Tips for spotting AT guns

[akd]

57 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Yeah, the deal is that I can get the blue line to the spot I want to target, but when I click on it, it snaps to either one side or the other, always in a completely different AS. Now that may simply reflect some arcane coding limitation, but for me the player it represents a breakdown in realism.

Michael

Area targets snap to the center of the tile you are targeting in.  Now, there are of course situations where you can trace LOS to part of a tile, but not area target the center of the tile itself.  But this is area targeting and should not be used for targeting with 1m precision.  Since area fire is spread to some degree, you can often achieve area effects by targeting one tile short or left and right of the partially obscured tile containing the target.

The problem is that what people often want is not suppressive area fire, but point destruction of a target another unit sees, but the firing unit has not spotted itself.

[Baneman]

1 hour ago, akd said:

...  Since area fire is spread to some degree, you can often achieve area effects by targeting one tile short or left and right of the partially obscured tile containing the target.

...

My bold - my experience in game is that targeting short is the best option to hit something you can't quite target directly because pixeltruppen just love to overshoot ( a lot ! ). Quite often you'll see heaps of tracer flying off the map because Kronik Klaus can't bring the barrel down...

[Erwin]

Yeah that's been my solution as well...  undershoot (or overshoot if that seems closer).

[Michael Emrys]

4 hours ago, IanL said:

In reality the unit in question either has the vaguest idea where the enemy is...

That is all well and good, but I should still be able to shoot where I can point the gun even if that is not exactly where the enemy is located. I mean, in the current state, it is as if the gunner were palsied and couldn't manage his job properly.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

4 hours ago, M.J.H. said:

...if a unit is directing area fire to an AS, and then spots a unit occupying that AS - they then direct their fire more accurately at the acquired target. 

They can, but only in the next turn and only if the owning player redirects the fire onto the now spotted unit. Or he can simply cancel his previous targeting order and hope that his unit will on their own initiative choose to open fire on the now spotted enemy unit.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, Baneman said:

...my experience in game is that targeting short is the best option to hit something you can't quite target directly...

in practice that has been my workaround too. Often by aiming short, at least there is a chance some of my shots will reach the target, which is preferable to having them all go wide.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

28 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

That is all well and good, but I should still be able to shoot where I can point the gun even if that is not exactly where the enemy is located. I mean, in the current state, it is as if the gunner were palsied and couldn't manage his job properly.

Michael

Do you have a saved game showing this?

[Michael Emrys]

6 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Do you have a saved game showing this?

Nope. Sorry.

Michael

[MOS:96B2P]

19 hours ago, M.J.H. said:

<Snip> I have also noticed that if a unit is directing area fire to an AS, and then spots a unit occupying that AS - they then direct their fire more accurately at the acquired target. 

This is interesting AI behavior which I have never tested for but it is referred to in the CM tutorials. .      

14 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

They can, but only in the next turn and only if the owning player redirects the fire onto the now spotted unit. Or he can simply cancel his previous targeting order and hope that his unit will on their own initiative choose to open fire on the now spotted enemy unit.

Michael

I have not tested this but according to the tutorials (the newest CMFB game manual tutorial page 18):  

Area firing units will spread their shots around to cover the nearby terrain and will automatically switch to target enemy units if they appear in the nearby area.  

I will add the disclaimer that I have not tested this and some things in the engine manual and individual game manuals are not entirely accurate. But at least in theory what @M.J.H. said should (according to the game manual) work.  

[A Canadian Cat]

It definitely does work that way. 

[Bulletpoint]

On 23/11/2016 at 11:40 PM, Vanir Ausf B said:

Action spots are 64 meters². Would you want LOS all or nothing within that area?

I believe it is already all or nothing - the game traces a line from your firing unit to the centre of the square you want to target.

If the LOS from the centre of the square your unit is in to the centre of the target squaret is blocked, even just by a little, that means you can't area target any of those 64 m2 in that square.

At least that's how I believe it works. But individual soldiers can apparently target each other with more precision, if they actively spot their target. I think this can only happen if they have a contact marker in the target square.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[17pounder]

I think the biggest and best way to defeat any defensive force, including AT guns, is to always apply a "combined arms" approach. That way you should be able to overcome any defence if you use each arm intelligently. Suspect AT guns or AT infantry? Send infantry recon forward to find out. Your scouts find dug in MG's? Then its armour forward, and so on. If defence was that easy then no battle would ever end!

[Vanir Ausf B]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

If the LOS from the centre of the square your unit is in to the centre of the target squaret is blocked, even just by a little, that means you can't area target any of those 64 m2 in that square.

That is true but the opposite is not true. If LOS can be traced from center to center of the action spot you are not guaranteed LOS to the entire spot.

The game keeps a map in memory of what action spots are allowed LOS checks to each other. For units occupying spots for which LOS checks are allowed, fine-grained LOS calculations are made based on the exact positioning of each pair of eyeballs within the action spot. That is when you get LOS to some parts of an action spot but not the whole square.

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

If the LOS from the centre of the square your unit is in to the centre of the target squaret is blocked, even just by a little, that means you can't area target any of those 64 m2 in that square.

That has been my experience.

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

But individual soldiers can apparently target each other with more precision, if they actively spot their target. I think this can only happen if they have a contact marker in the target square.

That too.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, 17pounder said:

I think the biggest and best way to defeat any defensive force, including AT guns, is to always apply a "combined arms" approach. That way you should be able to overcome any defence if you use each arm intelligently. Suspect AT guns or AT infantry? Send infantry recon forward to find out. Your scouts find dug in MG's? Then its armour forward, and so on.

And if your scouts find ATGs, then it's time to call for some indirect fire weapons, whether on-map mortars or off-map arty. Of course all this is just Combined Arms Tactics 101.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Contact markers are irrelevant to line of sight. A unit can go straight from unspotted to spotted without a contact marker first. But they do give a bonus to spotting checks.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Vanir Ausf B

[17pounder]

18 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

And if your scouts find ATGs, then it's time to call for some indirect fire weapons, whether on-map mortars or off-map arty. Of course all this is just Combined Arms Tactics 101.

Michael

I did that for a reason; I would have mentioned artillery/air strikes in any other tactical WWII game, except in this game it's "DENIED" nine times out of ten when you need it (presuming you're even given any). Moving a mortar up into LOS is not remotely an option either IMO. If your fighting a timed battle as is so often the case, then hanging around for a fire support mission is not reallyon. It's also not a good idea to over-rely on artillery for the reasons above.  

Edited November 27, 2016 by 17pounder

[Warts 'n' all]

"artillery" ... "DENIED" .. "nine times out of ten".... Sounds just a tad unrealistic. Unless you are really that bad at managing your assets.

[sburke]

1 minute ago, Warts 'n' all said:

"artillery" ... "DENIED" .. "nine times out of ten".... Sounds just a tad unrealistic. Unless you are really that bad at managing your assets.

Yeah It sounds a bit like a lack of attention to c2 and are the mortars deployed.  90% is a ridiculously high denial rate. Something is not being handled right if that is an actual rate versus just an expression of frustration. 

[MOS:96B2P]

On 11/26/2016 at 7:53 AM, 17pounder said:

I think the biggest and best way to defeat any defensive force, including AT guns, is to always apply a "combined arms" approach. That way you should be able to overcome any defence if you use each arm intelligently. <Snip> 

Spot on.  Combined arms is the way to go.

1 hour ago, 17pounder said:

I did that for a reason; I would have mentioned artillery/air strikes in any other tactical WWII game, except in this game it's "DENIED" nine times out of ten when you need it (presuming you're even given any). Moving a mortar up into LOS is not remotely an option either IMO. If your fighting a timed battle as is so often the case, then hanging around for a fire support mission is not reallyon. It's also not a good idea to over-rely on artillery for the reasons above.  

Not sure how much of the above is frustration or serious.  In CMRT aircraft are roving so I also don't rely on them.  I'm afraid they may hit friendly troops.  

Only HQ teams, Forward Observers and some XO teams have the ability to call for artillery.  All other teams are denied.  I only mention this because in CMBS, on the US side, almost every fire team can call for artillery.  Maybe you were expecting the same behavior in CMRT?  (Not being snarky, trying to be helpful)  I will also add that the ranking officer in the HQ, XO, and FO teams must not be KIA.  If they are KIA the team will lose the ability to call for artillery.  It does not matter if these teams have a radio or not.  On map mortars must be in C2.  Off  map mortars & arty are always considered in C2.   

Target Reference Points (TRPs) are very useful.  In the attack I place them to support my scheme of maneuver.  On the defense I place them on likely OpFor avenues of approach.  No line of site needed, no spotting rounds to warn the OpFor and the fire for effect is quicker.  I also use a low rate, low tube, maximum time, fire missions and adjust as necessary.  

The above works for me and about the only time I see "denied" is if the team officer is KIA.  Hope that gave you some ideas.     

[MikeyD]

One thing that helps spot enemy AT guns is time. If you've got lots of eye and ears on alert and sitting in place eventually they may spot an AT gun (?) icon on a distant hill. Sometimes that's a function of the enemy unit. If its a green AT gun crew they tend to eventually get themselves noticed. If its elite they blend in with the foliage like the frickin' Predator monster.

If you watch the old war movies they're always rotating which man is on point in the patrol because oftentimes you don't discover the enemy until they try to shoot the guy up front. In the Bulge title Jumbo leads the platoon advance for that reason.

About mortars, don't forget the mortar crew needs a radio too. Also even they need LOF, of a sort. Position them too closely behind a tall building then they won't be able to fire downrange because the building's blocking them. I've got myself in trouble several times over that.

Edited November 27, 2016 by MikeyD

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

On map mortars must be in C2.

Not only that, they must either be within command range of the unit calling for fire, or within command range of an HQ that has a radio and is in contact with the requesting unit.

Michael

[17pounder]

19 hours ago, sburke said:

Yeah It sounds a bit like a lack of attention to c2 and are the mortars deployed.  90% is a ridiculously high denial rate. Something is not being handled right if that is an actual rate versus just an expression of frustration. 

Ok I exaggerated, but the general point is valid - you can't always rely on your artillery in this game because it's denied a significant amount of time when you actually need it, and also often very slow arriving - I've had this with all forms of barrage too. Hanging around whilst the clock ticks down on your attack waiting for some tubes to come online, is not my favoured approach, though of course everyone has their own preferences. In addition it's not instant gratification either as it's not always accurate (just like real life). I wonder how quickly the Germans would have reached Dunkirk had they relied on textbook artillery barrages going through France? 

Yes it's a part of combined arms for sure, but just one contributory factor, and perhaps for a certain style of play.

Edited November 28, 2016 by 17pounder

[17pounder]

19 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

"artillery" ... "DENIED" .. "nine times out of ten".... Sounds just a tad unrealistic. Unless you are really that bad at managing your assets.

See my answer to sburke - ok I exaggerated, but the general point is very valid inasmuch as relying totally on your artillery will mean unnecessary delays, long waits for comms and potentially an inaccurate barrage at the end of it (just like it really was), the other big drawback is you can't safely move your troops forward whilst waiting for it, unless you want friendly fire casualties. The allies in 1944-45 on all fronts were deadly to the Germans with their massed artillery, but they usually didn't have an exact time limit to fight to - or someone coming round in an hour to watch the footie! 

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by 17pounder

[17pounder]

18 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Spot on.  Combined arms is the way to go.

Not sure how much of the above is frustration or serious.  In CMRT aircraft are roving so I also don't rely on them.  I'm afraid they may hit friendly troops.  

Only HQ teams, Forward Observers and some XO teams have the ability to call for artillery.  All other teams are denied.  I only mention this because in CMBS, on the US side, almost every fire team can call for artillery.  Maybe you were expecting the same behavior in CMRT?  (Not being snarky, trying to be helpful)  I will also add that the ranking officer in the HQ, XO, and FO teams must not be KIA.  If they are KIA the team will lose the ability to call for artillery.  It does not matter if these teams have a radio or not.  On map mortars must be in C2.  Off  map mortars & arty are always considered in C2.   

Target Reference Points (TRPs) are very useful.  In the attack I place them to support my scheme of maneuver.  On the defense I place them on likely OpFor avenues of approach.  No line of site needed, no spotting rounds to warn the OpFor and the fire for effect is quicker.  I also use a low rate, low tube, maximum time, fire missions and adjust as necessary.  

The above works for me and about the only time I see "denied" is if the team officer is KIA.  Hope that gave you some ideas.     

I'm always happy to get advice from vets! I tend to be less reliant on my tubes than some, maybe because I've suffered too much friendly fire. I also enjoy the more even battle of flanking AT guns or using a specialist infantry team on them if I can, perhaps in coordination with HE tanks (the bigger the better, if infantry are covering those guns) - tends to be a lot quicker and precise I find, if it's possible.

Example; last week I made a QB (my favoured way of playing this thing). Russian assault on a German position behind a river (all random/automatic selection). My force was mostly Su-76's which was not ideal. So I recce'd with scouts and came under fire from woods on the edge of one side of the target village. Considering my lack of heavy armour (just one 152) I thought ok job for the tubes. Katyusha was the card I'd drawn. Plotted a fire mission using my forward op - soon reduced to one thanks to a pesky and very accurate mg34. Asked for max and emergency. Goddam it was a long wait and I was on a 1 hour mission deadline (or the gulag for me). I wasted quite a significant amount of time waiting for that barrage and when it finally arrived it missed the wood almost totally!

Cut a long story short I took the entire village without using any tubes by utilizing coordinated infantry assaults from every ford on that river. These exposed the mg's and my sp guns dealt with them quickly, I lost three Su-76's in quick succession to hidden AT guns but soon switched my infantry to suppressing each one until my remaining SP's could silence them. I used the 152 as if my life depended on it, always using cover and constantly edging forward and reversing. I covered it with a DP mg and coordinated his LOS with the 152 at all times. The assault was moved along with heavy suppressing fire on all suspected enemy positions before receiving fire for them. At no time was a unit in solitary contact with the enemy - it always had fire support from nearby units. Within 45 minutes all VP points were under my control.

One of the main points here is that the assault moved so quickly that to register artillery would almost certainly have caused friendly casualties and also conceivably because of delays prevented my capture of all 3 widely spaced target zones. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by 17pounder