Russia will convert all T-90As to T-90AMs as a less costly alternative to Armata

[antaress73]

Well batllegront was prescient again. The T-90am will be adopted in numbers by the russian army. The change is due to less favorable economic conditions. All T-90a tanks will be converted to T-90am.  Thats around 500-600 tanks. First batch will be received by the end of 2016.

Additionally , 150 T-72Bs will be converted to the T-72B4 or B3M standard. . It has a panoramic sight with thermals for the commander, a new gun and ammo, new FCS and Relikt armor. First batch of 32 will be received in the autumn. (2016)

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/russias-military-modernization-tank-fleets-and-ground-forces/5499117

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-first-post-syria-move-stronger-t-72-battle-tanks-15500

I would love to see the B3M/B4 in the game.

Edited August 11, 2016 by antaress73

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

This of course will totally happen like the Armata, T-95, Black Eagle, and other 152 MM armed tanks did.  And modernization will happen on time, and to standard.  Because everything has changed in Russian procurement system and the same things that have derailed virtually other Russian modernization effort no longer apply because reasons.  

[antaress73]

T-90am is not as big an improvement as the armata .. quite doable. They wont fail forever . In fact , this is not a totally new tank . They may not modernize all of them .. but even 200 will mean that battlefront was right in including them in the game. In fact, Steve himself preferred that course as more realistic for Russia than the Armata program. 

Edited August 12, 2016 by antaress73

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

"They won't fail forever"

Here's the thing.  If virtually every time the same factors have torpedoed every attempt to accomplish a given task, and those factors remain entirely unchanged, simple repetition is not enough to cause a success.  If the fact you were 300 lbs overweight and had never run more than 400 feet in a go in your life held you back from being a champion marathon runner, simply trying another marathon without addressing the weight or the running ability likely means you're pretty doomed.  Same deal with Russian military procurement, there's a lot of low number or phantom systems, all of which were supposed to redefine warfare tactics extreme, that have done pretty much nothing of the sort.

Also interestingly could you find an article discussing these plans sometime after January?  You'd think if factories were tooling up to crank out T-90AMs in production quantities four months from now, there'd be more than the howling silence and the "Armata will succeed!" mumblings.  

[antaress73]

13 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

"They won't fail forever"

Here's the thing.  If virtually every time the same factors have torpedoed every attempt to accomplish a given task, and those factors remain entirely unchanged, simple repetition is not enough to cause a success.  If the fact you were 300 lbs overweight and had never run more than 400 feet in a go in your life held you back from being a champion marathon runner, simply trying another marathon without addressing the weight or the running ability likely means you're pretty doomed.  Same deal with Russian military procurement, there's a lot of low number or phantom systems, all of which were supposed to redefine warfare tactics extreme, that have done pretty much nothing of the sort.

Also interestingly could you find an article discussing these plans sometime after January?  You'd think if factories were tooling up to crank out T-90AMs in production quantities four months from now, there'd be more than the howling silence and the "Armata will succeed!" mumblings.  

I agree with repetition ... but what we know in the west and what is happening could be very different. They probably changed a few things and shook things up. I dont read russian and most of the best sources are in russian. There could much more data available using russian open sources. They are pretty critical of the government for the few articles I tried to read using google translate. Drove me crazy. Western sources are usually pretty outdated. For all we know.. there could be a bataillon of them operational and we wouldnt find an article in the western press.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

1 minute ago, antaress73 said:

I agree with repetition ... but what we know in the west and what is happening could be very different. They probably changed a few things and shook things up. I dont read russian and most of the best sources are in russian. There could much more data available using russian open sources. They are pretty critical of the government for the few articles I tried to read using google translate. Drove me crazy. Western sources are usually pretty outdated. For all we know.. there could be a bataillon of them operational and we wouldnt find an article in the western press.

But again, following that logic, how do we know the US doesn't operate 40 foot nuclear battle robots completely in secret?  

It's really hard to totally 100% disprove something.  However the chatter  and indicators for a Russian fielding of a new tank type seem to indicate there's still some significant problems in the pipeline, and nothing indicates T-90AMs or something beyond the T-72B3 being in service in four to five months.  

[antaress73]

any russian speaker here can look for additonal info on the state of the T-90AM program as referenced in that article from january ? any updates on the russian side of things ? 

Edited August 12, 2016 by antaress73

[antaress73]

4 minutes ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

But again, following that logic, how do we know the US doesn't operate 40 foot nuclear battle robots completely in secret?  

It's really hard to totally 100% disprove something.  However the chatter  and indicators for a Russian fielding of a new tank type seem to indicate there's still some significant problems in the pipeline, and nothing indicates T-90AMs or something beyond the T-72B3 being in service in four to five months.  

I was not talking about four of five months ... more a year... which would put the T-90AM at the end of the game's timeframe.

[antaress73]

also in small quantities... like 75 of them.. but still a big step up from "hypothetical to beef up the russians in the game"  to actually being adopted and fielded by the russian army. So prescient from Battlefront.

Edited August 12, 2016 by antaress73

[John Kettler]

antaress73,

Believe you may've missed something significant. If the Russians can pull off what's described in the quote, the the real T-90AM could wind up being considerably more potent than the CMBS T-90AM.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/russias-military-modernization-tank-fleets-and-ground-forces/5499117

"At least one T-90AM with the 2A82 125mm tank gun developed for the T-14 is undergoing tests at Nizhniy Tagil, and upgraded vehicles could be delivered to Russian units as early as 2016 if the Russian MOD desires it."

Since the 2A82 is the T-14's 20% more powerful cannon, the real T-90AM may well have considerably bigger bite than is modeled in the game. I'm not at all sure how the Russians could make this work, certainly to T-14 performance, since my understanding is that the major problem for the T-72 and T-90 was the inability, because of carousel limits, to put enough propellant in the gun to be on par with NATO 120 mm guns. Presuming the upgunning can occur, I'd expect that there would still be real improvement over the 2A46M because the longer barrel would allow more total impulse to be delivered to the projectile. I don't believe the Russians can do anything to increase carousel size since that dimension is hull width limited. Therefore, I believe that 2A82 upgunning would yield improved penetration and greater battlesight range, but I don't know how much more. Someone with some heavy duty skills will need to figure that one out.

Suggest you cross post this thread to the Armata thread.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

Edited August 12, 2016 by John Kettler

[Vanir Ausf B]

The T-90AM article is from January 2015 and I haven't heard anything about it more recently.

T-72B3M to the VDV is fact, to the best of my knowledge.

[antaress73]

39 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

The T-90AM article is from January 2015 and I haven't heard anything about it more recently.

T-72B3M to the VDV is fact, to the best of my knowledge.

You're right, 2015. But i've read elsewhere that conversion of t-90as to t-90am standard is going ahead.

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

The article is from 2016, but the embedded video is from 2016.

Regards,

John Kettler

[L0ckAndL0ad]

7 hours ago, antaress73 said:

any russian speaker here can look for additonal info on the state of the T-90AM program as referenced in that article from january ? any updates on the russian side of things ? 

You're imagining stuff. They did not say they're going to do it. MOD said it would consider UVZ's offer in 2016. UVZ, as many other developers/manufacturers, offers stuff left and right, all the time. Doesn't mean a thing.

[VladimirTarasov]

Russian MoD isn't buying any T-90AMs... T-72s are being upgraded to B3 standard, T-14s are starting mass production in 2017-2018. I'm not even sure if B3Ms will be bought. Russian MoD is making a mistake in the tank sector, I'd at least upgrade B3s to B3Ms.

[antaress73]

9 hours ago, L0ckAndL0ad said:

You're imagining stuff. They did not say they're going to do it. MOD said it would consider UVZ's offer in 2016. UVZ, as many other developers/manufacturers, offers stuff left and right, all the time. Doesn't mean a thing.

They specifically say they were going to upgrade the T-90As to AM standard . This is not imagined. If they changed their minds again or the article is incorrect that's not my fault.

[antaress73]

8 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Russian MoD isn't buying any T-90AMs... T-72s are being upgraded to B3 standard, T-14s are starting mass production in 2017-2018. I'm not even sure if B3Ms will be bought. Russian MoD is making a mistake in the tank sector, I'd at least upgrade B3s to B3Ms.

The b3s are severely criticized in the russian army itself. Dont know why they dont upgrade them at 500 000 a piece to make the changes.

[VladimirTarasov]

16 minutes ago, antaress73 said:

The b3s are severely criticized in the russian army itself. Dont know why they dont upgrade them at 500 000 a piece to make the changes.

Yeah antaress, B3s are criticized heavily. The only reason being that it doesn't have a panaromic sight for the commander.

[L0ckAndL0ad]

50 minutes ago, antaress73 said:

They specifically say they were going to upgrade the T-90As to AM standard . This is not imagined. If they changed their minds again or the article is incorrect that's not my fault.

Provide a direct quote, please.

31 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Yeah antaress, B3s are criticized heavily. The only reason being that it doesn't have a panaromic sight for the commander.

Uuhm, not "the only reason". There are many reasons to criticize that "tank", its authors and people who put them into service. The thing is, criticism doesn't bother any of them. They don't care much of anything as long as they can "пилить бабло".

Edited August 12, 2016 by L0ckAndL0ad

[Lethaface]

41 minutes ago, antaress73 said:

They specifically say they were going to upgrade the T-90As to AM standard . This is not imagined. If they changed their minds again or the article is incorrect that's not my fault.

That's the important issue here: many articles feature some incorrect information or interpretation of information. So when according to an article written by medium Z, organization/person X says that event Y will happen, you should not take Y for granted. The only fact to be gathered from this article is that someone said something would happen. That doesn't mean something will in fact happen.

[VladimirTarasov]

36 minutes ago, L0ckAndL0ad said:

Provide a direct quote, please.

Uuhm, not "the only reason". There are many reasons to criticize that "tank", its authors and people who put them into service. The thing is, criticism doesn't bother any of them. They don't care much of anything as long as they can "пилить бабло".

Are there any plans for the B3M? I cant find anything recent about any plans.

[Splinty]

3 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Yeah antaress, B3s are criticized heavily. The only reason being that it doesn't have a panaromic sight for the commander.

I would think that being a death trap might have something to do with the criticism.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

2 hours ago, Splinty said:

I would think that being a death trap might have something to do with the criticism.

Rather that.  I think the Pinto has a better reputation.  

[antaress73]

Indeed, I would not fight in one. I value my life too highly. I went inside a t-72M once .. so small. No space for anything getting through the armor to avoid you and the ammo. À fiery screaming death is what awaits you if hit by anything heavy and western. (It can survive RPG penetrations though) Thats why the armata is so important and they should empty the coffers for them. Even T-90AMs would be an improvement.

Edited August 13, 2016 by antaress73

[antaress73]

6 hours ago, L0ckAndL0ad said:

Provide a direct quote, please.

Uuhm, not "the only reason". There are many reasons to criticize that "tank", its authors and people who put them into service. The thing is, criticism doesn't bother any of them. They don't care much of anything as long as they can "пилить бабло".

Listen to the video that John Kettler posted. They clearly say the MOD announced they would upgrade all T-90as to T-90AM standard.