack of proper on-call artillery. A recent game change is spotters are no longer able to call in multiple missions at the same time. So if you have you spotter give a max/harass fire mission to artillery they're going to spend the rest of the game tying your spotter up as they drop one round at a time on the map.

[Erwin]

I dunno if different titles handle FO's differently, but I have founds that once a barrage starts, the spotter is freed up to order other strikes.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Erwin

[MOS:96B2P]

49 minutes ago, Erwin said:

<Snip> that once a barrage starts, the spotter is freed up to order other strikes.

+1 This.  And the observer can adjust this original fire mission onto new targets as needed.  If it is a low rate of fire, low tube, maximum time mission the observer can adjust onto new targets with short delays for some time.  My sustained fire rate for a US 105mm Battery is 34 minutes.

@MikeyD  That is firing on light not harass.  However my SOP is to use harass with certain mortars and they drop more than one round a turn.  If they didn't I would increase the rate of fire to light for them also.  IIRC I have only seen the spotting rounds of some assets come in at one round a turn. 

[Warts 'n' all]

Using "Light" or "Harass" is something I do quite often if the F.O. is unsighted during the Set-up Phrase as it gives him plenty of time to find a better position.

[Erwin]

+1  Yes this is also my SOP.  Realistic or just another gamey tactic that works in the game?

Also, HARASS fire can be useful if there are multiple tubes.  3-6 tubes of 150mm on HARASS can be nasty for a long time.

I have a gripe that if you select multiple on-map mortars to fire together, each mortar will waste ammo for spotting rounds.

[Michael Emrys]

6 hours ago, Erwin said:

I have a gripe that if you select multiple on-map mortars to fire together, each mortar will waste ammo for spotting rounds.

My guess that is because they, unlike off-map artillery, are not firing from surveyed locations. Thus, the firing data for one is useless for other tubes.

An interesting option, if you just want to make the programmers' lives a bit more complicated, would be to be able to have on-map arty of any sort fire from a surveyed location. They would have to be in that location at the beginning of the game and they would lose that status if they move (surveying takes time, possibly more than would be available in a CM battle).

Michael

Edited November 30, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[c3k]

13 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

My guess that is because they, unlike off-map artillery, are not firing from surveyed locations. Thus, the firing data for one is useless for other tubes.

An interesting option, if you just want to make the programmers' lives a bit more complicated, would be to be able to have on-map arty of any sort fire from a surveyed location. They would have to be in that location at the beginning of the game and they would lose that status if they move (surveying takes time, possibly more than would be available in a CM battle).

Michael

Hmmm....a nice use of a TRP? One TRP near the firing location means it's a surveyed firing location? Another TRP near the target location and you've got much faster response and better accuracy?

Ken

[Erwin]

14 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

My guess that is because they, unlike off-map artillery, are not firing from surveyed locations. Thus, the firing data for one is useless for other tubes.

An interesting option, if you just want to make the programmers' lives a bit more complicated, would be to be able to have on-map arty of any sort fire from a surveyed location. They would have to be in that location at the beginning of the game and they would lose that status if they move (surveying takes time, possibly more than would be available in a CM battle).

Michael

However, if one starts with deployed mortars on-map in set-up turn, that at least should be defined as "surveyed".  I rarely feel the need to move on-map mortars from set-up since the CM2 maps are smallish.  IIRC in CM1 on-map arty like mortars did not require individual spotting when fired as a battery. 

A TRP at the target location already provides the fast response and accuracy of a prepped plan/surveyed location - can't see the need of a 2nd TRP near the firing unit.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Erwin

[MikeyD]

A lot of artillery fire wasn't meant to actually hit anything, it was more 'area denial'. Drop artillery shells on an intersection frequently enough that nobody would want to risk driving through it. Players seem to not much like this form of harassment. I believe on CMFB QB maps opening barrage AI harassing fire was left out due to popular demand, Opening barrage AI fire can be considered pre-planned firing on unobserved coordinates.

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Erwin said:

However, if one starts with deployed mortars on-map in set-up turn, that at least should be defined as "surveyed".

That's what I said.

BTW, I haven't tried it, but I suspect that's how the game works for pre-planned missions.

Michael

[Erwin]

Yes, I was responding to "Hmmm....a nice use of a TRP? One TRP near the firing location means it's a surveyed firing location? Another TRP near the target location and you've got much faster response and better accuracy? ".

[DMS]

And what's about area target button? Is is realistic enough to order tank to target question mark?

How to get question marks? Infantry. They spot firing gun easily. Then get them close to the tank, they will report tankmen where gun is.

[Pericles]

Currently playing "Hunting for the bug". Came to this thread to figure out how to deal with tank spotting of AT guns at long range after losing 4 tanks to 2 AT guns in less than 2 minutes (6 tanks lost to the 2 AT guns in total so far).

After reviewing the comments, it seems that there are no "tips" for spotting AT guns with tanks: the AT gun will spot your tank first and will destroy it (might be an exception for green AT crews but they're uncommon). In fact, it will spot and destroy many of your tanks first, even if they all have LoS on the guns simultaneously, are unbuttoned, and are dispersed. 

So my conclusion is that if you are not ok with sacrificing 2-4 tanks and their crews to finally spot and destroy an AT gun, then keep your tanks on standby until the AT guns are dealt with using artillery or infantry. 

IMO this is not a realistic feature. I have four tanks with LoS on the AT gun positions. The tanks are unbuttoned. When a large 88 mm AT gun fires, I expect crew members with LoS on those AT guns to spot them. But they don't. 

Anybody know how these situations played out in reality during WWII? My guess is that if AT guns were present, tanks would hide until they were dealt with. Perhaps tanks would fire on the known location of the guns at times from hidden position, although I don't see how this tactic could be used in game because the tanks will be spotted and destroyed with relentless precision. 

[Wicky]

Best lead with infanty to flush em out - use of sacrificial jeep optional

Edited January 12, 2018 by Wicky

[DMS]

Just now, Pericles said:

Currently playing "Hunting for the bug". Came to this thread to figure out how to deal with tank spotting of AT guns at long range after losing 4 tanks to 2 AT guns in less than 2 minutes (6 tanks lost to the 2 AT guns in total so far).

 

T-34-76 didn't have dedicated commander, he had to fire the gun and to observe the battlefield in the same time. In the game this tanks have huge spotting penalty. Sometimes it is realistic, sometimes not. I think tank had narrow field of view, but in this field of view spotting should be normal. T-34's could ignore infantry at 4 hours, but spotted forward good, like any other tank. When tank isn't firing. While firing commander didn't observe at all.

In this mission I sent infantry forward. HMGs supressed 88's from 1000 metres, mech platoon tried to get closer. Infantry reported intel to tankmen, than T-34s rushed forward. I lost 3-4 tanks, including T-70.

[General Liederkranz]

(spoiler alert for Hunting for the Bug)

 

 

I played this scenario twice and found it a great lesson in dealing with AT guns without indirect fire. I agree with DMS that it’s helfpul to have the  MGs suppress the 88s. The infantry are great for spotting the guns. The first time, i then had the infantry get in close and overrun the 88s , but that’s really slow and the tanks have to basically just hide, removing them as an advantage. 

The second time I found the tanks, with some help, can take care off he 88s  themselves: After the infantry spot the guns, they can share the information with the tanks, which then get ? icons on the guns’ locations. I then had a whole tank company pull up into positions on the wooded knoll and area fire at the suspected gun positions. The 88s might kill a couple tanks before they die, but they’ll already be partly suppressed by the MGs, and then by the hail of 76mm HE, which will quickly knock them out. I’ve found that massed tank area fire onto AT gun positions that infantry have previously spottted is pretty effective in many scenarios  

Of course, this applies once you know the 88s are out there in the first place, which probably means finding out when they blow up a T-70.

Edited January 15, 2018 by General Liederkranz

[John Kettler]

On 11/24/2016 at 2:36 PM, akd said:

Area targets snap to the center of the tile you are targeting in.  Now, there are of course situations where you can trace LOS to part of a tile, but not area target the center of the tile itself.  But this is area targeting and should not be used for targeting with 1m precision.  Since area fire is spread to some degree, you can often achieve area effects by targeting one tile short or left and right of the partially obscured tile containing the target.

The problem is that what people often want is not suppressive area fire, but point destruction of a target another unit sees, but the firing unit has not spotted itself.

It just so happens the field manuals tell real gunners to do exactly this, the premise being that at the very least it throws up so much stuff it makes it difficult for the gun to operate effectively and may well cause casualties and/or KO the gun. This also makes ranging errors work for the shooter. Since the game doesn't model ricochet fire (HE Delay skipped off the ground for air burst), this is the way to go. Also, the ability to locate an ATG, relative to what I've read, is practically phenomenal. What is, for example, the life expectancy of an 88, based on combat history vs in-game figures? 

Regards,

John Kettler

[Warts 'n' all]

4 hours ago, John Kettler said:

 What is, for example, the life expectancy of an 88, based on combat history vs in-game figures? 

I don't know, John. I tend to rely on you for that kind of info.

[Kaunitz]

Not really tips, but rather two thoughts:

1) For obvious reasons, many people choose a high experience level for heavy calibre weapons. That means that many weapons aim very quickly and score hits with the first or second shot, which makes the spotting game even more important and decisive than usual.

2) Many people have the mindset that they need to knock out all enemy positions. But sometimes, it would be sufficient to pass by a position. Tanks can move fast. Use this. If the ATguns' fields of fire are very narrow (many AT guns use keyhole positions), let your tanks sprint across it if the terrain is suitable. The AT guns might have a hard time to aim (aiming time increases with distance, afaik) and accurately shoot that quickly at a fast moving target. Also, if the distance is very, very short, the traverse speed of AT gun might be an issue against fast moving tanks

Edited September 26, 2018 by Kaunitz

[General Jack Ripper]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 9:17 PM, LC- said:

Anyone have any tips for these pests?  I was playing a game against the cpu where I had a TON of King Tigers vs various soviet afvs and at guns.  The guns weren't much of a threat to the king tigers but they would fire for massive amounts of turns and never be spotted by the tank.  My arty observers could see them and I dropped "cease and desist" hints on them but I couldn't believe how my tigers could never find them after 9-10 turns of constant pings off their armor.  Same thing happened a few turns later with some hidden JS tanks in the woods.  Not complaining at all, just wondering how to spot them without my TC losing his head after a turn or if the Kings visibility is that bad?  Actually had some Panzer IVs and Panthers with them as well and they couldn't find the threats, however they weren't getting any ap rounds off their main guns and optics.

Area fire is your friend. [Target Briefly] any place you suspect of having a gun.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Also your King Tigers optics/observation slits were probably trashed from sitting there and getting hit for 10 minutes.