Improvement suggestions

[Erwin]

That's what I was thinking as well.  When the shell arrives at supersonic speed, one experiences the explosion first, then the sound.  We're just used to old war movie sounds.

[Kevin2k]

7 hours ago, Kaunitz said:

It's simply the overall quality of the sounds and the improvement potentials I've mentioned above (volume decreases too fast over distance, no differentiation between close and distant sounds). I can't tell how realistic or unrealistic individual weapon sounds are, but the the above mentioned issues are certainly "unrealistic". Generally speaking, other games' sound just strikes me as vastly more immersive (e.g. Post Scriptum).

When I wrote Hollywood I was actually remembering these sound mods in the past for Call of Duty 1 or Ghost Recon 1. Where it seems everyone had their idea on how an M-16 or AK-74 etc. should sound like, and it spawned lots of sound mods of dubious origin. It seemed to me that the only way to do it proper, is to use the sounds from the party that has the biggest budget, as  to shoot the actual guns and record them consistently in a suitable  environment. Then keep the sounds like that without making them more catchy through editing.

What you replied is a good point though. In ArmA 2 the Sound travel delay and other effects are present and it sure is a nice touch. The sound travel delay is most obvious there when using the stationary howitzers. 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

14 hours ago, Kevin2k said:

In ArmA 2 the Sound travel delay and other effects are present and it sure is a nice touch. 

That feature is in CM2 as well. Just wondering what CM short coming you are referring too?

[Kevin2k]

Good to know, I will try to notice it next time.

>Just wondering what CM short coming you are referring too?

Did I mention any such? My messages in this topic were about reflecting on how typically every wargame gets mods with user-gathered replacement weapon sounds. And that I usually think these mods are less realistic, just more catchy.

[Bud Backer]

The sound travel delay is actually quite interesting, on large maps. On several occasions I’ve heard an explosion and it would catch my attention but I’d be confused what happened. Going back and replaying I’d eventually discover artillery ranging somewhere distant and hidden by trees or buildings... it’s rather cool.  

[RockinHarry]

While always a matter of taste I tackled CMBN sounds a bit for personal purposes. Less Hollywood, more real...as much as the game´s sound engine allows.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/134719-any-more-interest-in-cmbn-or-any-ww2-sound-mods/

[BornGinger]

Another improvement with line of sight/line of fire I'd like to see is the ability to use destroyed buildings as concealment for vehicles and guns while waiting for enemy vehicles and troops to come close enough.

When it comes to the sound in the game, I'd welcome different sounds without the long distant shooting. There is a mod with two sound files without any shooting, but those two files don't have the wind or rain in them either. So sound files for autumn, winter, rain and so on without the distant (sometimes not so distant) rumble from artillery would be great to have.

Edited June 7, 2019 by BornGinger

[Kaunitz]

Regarding sounds, it would be nice if the devs could include sound in the "fog of war". I.e. if you have no contact on a unit at all, you should not be allowed to hear its fire sounds and pinpoint the location of otherwise hidden enemy units very accurately just by listening (because the volume of the firing sound decreases very quickly over distance, so you just need to figure out where the sound is the loudest). I suppose that this sound-pinpointing is unintended?  It could be fixed elegantly if the volume of the sounds would stay at maximum for a longer distance from its source, so that players could only locate the origin of the fire sounds more roughly ("MG fire is coming from this village!" NOT: "MG fire is coming from this house!").

Edited June 13, 2019 by Kaunitz

[Erwin]

Related to this is the fact that in CM2 a sound contact is accurate.  If one area fires at a sound contact in CM2 it is usually effective.  In CM1 sound contacts were much more vague and area firing at a sound contact in CM1 was much less effective.

Have wondered which method of simulating this is more accurate re RL.

[RockinHarry]

10 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Related to this is the fact that in CM2 a sound contact is accurate.  If one area fires at a sound contact in CM2 it is usually effective.  In CM1 sound contacts were much more vague and area firing at a sound contact in CM1 was much less effective.

Have wondered which method of simulating this is more accurate re RL.

think it all very much depended on terrain (dispersal, many hardly locatable echoes), weather (fog, rain muffling sound), soldier skills and very much important, range to originating sound contact (or source). Since speed of sound is modelled in the game, one can "feel" effects of fire before one has a chance to start locating the origin, particularly at longer and longest ranges. So if not "cheating" by moving around the cam in WEGO, one should have some difficulties locating sound origins actually. For same purpose I made my "no enemy unit icons" mod some time ago to improve FOW effects to a level I like personally.

[MikeyD]

"...Less Hollywood, more real".

The problem with  tailoring sounds is it place-specific. You watch Youtube clips. A rifle being fired at one test range sounds like a blunt "Whump!", At another test range its "Crack!" The same gun at a third test range sounds like "BOOM!" with the sound echoing off the surrounding hills.

[RockinHarry]

3 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

"...Less Hollywood, more real".

The problem with  tailoring sounds is it place-specific. You watch Youtube clips. A rifle being fired at one test range sounds like a blunt "Whump!", At another test range its "Crack!" The same gun at a third test range sounds like "BOOM!" with the sound echoing off the surrounding hills.

correct MikeyD. I´d used mostly the "crack" types as a base and then did the equalizing and universally smoothing to more of the "Whump/Boom" types in my audio edit app. It´s a trade off, but at last I got fairly equally good sounding results all over the place (map). Same for voice files (cut the bass and smooth the highs). Not to everyones taste maybe, but i like it.

[Frenchy56]

Really, the sound of a firearm depends on which way the gun is facing compared to your position, the temperature, the environment (hills or buildings it may bounce off of) and et cetera. If you want a good combat sound system, look at Squad's. Post Scriptum, its spinoff set during Market Garden, recently updated its own sound system to bring it up to its standards as well.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Frenchy56

[RockinHarry]

7 minutes ago, Frenchy56 said:

Really, the sound of a firearm depends on which way the gun is facing compared to your position, the temperature, the environment (hills or buildings it may bounce off of) and et cetera.

yes and the game engine can´t reflect the many different sonical environments properly. Hardly a game can do this as it requires live conversion of sounds right at the cam position. A firefight in a Stalingrad factory surely sounds very different from the mids of the Ardennes forest and the like. Leaving the gun tech sound stuff aside, which needs some standardization to get it all to work.

Edited June 14, 2019 by RockinHarry

[Kaunitz]

I'm aware that weapons will sound very differently depending on the "atmospheric" situation (humidity, echo, etc). However, that does not change my opinion that the stock sounds are rather "meh" and there is a reason why practically every CM game found on youtube uses a soundmod. And as mentioned, it would be nice if - in a future new engine - there were at least a "close to camera" and a "distant to camera" (cutting down the higher frequencies a bit?) sound for a shot/explosion. 

[RockinHarry]

38 minutes ago, Kaunitz said:

I'm aware that weapons will sound very differently depending on the "atmospheric" situation (humidity, echo, etc). However, that does not change my opinion that the stock sounds are rather "meh" and there is a reason why practically every CM game found on youtube uses a soundmod. And as mentioned, it would be nice if - in a future new engine - there were at least a "close to camera" and a "distant to camera" (cutting down the higher frequencies a bit?) sound for a shot/explosion. 

yep, that would be nice, but true 3D positional audio with live equalizing/echoing could be a very very performance intensive affair. No idea if the (OGL) game engine is any capable of that. New game engine maybe. Most the sound mods I´ve heard at YT to me sound oftenly much worse than original to be honest. Pumping bass and raised levels beyond clipping is not quite a solution for a good overall sound.

Edit: bits of a half assed temporary solution could be tagged sounds. I.e if the cam is in the middle of urban environment, then play a (tagged) bouncy sound. If it´s indoor, play a more bassy and reverberant sound and so on. Some of that has been tried to be modded in to the ARMA game series. No idea if that ever succeded in satisfying manners though.

Edited June 14, 2019 by RockinHarry

[Kaunitz]

Okay, so I’ve made my last summary of this thread on 27th September here: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/123157-improvement-suggestions/?do=findComment&comment=1763655 Since then, a lot of new suggestions were brought up by the community, so it’s time for another summary. Note that I try not to repeat anything from the old summary (fortifications, fortifications! ^^) and I’m not listing title-specific stuff that only applies to a single particular title. There is no particular order, no detailed reasoning - it's just a quick list. I also included the more radical/crazy ideas.   Force selection/quick battle set-up Let us input the point budgets freely Scroll(wheel) function in force selection screen “random anything but night” option for daylight selection The ability to attach smaller formations to larger ones  The ability to set all vehicles as either genuinely dismounted or as ammo dumps across all the games  Aesthetical/graphical Fix the light/shadow issue where terrain has light/shadow on opposite sides of the shading for houses and troops. (especially occurring under dusk/dawn conditions?) More movie modes (although they don´t necessarily need having a movie style touch) from the ALT-M key combo.  User Interface A wind direction indicator on the compass tooltip - Ground type is displayed alongside mouse pointer when plotting movement/fire orders. Further possible options from the ALT+I key combo could  be "only show enemy AFV", "only show enemy ARTY" and similar when things on the map become somewhat confusing. Would be nice if they would let us toggle [the visual indicators of] all fire orders on/off like we can with movement orders. Would make it much easier to remember to stop area firing units. Gameplay/Aircraft Anti Aircraft: Some kind of indication (animation, onscreen message) whether you have shot down, damaged, forced away, or missed enemy aircraft. (MOS:96B2P has andwered that there is some kind of feedback) Aircraft shadow flying over the battlefield.   Editor/map, scenario and campaign creation (also see Force Selection) Ability to import map states from saved games. Ability for map states to carry over to the next battle in the same campaign. Shortcut/functions Ctrl-S (save) & Ctrl-Z (undo) If/then triggers for the AI Random map generation Better interface for flavor objects Let us place minefields/foxholes/barbed wire etc. in the 2D view of the editor Let us lay out AI plans in the 3D view of the editor A script (or something) that allows a map designer to quickly create a ruined version his map. A brush tool that randomly assignes craters and damages buildings it goes over?  Reserves arrive on map when position on map is reached. Opens up possibilities for designers both in terms of when friendly/enemy units arrive but also narratively like position reached = prisoners located. New Victory Condition - Objective Held/Taken within 'X' period of time.  32 Ai groups instead of only 16  Dynamic weather that can change during the course of a battle. (Pre-set by Scenario Designer). High chainlink fence. A fence you can see and shoot through but infanry can not climb over/move through. Ability to place dead soldiers on the map in the editor Treetrunks are too thick in general.   Gameplay/vehicles Make vehicles take longer to fire off the first shot (a loading task prior to rotating/taking aim; linked to the issue that vehicle crews have magically pre-loaded the appropriate type of round for their target) Functional fire-ports, crews should be able to toss hand grenades out of slits etc. Tank-riders should be allowed to area-target “directionally”, i.e. not aim at a fixed point but instead fire in a certain aspect/direction (that stays the same while the vehicle moves). Gameplay/soldier behaviour Have infantry stay on one side of a low wall when running along it. Right now, they jump back and forth over it. Also often affects hedges etc. infantry behaviour under any kind of shelling (even if in perfect cover, units decide to leave their cover to run around in the open and get killed like headless chicken) - this really is a major issue Squads should stay within say 3x Action Spots max (1x Action-Spot per Team), and not spread out half-dozen Action Spots when moving  Gameplay/LOS related A visual display/overlay of the LOS map in-game, so that you can tell which spots can be seen from this spot, unambiguously. Improved line of sight so the squads see through the woods exactly what the player can see from the same spot would be great to have. And improved line of fire so the squads can shoot at what they see even if they are further into the woods. Gameplay/new features & commands Road/formation following Fires Un-acquire command Ability to sync up commands between units. For example - Unit Y does not try to complete waypoint A, until Unit Z reaches waypoint B.  Off map support - "Repeat last mission" option for off map artillery and mortars. ROE-toggle for units: fire-at-will, return fire and hold fire 'checkbox' that could be ticked when placing any kind movement order wich would instruct the selected unit to NOT halt at the waypoint but rather move straight through to the next one Cellars, staircases Camouflage for vehicles, guns, men, fortifications Another speed mode [i.e. movement order], called mixed speed or jinking  via a colored line armor or soldiers can do it, should throw the AT gunners aim off nicely. Crouched run. Some way of moving faster than the crawl while keeping a relatively low profile.  A new target order exclusively for throwing grenades (while staying prone/in cover, if possible).  An easier way (requiring fewer clicks) to make soldiers stay prone but NOT withhold their fire.  for improved fortifications, esp. bunkers: shutters (might work similar to open up/button up orders for vehicles) Gameplay/general The assignment of soldiers to “split” units: The binocular-equipped squad leader should rather stay with the MG/gun group rather than with the rifle/assault group. Assault-orders: the gun group should be doing the overwatch. If only one unit sees incoming enemy fire, and that unit gets destroyed during the turn, then those enemy bullets/shells should not be visible to the player during turn playback. make tank commanders other people sticking out of vehicles harder to hit while vehicle are on the move,  The crew of a tank or halftrack should be able to operate any vehicle of the same kind (tank for tank crew and halftracks for halftrack crew) Any crew or squad unit should be able to drive a lorry. Smaller = more action spots: The square areas where to move units (men and technical equipment) could be smaller as a way to have more variation in where to position them Ability to use destroyed buildings as concealment for vehicles and guns while waiting for enemy vehicles and troops to come close enough. Other “Achievements”: For battles and campaigns a way to determine if you beat it or not a check mark or dot and for which side. Locking the cam to friendlies in first person view, as well as an automatic zoom (6x) for units having a binoc with just one key press. Maybe adding a special view for AFV gunners would be equally nice. This is to enable seeing of what you´d see in real life, without having a free flight cam or any the view modes above 1 to your avail in the game. To ease movement plotting in such a mode I´d add the same time sort of bitmap map layer (similar or equal to the one loadable in map editor) covering the real 3D terrain, but let you use any the view modes (1-9), inluding free flight./// Would be nice if such a mode could be enforced by a scenario maker, maybe with the addition of a bonus to victory points. Sound improvements fog of war improvements: no tracers option, no sound-pin-pointing of units, option to disable enemy icons completely, no fire impact effects (tiny fires, explosions when bullets hit trees, splashes of dirt when they hit the ground, etc) generated by the fire of unspotted units contacts shared via C2 are never updated ( http://community.battlefront.com/topic/126539-test-indicates-c2-contact-sharing-is-broken-when-enemy-moves/?tab=comments#comment-1739798 )

 

Edited June 15, 2019 by Kaunitz

[RockinHarry]

@Kaunitz I support your suggestions entirely. That sounds like a new game and engine for sure, likely not to be seen for the next couple of years though. Also BFC got to hire at least an additional programmer and modeller/animator and maybe they can be "hired" from passionate to the game ones for free (more or less). But off course it´s their game and their visions on what the game is about to evolve. Hopefully they´re aware that time does not stand still and wargaming alternatives exist in plentiful amounts, with more on the horizon. As always.... all IMHO.   

[Kaunitz]

To be honest my only major gripe with the game is the lack of fortifications and the related over-the-top casualty rate of infantry and the tactical implications that come with it. That is assuming that the "let's leave this perfect cover during the artillery barrage" behaviour is considered a bug and will get fixed some day.

My other gripe, map design, is up to me (and other mapmakers if they think the same) to change.  

Stricter fog of war would be nice to have, but the graphical effects (tracers, icons, bullet impacts) can be modded, as you've begun doing in your realism pack mod. Only sound-pinpointing remains a problem. But most players are gentleman enough that I'd trust them not to make any use of it. 

CM titles are still light years ahead of other games. I don't see any competition anywhere remotely close on the horizon. And I'm actually very happy with the game so that I don't really feel the need for competition. Most of the things listed here refer to rather minor problems. I'd say that improvement suggestions are proof of the passion and love that players have for CM. Love and frustration are always closely intertwined.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Kaunitz

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Kaunitz said:

CM titles are still light years ahead of other games. I don't see any competition anywhere remotely close on the horizon. And I'm actually very happy with the game so that I don't really feel the need for competition. Most of the things listed here refer to rather minor problems. I'd say that improvement suggestions are proof of the passion and love that players have for CM. Love and frustration are always closely intertwined.

Yep, they´re lone leader in that little niche for sure. But who is limited to just enjoy & play tac 3D games nowadays? Me not. I´ve half a dozen very good wargames on my HD that demand more of my attention for sure.

[Xorg_Xalargsky]

That's a fine list of suggestions, but some of them are outsized in scope compared to others.

For example "random map generation" would take extreme amounts of difficult programming time in order for the algorithm to generate anything more than a barren grassland with random specks of trees and other ground types. The complexity is magnified when you have to consider that each game offers multiple types of geographies. 

[Kaunitz]

I know, I know. That's why I've said that I've also left the more "crazy" ones in.   Maybe not so crazy one and I'm sure it must have come up somewhere already: What about friendly fire? While the AI probably can't cope with it that well, it would add some interesting depth, i.e. complicate planning in a realistic way, for H2H battles. Some weapons could play their strengths (arced trajectory), other would show their weaknesses more and require more complicated plans --> infantry forced to leave fire corridors clear unless the support comes from an elevated position.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Kaunitz

[RockinHarry]

16 hours ago, Xorg_Xalargsky said:

That's a fine list of suggestions, but some of them are outsized in scope compared to others.

For example "random map generation" would take extreme amounts of difficult programming time in order for the algorithm to generate anything more than a barren grassland with random specks of trees and other ground types. The complexity is magnified when you have to consider that each game offers multiple types of geographies. 

Hm.....not really thaaaat sure about this. The only random map generators I know about (ATM) in other wargames is the old Steel Panthers series of games (SP:WAW and WinSPWW2), both of which I have still installed and fairly good experiences with. The random map generation is executed in 2D (off course), based on a couple of user input or random variables and/or on numerous pre configured areas. In example an Ardennes 1944 base variable set when executed creates an almost unlimited amount of random maps of a similar type, typical for a 1944 Ardennes landscape. Weather and ground parameters not even yet accounted for. Switch between winter or not winter at a key click. 

No idea how much of a coding effort in CMX2 it would be to create a similar map generation method, but I have no doubts it would be doable. The 3D map is auto created after it got worked on and finished in 2D anyway.

And not to forget, we had/have this in CMX1 already. I´d used the random maps there as base for my own mission designs successfully. I.e deleting everything but the contours and building up surface terrain from scratch again. To me personally a random map generator is rather unimportant, but it might help more inexperienced players and mission designers to get the entry a lil faster.

Edited June 16, 2019 by RockinHarry

[Sgt.Squarehead]

11 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

And not to forget, we had/have this in CMX1 already. I´d used the random maps there as base for my own mission designs successfully. I.e deleting everything but the contours and building up surface terrain from scratch again. To me personally a random map generator is rather unimportant, but it might help more inexperienced players and mission designers to get the entry a lil faster.

I did exactly the same with randomly generated CM1 maps and I feel pretty much the same about the idea of having random maps in CM2.....I can think of an awful lot of other things I'd rather see first (persistent map damage, reinforcement by trigger, duration limited occupy objectives, AI painted artillery targets that can be timed to arrive mid scenario, amongst many, many others).

[BornGinger]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 12:32 PM, BornGinger said:

Improved line of sight so the squads see through the woods exactly what the player can see from the same spot would be great to have. And improved line of fire so the squads can shoot at what they see even if they are further into the woods.

 

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 2:02 PM, IanL said:

Yeah, I don't think this is really a problem. Forests are tricky and the game abstracts some of it so we are not likely to see changes and personally I don't think it is bad that there is some unpredictability in forests. I'll concede that being able to thread the needle 1000m through trees is a corner case that sucks

I think the situation with a bad line of sight and a bad line of fire from forests or woods is a problem of game balance when for example Tank A, which is among the trees, either can't see or shoot at Tank B, which is on a field, just because the game's coding is blocking the view of tank A whilst Tank B can see and shoot at Tank A.

 

Edited June 17, 2019 by BornGinger