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Aragorn2002

German band of brothers movie?

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2 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Who was stuck to the Yalta agreement and FDR's poor choice of pro-communist advisors.

No.

And second, its ridiculous to insinuate the FDR handed eastern Europe over because he was pro-USSR. It was done because the Western allies didnt have the inclination to fight WW3. 

Edited by shift8

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Sounds to me like the whole "the Soviets were the greatest evil during WWII" argument. "Everything the Nazis did, the Soviets did worse!"

Is it true? Maybe? I'm not sure if you can really quantify it, and I think that arguing whoever killed the most people makes them the worst is not really an argument at all. 

I understand a lot of people who become wehraboos tend to dislike the Soviets more than the Nazis for this reason. 

The thing is, the Soviets were invaded and suffered horribly because of the Germans. Any hypotheticals (the Soviets were going to invade Germany!) are irrelevant because they didn't happen. Most importantly, the Soviets didn't get away with anything. Yes, they occupied half of Europe at the end of WWII, but immediately following WWII there was this little thing called the Cold War, which among many things was a direct response by the West to the Soviets and their shenanigans. Furthermore, the Soviets lost the Cold War, badly. Take a look at the Black Sea forums to see the results of that collapse. 

So yeah, the Soviets were bad, but that doesn't make the Nazis any less bad, and at the end of the day it was the Nazis who were the worst because they started the whole thing.

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5 minutes ago, shift8 said:

No.

And second, its ridiculous to insinuate the FDR handed eastern Europe over because he was pro-USSR. It was done because the Western allies didnt have the inclination to fight WW3. 

You are so wrong. FDR gave in much more than Stalin ever expected. But it is obvious you know little about this subject, so better to leave it at this. Just read the books.

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1 minute ago, Aragorn2002 said:

You are so wrong. FDR gave in much more than Stalin ever expected. But it is obvious you know little about this subject, so better to leave it at this. Just read the books.

Nope. Your making inferences that dont exist. 

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All this thoughtful back and forth related to a movie that has not even been released yet is quite interesting. However in 2016 would the majority of moviegoers really care if it is apologizing for the reputation of the Waffen SS. Would the mainstream of young people especially in the USA even know what the Waffen SS was? Would they even care that the President of the US at the time was suspected of having Communist advisors.

Its good fodder for WW2 related forums, but in the world of reality,  re-runs of "Breaking Bad" get more discussion time.

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You guys are much more hard core than I, but as a life-long reader of WW2 history I found this book particulary helpful in trying to understand what life and opinion in Germany was like during the war years. 

The German War: A Nation Under Arms, 1939-1945, Citizens And Soldiers , by Nicholas Stargardt. The book draws heavily on memoirs and letters written contemporaneous with the events, as well as later interviews with participants and their relatives.

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There are two very good WWII German films: Das Boot and Stalingrad (the German movie, as opposed to Enemy at the gates which, IMHO, stank).

People can make their own minds up about whether the Waffen SS were evil as an organisation. There is a lot of evidence that they were, indeed, evil. No new movie, however sympathetic, can change that. 

I see no reason why there should not be a movie about WaffenSS soldier experiences and why people should not be interested in seeing it regardless of how they perceive the nature of the organization. Many men fought in the Waffen SS and the elite formations were so unusual in many aspects that a film about them can be of interest. Mature observers can make up their own minds as to what elements of the narrative to filter out as propaganda.

Even a movie such as Fury about the experience of American tank crews at the end of the war was heavy with propaganda and inaccuracies. If one believes the last scene one would draw the conclusion that the Waffen SS were a bunch of idiotic amateurs who could not knock out an immobilized tank without losing half a battallion in the process, something I think even the most incompetent Russian commander of the early war months would not have managed.

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It is, its been out on Blu-Ray for a while. I'm  a fan of putting my money where my mouth is, and I took an opportunity to see it - not only is it actual cinematic garbage, but its apologist trite. 

Edited by Rinaldi

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5 hours ago, usgubgub said:

Is the movie out yet?

I couldn't find it yet on Kodi for you streaming peoples. But if you want a foreign volunteer Waffen SS movie check out "1944". Its a pretty fair flick.

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On 12. September 2016 at 0:09 AM, shift8 said:

 

Plus I think we all have better things to do than watch a bunch of mid-life crisis Nazi wanna be's make a movie about their lost dreams and sexual frustrations. 

 

Thanks for the warning. Saved me a few minutes time. My first impression, seeing the picture, was "This is Neo-Nazi crap."

My favourite German war movie is still "Die Brücke". The old version from the 60's, of course. No CGI, only one poor Sherman model, but still immensely touching.

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I have pretty much given up on the cinematic depiction of war and warfare. I would rather read a book on the same topic. Then go and find a good sim to play out scenarios. Even well made documentaries based on accurate history do not hold my interest compared to the book itself. If cinema can get younger people to enjoy learning, then great. But I find more seasoned folks like myself spend more time poking holes in video presentations than actually enjoying them. I think there might be a market for developers to team up with authors to combine a solid written history (a book with great maps; not a wimpy PDF file) with a equally solid computer war game in one neat package. Players enjoy learning about military history away from their PCs. I don't think cinema is the best medium.  

Kevin

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3 hours ago, kevinkin said:

I have pretty much given up on the cinematic depiction of war and warfare. I would rather read a book on the same topic. Then go and find a good sim to play out scenarios. Even well made documentaries based on accurate history do not hold my interest compared to the book itself. If cinema can get younger people to enjoy learning, then great. But I find more seasoned folks like myself spend more time poking holes in video presentations than actually enjoying them. I think there might be a market for developers to team up with authors to combine a solid written history (a book with great maps; not a wimpy PDF file) with a equally solid computer war game in one neat package. Players enjoy learning about military history away from their PCs. I don't think cinema is the best medium.  

Kevin

Well, I remember that I learned most from board games. I bought some Vietnam and Korea titles, just for the historical back ground.

Not sure about Computer Games. Sorry to say, but even titles like CM won't teach much of a historic a lesson.

As for movies: Yeah, nice. One has to admit, the REAL good one's bring across that there is more to war than facts and numbers.

Reading historical novels is not the same either. They tend to go over the top, too.

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2 hours ago, StieliAlpha said:

You mean all two books? ?Nope, that's to much reading.

In your case that might be true. And yet, I think the time has come to realize that we know little about what really happened. More and more historians see this and start to write amazing books about it. They are not revisionists or neo-nazi's, just good historians who base their findings on archives, facts and thorough research, instead of repeating the same old dubious stories.

Does a link to a movie about the Waffen SS indicate neo-nazi sympathies? Not to my opinion. It's just history, or at least history related. A lot of us are fascinated by that strange mixture of heroism and ruthlessness, that's all. Most of us watch movies with criminal heroes who massacre their way through life. Does that make us criminals? Or would we imitate their behaviour in our own life? Would we approve of such behaviour when it happens in front of our eyes?

As Roger Scruton says western culture has suffered immense damage because of disastrous ideals such as nazism, fascism and communism, or less disastrous, but often mishandled ideals like democracy. It has probably caused the downfall of western culture or will do so in the near future. The only way to stop this, is to understand what went wrong. And a lot went wrong. As an American one should know how and why US policy in ww 2 was heavily influenced by American communists and what the consequences were, because millions of people died because of it. 

 

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Kevinkin. The US policy of FDR and his advisors of giving Stalin almost all he wanted, without asking much in return. If you are interested in the subject I suggest you read 'Stalin's Secret Agents'. It describes this policy from Lend Lease to Poland and from China to Chiang Kai-Shek into detail. It's a real eye opener, no matter what your political conviction is. This US policy enabled Stalin to get his hands on millions of people and continue his bloody road through history. This book shows how at the same time Stalin did everything he could to damage the interests of the US and the rest of the free world. It's sobering reading really. This US policy was heavily influenced by a large number of pro-communists or even communists (many of them working for the Russians) around FDR, but also throughout the rest of government, army, press etc. who made sure that decisions made were in the interest of Moscow and were astonishingly succesful at it.

Edited by Aragorn2002

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Of the 60 million deaths in WW2, which ones does the book deem as avoidable if FDR/USA had selected a different policy on behalf of the US? Does the author suggest an alternate policy? Arm Nazi Germany to fight Stalin? Remain isolationist? That FDR had Marxist leanings is not news. That nations states spy and try to influence foreign policy is not news. 

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