Learning the ropes of IFV combat

[antaress73]

I'm not sure if it needs to be the squad leader. One thing I know.. the scout two men team doesnt have a leader before getting in the vehicule and one of them becomes leader and the other machine gunner when they get into it. Also, It spots with difficulty without the team and much better with it inside.

 

 

 

[Jammersix]

If you unload a Bradley, split off two men from the infantry squad, and load them in the Bradley, that means there for four men in the Bradley. There is not another gunner, there is one gunner in the Bradley both before and after the squad adds two men.

I doubt these additional two men benefits sighting anymore than an additional two men anywhere would.

[antaress73]

10 minutes ago, Jammersix said:

If you unload a Bradley, split off two men from the infantry squad, and load them in the Bradley, that means there for four men in the Bradley. There is not another gunner, there is one gunner in the Bradley both before and after the squad adds two men.

I doubt these additional two men benefits sighting anymore than an additional two men anywhere would.

We are talking about something specific to the russian BMPs and BTRs. It doesnt apply to the M2 Bradley. They dont have a commander like the Bradley. The infantry squad leader or anyone else for that matter will act as commander and man the commander`s sensors, adding to spotting ability if he`s inside the vehicule. I dont know if there is a penalty if someone other than the squad leader mans the commander's position. 

[Jammersix]

I missed that. I thought you were including Bradleys. Yet another reason that He Who Wins Will Have The Bradleys!

[Kinophile]

I wonder if the new RUS Bradski will continue that bad practice of no commander. Kinda pointless to have a nice new weapons system if it literally does not have enough eyes to spot. 

I'd concur,  the BMP3M,  while no where equivalent,  is not useless, just outclassed. But it's 100mm will ruin a Brad's day very very quickly. 

For me,  for all the Brad's vampire like spotting ability,  what continually surprises me is its protection of the troops inside.  A shot that would total kill a BMP3m and it's cargo will certainly kill the Brad,  but not necessarily it's troops. Time and again I've seen a nearly complete US squad tumble out of a burning ruined Brad, pissed off and javelined up... 

Edited September 1, 2016 by kinophile

[antaress73]

I did some tests... 1 BMP-3M  at 300 meters open field against 2 strikers.

 

Only gunner and driver: average spotting time of strykers and engagement  : 11-12 seconds 

With scout team inside: 6-7 seconds 

With squad leader led team inside : 6-7 seconds 

BUT:

 

Average engagement cycle and destruction of the two strikers targets with scout team inside: 35 seconds

Average engagement cycle and destruction of the two strikers targets with squad leader Led team inside : 27 seconds 

So with squad leader led  3 man team inside (Split team in two equal parts) it doesnt spot faster but is faster at spotting and sequentially engaging and destroying two targets than with the 2 men scout team inside.

So it's best to use the squad leader led team even if you lose one dismount in the process compared with only splitting a scout team since your BMPS will be more deadly and better at engaging multiple targets which is more desirable than an additonnal dismount.

Edited September 1, 2016 by antaress73

[hattori]

I guess we could keep the platoon leader, machine gun team, and sniper team that come with Russian platoons in the vehicles instead of splitting the infantry squads and putting the teams with the leaders in.  It gives you the choice of whether your fire support is going to be vehicle based or not. 

[c3k]

Nice job finding how the Team Leader makes a difference.

 

Thanks.

[niall78]

I play the Russian side a lot. This is vital information I wasn't aware of. Thanks for the tips antaress73.

I find all sides ultra lethal in CM:BS. What sees first usually kills or cripples first.

Modern era requires a bit more patience in general compared to the WW2 titles. Sneaking small forces into positions to try and get spots on at least some of the OPFOR before you advance and being prepared to wait till your force generate those spots. Any major movement without reconnaissance in the battles I play usually end up with my units burning after a few turns. Even as the US non-KIA hits will often degrade an AFVs fighting ability dramatically - I've lost numerous main guns for instance on my Abrams to missile teams I never even spotted during the action.

I like Bradleys but they die very easy. I keep them well back over-watching from the backfield with their TOWs. I also dismount any forces inside as soon as any type of contact with the enemy is possible. This is vital for any type of APC or IFV from any of the forces in the game I feel. There's an ever present threat of mass-casualties any time a full infantry hauler is exposed to any type of AT fire. Artillery or air-power makes such full haulers dangerous even when traversing non-exposed parts of the map in CM:BS - this is a big difference from the WW2 titles where air and artillery are a lot less decisive.

Edited September 1, 2016 by niall78

[MOS:96B2P]

15 hours ago, antaress73 said:

We are talking about something specific to the Russian BMPs and BTRs. 

This also applies to the BTR?  This I did not know.  Thank you.

8 hours ago, antaress73 said:

So it's best to use the squad leader led team even if you lose one dismount in the process compared with only splitting a scout team since your BMPS will be more deadly and better at engaging multiple targets which is more desirable than an additional dismount.

This squad leader split and mount back into the vehicle is good for all BMPs (3s & 2s) and all BTRs (82s & 80A)?  

[Muzzleflash1990]

Just finished a quick battle probe with mostly BMP3s and BTRs with auto cannons and the difference is significant. Not only were they spotting faster, but I swear I was getting spots on more enemies than you otherwise would have (even if given large amounts of time). Bit unfortunate you have to leave at least two back in the vehicle, rather than just one, does leave the remaining "fire team" very brittle. I moved the vehicle up as the infantry progress, just outside of the typical BMP-3 explosive range - even if they ambushed my men, the reaction from the 100mm would punish them.

In fact I charged a Bradley from the rear at close range, and this time it did not spot me, turn around, and destroy my BMP-3 without my unit seeing it, like has happened so many times before - instead my unit spotted it rather quickly and destroyed it.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Muzzleflash1990

[Muzzleflash1990]

I just looked in the editor. Unlike the M2A3, the cavalry version of the Bradley (M3A3) does not come with "built-in" commander. Does that mean that if you dismount the recon team from a M3A3 it also suffers a spotting penalty?

[antaress73]

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

This also applies to the BTR?  This I did not know.  Thank you.

This squad leader split and mount back into the vehicle is good for all BMPs (3s & 2s) and all BTRs (82s & 80A)?  

Yes ... the BTRs have a commander's (leader) position to be filled by the infantry squad leader. It's a totally different doctrinal philosophy and you ignore it at your peril. It can be lethal for the enemy but more costly in terms of losses. They are switching away from it with the armata and boomerang/Kurganets because they dont have the necessary manpower to substain à high level of losses and also modern Russians are less inclined to accept lost lives.

Edited September 1, 2016 by antaress73

[TheForwardObserver]

@antaress73 Excellent information.

[Kinophile]

Isn't this tactic (leader stays nice and "safe" in his AFV)  exactly what happened in Aliens?.... 

It's such a detriment to the squad.  I'd FAR more prefer to have a properly crewed IFV and a proper full squad than this nonsense. How in God's name did it ever get past the NO WAIT THAT'S STUPID stage? 

[antaress73]

4 hours ago, TheForwardObserver said:

@antaress73 Excellent information.

Thanks !

[MikeyD]

90% of what you learned about tactics playing WWII should work for modern as well. Except things can turn a LOT more lethal very quickly. But whether its a Pak40 or a Kornet ATGM, an AT weapon hiding in a distant copse of trees in still an AT weapon hiding in a distant copse of trees. And a masking terrain feature is still a masking terrain feature. Its more about making adjustments in relation to the weaponry than learning a whole new method of warfighting.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

2 hours ago, kinophile said:

Isn't this tactic (leader stays nice and "safe" in his AFV)  exactly what happened in Aliens?.... 

It's such a detriment to the squad.  I'd FAR more prefer to have a properly crewed IFV and a proper full squad than this nonsense. How in God's name did it ever get past the NO WAIT THAT'S STUPID stage? 

IFV were originally concieved as a platform from which infantry would fight from, like literally shooting at people from the troop bay.  The troops would kick out every now and then to do things the IFV couldn't, but it makes sense if you view the BMP and the dismounts not as two units, but as a collected weapons system, with the squad leader controlling both.

The "real" life rendition is the squad leader goes wherever he's needed/makes more sense.  

[Jammersix]

Hasn't the concept of an IFV in battle full of troops been discredited?

[Kinophile]

QED. 

Also,  it's a heavier cost in BS as the smallest team is two men.

So you essentially have a redundant extra pair of eyes stuck in your gunned up tin lunch box.  Not only is your boots on the ground reduced but you now have 4 men as a nice juicy target.

OK fine,  BMPS/BTRs need their extra guy but it's a bit of a UI flaw that a basic RUS MI tactic is not properly  accounted for w/r to squad breakdown. 

There badly needs to be some kind of option such as "BAIL (-1)" , as in, all leave but one. 

This would not affect the min team size of 2 as that only takes effect once the walking bags of raspberry  jam are outside the vehicle. 

Edited September 2, 2016 by kinophile

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

6 hours ago, Jammersix said:

Hasn't the concept of an IFV in battle full of troops been discredited?

Supremely, and completely in ways not yet measurable in science for their magnitude.  However keep in mind the basic BMP 1/2/3 and the Bradley itself were designed before it had been entirely discarded.  So in that regard the stuff that's pretty hard coded into the basic vehicle in terms of dimensions remains influenced by that school of thought, and the vehicle commander remains the squad leader.

Re: M3

I think they do suffer a spotting penalty if the scouts are dismounted.  

In the real world...well Cav doctrine is written in jello to the degree that just who, or what dismounts changes widely.  Each M3 carries two "scouts" in the back.  In high intensity fights they're largely seen as crewmen to reload the TOW launcher although in yee olden days they'd also often be kicked out with an ATGM to augment the platoons AT capabilities on the defense.  

When dismounted generally the scouts from several vehicles would link in under a vehicle commander and become a dismounted scout section.  How this looked varied widely depending on the composition of the section, but assuming a two Bradley section, it'd be a five man scout section (the two scouts from each vehicle, plus the senior vehicle commander usually with ATGM, often with M240 too plus optics and radios), then the remaining Bradley commander would remain mounted and control the Bradleys.  

Again, varied widely.  19Ds are weird.  

[A Canadian Cat]

On 2016-09-01 at 2:16 AM, antaress73 said:

Only gunner and driver: average spotting time of strykers and engagement  : 11-12 seconds 

With scout team inside: 6-7 seconds 

With squad leader led team inside : 6-7 seconds 

BUT:

Average engagement cycle and destruction of the two strikers targets with scout team inside: 35 seconds

Average engagement cycle and destruction of the two strikers targets with squad leader Led team inside : 27 seconds

Awesome - nice work taking it that extra step to show how it effects engagement times.  I added the link to my FAQ list so next time we can point back to your work!

[hattori]

@antaress73 I would also like to thank you for the information and testing work, much appreciated.

[Erwin]

Ditto.  Very useful info.  Thank you.

[VladimirTarasov]

My advice: Never pick BMP-2... The gunner is always sleeping on the sight, and when he sees an enemy he doesn't want to shoot until 25mm rips him into pieces. I think there are spotting issues with the BMP-2 on a serious note. It doesn't notice armored vehicles 400 meters infront of him in open flat terrain.