The detection of minefields

[womble]

49 minutes ago, Pchandler43 said:

...to perform DETECTION and MARKING them for clearance later on, which is what I would like to see done in game.

Look closer then. Because that happens.

Engineers can spot mines from adjacent AS. It's just "slow". Slow, in that it takes a couple of minutes of careful, uninterrupted observation (much longer if they have to keep ducking incoming 7.92 rounds) to detect the presence of mines. Note that there are no "Achtung! Minen!" signs in game. All minefields are (unless announced by the scenario maker in some way) discrete, so deciding whether a given 64sqm of muddy ploughed field has been seeded with S-mines could easily take time.

The "Mark Mines" movement command allows the engineers to, wouldn't you know, MARK mines not only for later clearance (i.e. not covered in the timeframe of the game) but to permit their and their comrades safer passage through detected areas of mines. This, too, is a painstaking endeavour which takes, if the sappers are uninterrupted, a significantly shorter time than I think is realistic. That's 64sqm of mines found and neutralised at little or no risk of mishap in 2-3 minutes by probably 3 Engineers at most in any given engineer team. If you take a best case scenario and have 4 Engineers working, and it takes 4 minutes, that's a metre square per man per minute. Is that really too slow?

[Wicky]

??  Pchandler43

Mark mines is a special move command in which an engineer unit operates on a minefield to make it much less dangerous to infantry. Only infantry benefit from minefield marking. Antitank minefields can be marked, but this doesn't change their danger to vehicles. 

An order to mark mines is only allowed on a known minefield which is not already marked. Also, it is only allowed when the location of the engineer unit, or its last waypoint, is close to the known minefield. ("Close" here means in the same action spot, or in any of the eight adjacent action spots.)

A unit performing a mark mines move will sit still for two or three minutes, not even turning to face the direction of the mines. Then, at the start of a turn, you will notice that the minefield's warning sign turned from red to light yellow; in that same turn, the engineer will crawl onto the now-tamed minefield.

http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_mines

Edited August 30, 2016 by Wicky

[A Canadian Cat]

20 hours ago, Pchandler43 said:

 engineers moving with combat units in order to perform DETECTION and MARKING them for clearance later on, which is what I would like to see done in game.

Which we have right now in the game.  There is a mark mines command for doing just that.

 

19 hours ago, Pchandler43 said:

Personally I believe that engineer/sapper units should have an ability called "Detect mines" that slows them to a crawl, they cannot return while detecting mines, and when detected, the mines are MARKED (keyword). There absolutely exists precedence for this occurring while under fire before and during World War II, and while time consuming is not the same as the clearing of a minefield.

No need to reinvent the wheel.  Engineers can do that now in game.  Not quite as you outlined but they can detected mines in neighbouring action squares and once detected they can mark them.

I am not sure what is missing at the moment.  In the game finding minefields without stepping one one is hard.  But isn't that correct?  No one is advancing in combat and detecting mines at the same time. That's how I feel.

[Pchandler43]

I understand that, but you aren't understanding what I'm saying.

In order to mark a minefield, you first have to know one exists. So how do you do that? How do you detect the minefield short of blowing someone up by walking through one? There's no way to get infantry, much less sappers, to probe for mines in a suspected area. That function should be made available.

[Pchandler43]

19 hours ago, womble said:

Look closer then. Because that happens.

Engineers can spot mines from adjacent AS. It's just "slow". Slow, in that it takes a couple of minutes of careful, uninterrupted observation (much longer if they have to keep ducking incoming 7.92 rounds) to detect the presence of mines. Note that there are no "Achtung! Minen!" signs in game. All minefields are (unless announced by the scenario maker in some way) discrete, so deciding whether a given 64sqm of muddy ploughed field has been seeded with S-mines could easily take time.

The "Mark Mines" movement command allows the engineers to, wouldn't you know, MARK mines not only for later clearance (i.e. not covered in the timeframe of the game) but to permit their and their comrades safer passage through detected areas of mines. This, too, is a painstaking endeavour which takes, if the sappers are uninterrupted, a significantly shorter time than I think is realistic. That's 64sqm of mines found and neutralised at little or no risk of mishap in 2-3 minutes by probably 3 Engineers at most in any given engineer team. If you take a best case scenario and have 4 Engineers working, and it takes 4 minutes, that's a metre square per man per minute. Is that really too slow?

THAT is what I was wondering. If there was a way to actually detect minefields. So by having a sapper/engineer/bobthebuilder unit sitting next to squares that contain mines, they will EVENTUALLY be detected?

[A Canadian Cat]

Just now, Pchandler43 said:

In order to mark a minefield, you first have to know one exists. So how do you do that? How do you detect the minefield short of blowing someone up by walking through one? There's no way to get infantry, much less sappers, to probe for mines in a suspected area. That function should be made available.

Yes, there is.  If Engineers are next to a minefield action square they can detect that it has mines.  I am sure it is way less efficient than you want but it is there in the game.

[Warts 'n' all]

@ Pchandler43  ... Hey! How come your version of the game has got Bob the Builder in it, and mine hasn't? I'm going to write a stiff letter of complaint.

[womble]

6 hours ago, Pchandler43 said:

THAT is what I was wondering. If there was a way to actually detect minefields. So by having a sapper/engineer/bobthebuilder unit sitting next to squares that contain mines, they will EVENTUALLY be detected?

I'm sure this has been mentioned more than once before my post in this thread, and it's in the manual.

[Warts 'n' all]

6 hours ago, womble said:

it's in the manual.

Always the best place to look. 

[MikeyD]

Including Sherman Crab in the game is an inducement for people to build scenarios with proper minefields to breech. But as much as people love watching the flail tank at work they hate impenetrable mine fields even more. So Sherman Crab is a bit underutilized.

I recall back in CMSF I did a scenario that had Landmark text banners 'Suspected Minefield' floating over mine areas. Because of half of the utility of a minefield is in the enemy knowing its there and not even trying to attack from that direction.

[womble]

On 9/1/2016 at 8:53 PM, MikeyD said:

a scenario that had Landmark text banners 'Suspected Minefield' floating over mine areas. Because of half of the utility of a minefield is in the enemy knowing its there and not even trying to attack from that direction.

There are BFC-provided scenarios for at least BN which do the same thing. It's from playing those scenarios that I know engineers can spot mines from adjacent AS.

[Erwin]

I agree, W is absolutely correct.  The problem is that there are very few if any missions that allow enuff time, to go around with engineers spending several turns of sitting stationery trying to spot possible minefields.  You have know pretty accurately where there are minefields to ID them within the timeframe of a CM2 game.  Hence the "normal" method of only dispatching engineers to mark a minefield where a lesser value inf unit has just got blown up.

[snake_eye]

Since there are no proper way of dealing with mines easily, besides having a flail tank found in the most recent Combat Mission titles, I have my own way of using them as a deterrent while designing a scenario.

Usually, since mines are a deterrent I mostly use them within an area clearly indicated and  delimited by barbed wires. That is what is usually found in an area with built up defensive works. I use that to warn the player and to induce him to move another way to avoid the mines. If he avoids the mines, he will move in a kill zone usually covered by an MG, a mortar and or an ATG depending on what you have.

Another more tricky use is to lay some mines at crossroads and in front of inviting shelters like a house. Then there are no indication at all of them.

 

Now, you are going to tell me, how do we find them ?

There is only one way besides the flail tank. A trooper steps on one and you know that they are there. A vehicle rolls on an AT mine and you know it. In both case you get one casualty or more. It is only after the explosion that you will see a picket with a mine warning.

You can have an Engineer remain alongside the mine area for a long time and you might in some rare instances have one warning sign turning to green. But it takes an awful long time and if you are exchanging shots with the enemy, you can be sure of only one thing, that is that you better take your chance across the mine area than stay stuck were you are for an enigmatic mine defusing scarce possibility.

I have seen in the game few times an AT mine exploding and triggering another one close to it by sympathetic effect. But that does not help you much. You had already one tank blown up by one AT if another one, close to it explode it rather make things worse than it helps you.

As you see, there are not much things to do. You can say that it is fatality and do nothing or you can think of the spots where mines could be and avoid them the most you can. They are a perfect deterrent weapon and as such they are a Pain in the A...........In real life it is more or less the same, it takes time to get rid of them and you are never sure you have done it correctly. Gaining time is exactly what the enemy wants and the game in that way depicts that, since time you will need to find them and neutralize them.

Edited September 4, 2016 by snake_eye

[Erwin]

"You can have an Engineer remain alongside the mine area for a long time and you might in some rare instances..."

Generally I agree with SE's points.  However, the more experienced and IIRC the number of engineers in or adjacent to a known minefield (and not under fire) will make a big difference in how long it takes to mark a minefield.  With god quality (or even merely good quality) engineers it could take only a couple of turns.

But, it's still time consuming if it's a large minefield, and if they are under fire that will take a lot longer (if they succeed at all).

[axxe]

Any value in dropping artillery onto a minefield to detonate/destroy the mines?

[c3k]

Yes, but I forget which caliber is effective. There's a threshold, caliber-wise, which is needed to cross.

[Vanir Ausf B]

150mm and up

[c3k]

35 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

150mm and up

Ahh. Thanks. That must explain why so many combatants stopped using their 149mm field pieces.

[sburke]

20 minutes ago, c3k said:

Ahh. Thanks. That must explain why so many combatants stopped using their 149mm field pieces.

Or simply deals with their population surplus by sending all the malcontents in a surge. ? It is faster than trying to re equip your artillery park. 

[axxe]

I'm about to start a mission where I'm warned about a minefield blocking the approach to a bridge I must cross, so I did some testing with mines. Here's what I learned. More detailed test results will follow in a second post below. This is all v3.12, BTW.

==  Antipersonnel mines ==

When a personnel unit moves onto a mined AS one of three things happens:

    1) Mine explodes, causing AS to be marked with a red warning sign, and causing casualties.

    2) Mine does not explode, but unit detects minefield, causing AS to be marked with a red warning sign.

        - Note that both engineer and non-engineer units can detect a minefield.

        - Note that sitting and waiting on a mined AS may cause the mines to be detected as time passes.

    3) Mine does not explode and unit does not detect minefield.

Once an AS is detected as mined and marked with a red warning sign, other personnel units that move onto the square continue to risk detonating a mine. The mined AS seems to never run out of mines.

To make the mined AS safer, move an engineer unit to an adjacent or diagonally adjacent AS and have them Mark Mines onto the mined AS.  Note that more engineers will finish marking mines faster.  It seems that splitting an engineering squad into 3 teams and having them Mark Mines onto the mined AS from three adjacent squares will finish 3 times faster than a single team.

Once the engineers are finished marking the AS, the warning sign will turn yellow. A marked mined AS can still cause casualties! It is much safer than an unmarked mined AS, but not completely safe.

Vehicles and AP mines:

    - Jeep is destroyed by a single AP mine.

    - Tracked vehicles take damage and are eventually immobilized by AP mines

        - 1-2 mines stop a halftrack

        - 3-4 stop a Sherman tank.

    - Vehicles appear to always trigger AP mines.

    - Personnel units in a jeep or halftrack take casualties from AP mines, tank crews do not.

Blast and AP mines:

    - Mines adjacent to barbed wire which is blasted away with TNT remain active minefields.

==  Antivehicle mines  ==

Detected as with AP mines. Marking has no effect - vehicles will still detonate a vehicle mine. One AV mine will disable a Sherman tank.

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by axxe
typo

[axxe]

How to search for mine fields:

TL;DR:  Use a small engineering team (2-3 man) moving slow (crawling) to search for mine fields.

Details:

v3.12, weather warm, dry, clear, sunny, level grass, all troops US regular.

In a strip of ~30 action squares I set 10 AP mines. I then had a 2-man scout team move one action square at a time along the strip, such that they moved into and paused in each of the ~30 AS's. If the team took casualties I continued on with the remaining single guy til he also got killed or made it through. If he got killed, I continued on with another 2-man team. For each case below I ran this routine 10 times, for 100 minefield crossings.

First I tried with a typical infantry scout team, moving across the mine fields. They detonated 28% of the mines, and detected 4% without detonation.

Then I tried with a 2-man engineering team, also moving. They detonated only 10% of the mines, and detected 27% without detonation!

Then I tried having the 2-man engineering team slow, hunt, and quick.  With slow (allowing tiring but not tired) they detonated 7% and detected 32%. Hunting was worse than moving with 18% detonation and 16% detection. Quick was bad; I didn't bother finishing 10 runs. Do not quick across a minefield.

In sum:

                                                             % detected without detonation           % detonated

1-2 man regular Inf. moving                                         4%                                       28%

1-2 man engineer slow                                                32%                                        7%

1-2 man engineer moving                                            27%                                      10%

1-2 man engineer hunting                                           16%                                       18%

1-2 man engineer quick                                               0%?                                       a lot

Edited February 18, 2017 by axxe

[Erwin]

Nice to see the stats.   Did you experiment with mine-clearing tanks btw?

The problem with mines in scenarios is that one usually does not have enough time to detect them other than seeing someone getting blown up first.  It has been suggested to designers that all minefields should be surrounded by barbed wire to show the player where they need to use engineers to clear (or avoid).  The whole point of minefields in RL was to delay or channel enemy, so indicating where there is a minefield (even if it's a dummy!) is quite realistic.

Of course if one really wants to ambush an enemy, then keeping the location secret is fine.  But, assuming you want to let the enemy use engineers to mark em, one need to allow enuff time in the scenario as it is a slow process.

[Michael Emrys]

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

Of course if one really wants to ambush an enemy, then keeping the location secret is fine.  But, assuming you want to let the enemy use engineers to mark em, one need to allow enuff time in the scenario as it is a slow process.

It is also a standard practice for the defender to cover a minefield with some kind of fire, either MGs or mortars to inhibit and delay mine clearance as well as killing and/or wounding engineers, which is another reason for the popularity of mine-clearing tanks.

Michael

[axxe]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Nice to see the stats.   Did you experiment with mine-clearing tanks btw?

Since you asked so nicely ;-)

Flail tank vs. AP mines:

    - Flail tank happily flails across AP mines with lots of little explosions.

    - Each AS that had contained AP mines gets a green all-clear(?) sign with a big white X.

    - After flailing, I was able to run infantry back and forth across all 10 previously-mined AS's with no casualties.

Flail tank vs. AV mines:

    - Each AS with AV mines produced 2-4 big explosions and craters

    - Each AS that had contained AV mines gets a green all-clear(?) sign with a big white X.

    - Flail tank suffered no damage.

    - Sherman tank driving over cleared AV mine AS's caused no explosions and suffered no damage.

Flail tank vs. mixed mines:

    - Each AS with mixed mines produced 2-3 big explosions and craters.

    - Each AS that had contained mixed mines gets a green all-clear(?) sign with a big white X.

    - There are also a lot of smaller explosions, presumably AP mines detonating.

    - Flail tank suffered no damage.

    - Sherman tank driving over cleared AV mine AS's caused no explosions and suffered no damage.

[axxe]

After flail pass over AV mines and Sherman drive-through test.