.50 cal firing on my Panther, should that happen?

[Bulletpoint]

Just played a mission where I had some Panther tanks against an American force (AI controlled). Their infantry based .50 cal opened up against my (buttoned) Panther and kept firing at it, from the front, even though naturally it didn't do more than slightly damaging the optics. It also eventually gave away the position of the .50, so it seemed a pretty stupid thing to do.

Working as designed? 

Edited September 1, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[Bulletpoint]

And bonus Panther question: How come my panthers survive shots that deflect down from the mantlet into the hull (the infamous "shot trap"), while they get penetrated from shots that hit the mantlet straight on?

I thought it was the other way around - panther being strong on the mantlet front but weak against shots that deflect down?

[user1000]

Was he shooting at the back? A .50 shooting at the front not much good.

Sides not sure, but there is a bare area just above the tracks that i think is vulnerable you can see it here

A .50 could penetrate through a panthers rear engine area (causing immobilization or worse) right up into the crew area easily but the .50 cal gunner would have to be close. Also above that is the back of the turret where it may be lightly armored and there is a hatch back there too. Check the specs somewhere and see if you can find the armor amount back there.

 

I have a screen shot of me taking out a tank with one of my half-tracks an yes actually being credited with the kill that way (page 86 of screenshots)

Edited September 3, 2016 by user1000

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, user1000 said:

Was he shooting at the back?

Nope, he was shooting it straight in the teeth. I don't see why anyone would do that.

[Ironcross12]

On 02/09/2016 at 0:08 AM, Bulletpoint said:

And bonus Panther question: How come my panthers survive shots that deflect down from the mantlet into the hull (the infamous "shot trap"), while they get penetrated from shots that hit the mantlet straight on?

I thought it was the other way around - panther being strong on the mantlet front but weak against shots that deflect down?

Shooting a .50 cal at a Panther is pretty pointless. I do know the russians did try to knock out the Tigers and Panther Gun optics as that's all they could do sometimes as the armors was so strong. once the Gun Optics is gone the Tanks no longer combat ready and needs repairs.

 

Really could a .50cal really shoot through the back of the Panther? did this ever happen in real life combat?

[Placebo]

On 02/09/2016 at 0:08 AM, Bulletpoint said:

And bonus Panther question: How come my panthers survive shots that deflect down from the mantlet into the hull (the infamous "shot trap"), while they get penetrated from shots that hit the mantlet straight on?

I thought it was the other way around - panther being strong on the mantlet front but weak against shots that deflect down?

I have seen this quite a lot in FB, i put it down to 76 with the special tipped AT ammo.  What was firing at the panther ?

[Bulletpoint]

45 minutes ago, Placebo said:

I have seen this quite a lot in FB, i put it down to 76 with the special tipped AT ammo.  What was firing at the panther ?

Sherman 75s at 3-400 metre range, and a couple of M10 76 from about 600m distance. I'm seeing lots of deflections down into the hull, but none of them cause any damage.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[womble]

You shouldn't be seeing "lots" of those "shot trap" hits. They're pretty rare; I've seen about 2 to date. Might be that you're not seeing quite what you think you are. Got a replay to watch of any of 'em?

[Bulletpoint]

46 minutes ago, womble said:

You shouldn't be seeing "lots" of those "shot trap" hits. They're pretty rare; I've seen about 2 to date. Might be that you're not seeing quite what you think you are. Got a replay to watch of any of 'em?

Yes, I have several savegames showing shots that hit the bottom of the mantlet and deflect down into the hull, causing no damage. There's no ricochet text because apparently that text only appears if the ricochet causes a penetration on the point of second impact.

So what the savegame shows is a panther taking a "Hit: turret front" and then a hit decal appearing simultaneously on the bottom of the mantlet and on the front top hull.

If you're interested in the savegame, send me your email on a PM please.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[StieliAlpha]

On 6. September 2016 at 1:21 AM, ironcross13 said:

Shooting a .50 cal at a Panther is pretty pointless. I do know the russians did try to knock out the Tigers and Panther Gun optics as that's all they could do sometimes as the armors was so strong. once the Gun Optics is gone the Tanks no longer combat ready and needs repairs.

 

Really could a .50cal really shoot through the back of the Panther? did this ever happen in real life combat?

I don't think it was that rare. Pointless? Yes. But if the situation is desperate enough and no way out? Certainly, blast away. Probably better than sitting right and  hoping for th best. You might shock the tank crew or even hit something....

I agree, this scenario does not match what Bulletpoint describes.

[Ironcross12]

Yeah a late war German half track could deal with the .50 cal bullets.

I dont see one takeing out a panther even from behind as this is not realistic maybe if its happened its a bug 

[Bulletpoint]

3 minutes ago, ironcross13 said:

I dont see one takeing out a panther even from behind as this is not realistic maybe if its happened its a bug 

Bug or not, after I started playing the German campaigns I've noticed that it happens quite regularly when my Panther faces .50 cal, both tripod based and vehicle mounted variants. They happily fire away (till the Panther notices them).

[JoMac]

19 minutes ago, ironcross13 said:

Yeah a late war German half track could deal with the .50 cal bullets.

I dont see one takeing out a panther even from behind as this is not realistic maybe if its happened its a bug 

You meant to say, "The German late War HT can be dealt with from a .50 cal bullet"...Didn't you :-)

[JoMac]

On 9/1/2016 at 7:08 PM, Bulletpoint said:

And bonus Panther question: How come my panthers survive shots that deflect down from the mantlet into the hull (the infamous "shot trap"), while they get penetrated from shots that hit the mantlet straight on?

I thought it was the other way around - panther being strong on the mantlet front but weak against shots that deflect down?

I see that all the time against the Panther (not sure if I remember against other Armor), and it seems every Hit Decal that's against the Front Lower Half Turret gets the same Decal on Top of Hull.

I'm thinking it's some sort of Game Engine 'Reflection' (possible 'Bug' ?) and not an actual Hit 'Deflection'?...Or-...The Game Engine is showing Fragments as a Decal on Top Hull...Basically, just a Superficial Hit on top Hull that's being represented as an additional Hit Decal.  

Actually, this is a fairly good point to discuss in a New Topic... 

Joe

Edited September 12, 2016 by JoMc67

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, JoMc67 said:

I'm thinking it's some sort of Game Engine 'Reflection' and not an actual Hit 'Deflection' ?

Might be, but I don't think so. I've never seen a "ricochet" message without a penetration, so I assume it's just that the game only tells us about the ricochets that penetrate.

[user1000]

2 hours ago, ironcross13 said:

Yeah a late war German half track could deal with the .50 cal bullets.

I dont see one takeing out a panther even from behind as this is not realistic maybe if its happened its a bug 

yes it is realistic.. It sounds like you just don't want it to be true.  It can also penetrate a stug IIIs side armor. You would be surprised at what it could do.

And no a late war German half-track could not deal with .50cal bullets as you say.

Edited September 12, 2016 by user1000

[JoMac]

Now Now, User1000, can we be alittle more, well, User Friendly :-)...IronCross is still New here on these Forums.

In regards to .050 Cal...It can do some minor-major Damage (some possible penetrating) if several rounds hits the side Suspension area of most Medium Tanks (in between the Hull & Tracks), and in general even penetrate side Armor of Light Tanks.  

Edited September 12, 2016 by JoMc67

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

In regards to .050 Cal...It can do some minor-major Damage (some possible penetrating) if several rounds hits the side Suspension area of most Medium Tanks (in between the Hull & Tracks), and in general even penetrate side Armor of Light Tanks.  

I have noticed that sometimes, it will make slight damage to optics or the tracks, but that's about it. I don't think it makes sense to reveal your position in order to do that.

Also, I never see .50 open up against my PzIV or even PzII. Haven't done a real test of it, just anecdotal evidence. But it seems the panther is the only one to get this special treatment from the .50.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[user1000]

3 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

Now Now, User1000, can we be alittle more, well, User Friendly :-)

no need for elementary school teachings here, we are all big boys aren't we jomc?

[A Canadian Cat]

17 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Also, I never see .50 open up against my PzIV or even PzII. Haven't done a real test of it, just anecdotal evidence. But it seems the panther is the only one to get this special treatment from the .50.

That would be a bug - IMHO.  If you conduct such a test and find that the .50cal operators are indeed only targeting the Panther please let us know.

[Ironcross12]

On 12/09/2016 at 5:52 PM, user1000 said:

yes it is realistic.. It sounds like you just don't want it to be true.  It can also penetrate a stug IIIs side armor. You would be surprised at what it could do.

And no a late war German half-track could not deal with .50cal bullets as you say.

I did read somewhere with the sloped side armor it did stop heavy machine guns.

I did find this 

" The armour plates were designed to stop penetration by standard rifle/heavy machine gun bullets (like the Mauser 7.9X57mm bullet) by using both metal thickness and armour sloping. The fairly vertical front-facing plates were 14.5mm thick; the sides were steeply angled, V-shape and just 8mm thick, saving weight. These plates were both safe against the normal (non-tungsten) rifle AP round, which could pierce about 8mm of vertical armour. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._251

Really can pen a Stugs side armor.

I just don't see a .50 cal pening a Panther this does not seem right 

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

18 hours ago, ironcross13 said:

I just don't see a .50 cal pening a Panther this does not seem right 

It never penetrates the panther. The issue is that the .50 even chooses to shoot at all against a target it cannot really damage.

[Ironcross12]

On 12/09/2016 at 5:52 PM, user1000 said:

yes it is realistic.. It sounds like you just don't want it to be true.  It can also penetrate a stug IIIs side armor. You would be surprised at what it could do.

And no a late war German half-track could not deal with .50cal bullets as you say.

 

15 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

It never penetrates the panther. The issue is that the .50 even chooses to shoot at all against a target it cannot really damage.

I quote user1000. He said it can Penetrate a a Panther and Stug side armor. This can not be right and would love to see some evidence from the war that it could.

If it can in this game then its a bug that needs fixing. also If a .50 cal is firing at a panther when it has no chance is a bug also unless you direct fire at it.

As you may damage the optics. but to destroy a Panther is very unrealistic  

[womble]

.50cal SLAP can penetrate a medium tank's side armour, but that's 50 years out of period. No, even the proper HMGs weren't able to penetrate. I've tried opening up on a Panther's rear with 20mm cannon (Crusader AA) and that did nothing that I could tell, except get the tank's attention, terminally for the Crusader.

[user1000]

4 hours ago, womble said:

 No, even the proper HMGs weren't able to penetrate.

wishful thinking. I took out a tank already with my .50 HT just by nailing the back.

Edited September 18, 2016 by user1000