'Fallen Eagle" movie: Test Trailers

[PanzerMike]

I read Donald Malarkey's book and enjoyed it. Worth a read IMHO.

[JonS]

11 hours ago, Crinius said:

Regarding Mr. Ambrose I found the Customer Review from Mr. Forczyk quite revealing and I have to agree with him. I think he pretty much nails it.

Forczyk's reviews are always worth paying attention to.

[Sublime]

Good. I just wish the guy had mentioned where Ambrose outright lied in Citizen Soldiers. Apparently a landing craft hat everyone was soon after killed on except for one American was the subject. Abrose claims a US Army Capt had to pull a 45 on the Brit coxswain to get him to get closer to the beach.

The survivor of the boat in question later proved he was the only survivor, that Ambrose either never interviewed him or interviewed him and then proceeded to ignore everything he said ( forget which ) and that noone had a gun pulled on them and the Brit landing craft drivers including this one were very brave that day.

Im sure there are other examples but such an outright lie from the guy that basically became "America's WW2 historian" from the late 90s till his death and the fact I think the majority of the populace takes anything he said as gospel is terrible.

I read Citizen Soldiers at age 14 in 1999 and even then i could tell there were distortions,inaccuracies, and that Ambrose either A. Exagerrated the hell out of the quality and experience of German units ( describing the mostly static Ost battalions defending the coast as Crack Wehrmacht units ) to making the Wehrmacht seem like a bunch of inept idiots which is insulting to the gargantuan effort in lives, treasure, and effort it took to stamp them out.

[Myles Keogh]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Good. I just wish the guy had mentioned where Ambrose outright lied in Citizen Soldiers. Apparently a landing craft hat everyone was soon after killed on except for one American was the subject. Abrose claims a US Army Capt had to pull a 45 on the Brit coxswain to get him to get closer to the beach.

The survivor of the boat in question later proved he was the only survivor, that Ambrose either never interviewed him or interviewed him and then proceeded to ignore everything he said ( forget which ) and that noone had a gun pulled on them and the Brit landing craft drivers including this one were very brave that day.

Im sure there are other examples but such an outright lie from the guy that basically became "America's WW2 historian" from the late 90s till his death and the fact I think the majority of the populace takes anything he said as gospel is terrible.

I read Citizen Soldiers at age 14 in 1999 and even then i could tell there were distortions,inaccuracies, and that Ambrose either A. Exagerrated the hell out of the quality and experience of German units ( describing the mostly static Ost battalions defending the coast as Crack Wehrmacht units ) to making the Wehrmacht seem like a bunch of inept idiots which is insulting to the gargantuan effort in lives, treasure, and effort it took to stamp them out.

Another scandal of "Citizen Soldiers" was that Dr. Ambrose "borrowed" passages from Joseph Balkoski's "Beyond the Beachhead: The 29th Infantry Division in Normandy" without proper attribution.  Ambrose was later "requested" to write a forward for a re-issue of Balkoski's book as a way to avoid an ugly lawsuit.

As typical with most plagiarists, if you're "borrowing" the work of other historians and writers for one book then it's more than likely you did so in other books.  And so it was with Dr. Ambrose- it was revealed that he had made it a habit of being "sloppy" as to citing his sources throughout his writing career.  His latter books are particularly shoddy due to his relying on his adult children to do almost all his research in order to churn-out books more quickly and keep the gravy train rolling.  The plagiarism scandals didn't really hurt Dr. Ambrose's reputation among the general public.  By the time it became news, he was already ensconced as "America's historian" with fame and fortune.  And then he died before it really started gaining traction.

As for "Band of Brothers," I agree with another poster that Ambrose's hero worship was in overdrive when he wrote that pulpish opus.  It's essentially "the cool kids' table" version of WW2.  It's about a clique within E Coy, 506th and anyone who wasn't part of that little group is pretty much denigrated or ignored.

I used to be a big fan of the miniseries (never cared for the book), but over the years the chest-puffing of its "heroes" at the expense others and their petty axe-grinding against guys they didn't like has rubbed me the wrong way.  It irks me that most of the guys Ambrose's sources chose to take shots at were dead and thus conveniently unable to respond to the slurs against their courage, competence and professionalism.  

Ambrose was supposedly a professional historian, but he seemingly took everything told to him by the select group of vets he chose to interview at face value.  He made no attempt to verify those old soldiers' stories as to accuracy or veracity.  Or even attempt to get other opinions as to persons or events outside of the clique he was interviewing.

Over a decade ago, WW2 vets of the 3rd Infantry Division (Audie Murphy's old outfit) felt compelled to commemorate a plaque at Berchtesgaden honoring the Rock of the Marne as the U.S division that arrived there first.  Why?  It's because "Band of Brothers" in both the book and the miniseries had lauded it far and wide that it was the 101st that had achieved that honor.  A quick check of a few primary sources would have put that falsehood to rest, but Ambrose didn't deal with primary sources.  So, here was this shrinking group of 3rd ID vets trying to protect their unit's honor from a plagiaristic hack who was more interested in concocting heroic tales in order to sell books to Baby Boomers nostalgic about their parents' dying generation than doing his job as a professional historian.

[Sublime]

Thank you Myles. Much more informative and detailed than mine and I appreciate it.

[Michael Emrys]

8 hours ago, Crinius said:

Regarding Mr. Ambrose I found the Customer Review from Mr. Forczyk quite revealing and I have to agree with him. I think he pretty much nails it.

https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/0743429907/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_hist_1?k=Band+Of+Brothers&showViewpoints=1&filterByStar=one_star&pageNumber=1

 

Yep. The one by Anthony Bates is pretty good too.

I realized that Ambrose was faking it when a few pages into Citizen Soldiers he declared that the Panther tank in Normandy was armed with an 88mm cannon. This was followed by additional glaring errors that anyone with even a smattering of WW II history should know better than. Ambrose must have written that book and others about the same time in his sleep or drunk...or both.

Michael

[Sublime]

Its utterly shocking. Real shame most of the vets were so old or sead by then.

Im sure Charles MacDonald woulda ripped him a new one eh Emrys?

[Michael Emrys]

8 hours ago, Sublime said:

Im sure Charles MacDonald woulda ripped him a new one eh Emrys?

Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin would have too.

Michael

[Sublime]

What a life that guy had. Stalingrad. Seriously wounded flown out.

Dnieper Bend 43 sieriously wounded had to become an adjutant because his war wounds. 

Then of course his tenure from 56 to 83 in the Bundeswehr..

 

 

You know the " what a life he had" brings to mind the story of a Legionarre at Dien Bien Phu.  I forget his name but it can be looked up if anyone wants to know. Waffen SS from 43 to 45. Joijns to FFL. Indochina in combat 46 to DBP. Survived the more or less death march to PoW camps. Thats where I lost his story. Someone on these boards ended up telling me the guy survived lived to a ripe old age and died in bed in Germany early 90s. What a life huh.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Sublime

[Erwin]

There was a supposedly biographical book by Guy Sajer that sounds similar: "Forgotten Soldier".

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/102305.The_Forgotten_Soldier

Read it when I was a teen.  Pretty good a la Sven Hassel genre.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Erwin

[Anthony P.]

For all the controversy, I do recall that Sajer was cleared after all. E.g. his best friend from the Großdeutschland was tracked down in the States, an former officer recalled there being a man named Sajer in his unit, etc.

No arguing that stuff like units, technical details, etc. are a very weak point, Sajer admitted as much.

[Sublime]

Well there were rumors for the longest Sajer was a fictional perspn but I heard the story he was actually vindicated as well. Never saw proof though.

Erwin - As far as the guy I mentioned IIRC his last name was Schmidt and he.s a well documented real life person. He.s mentioned at least 7 times in Windrows book on Vietnam ( The Last Valley ) amongst others. Would you like page #s?

Forgotten Soldier was good when I was a teen too. No there arent any BOOKS on the guy. Hes just mentioned in more than one DBP account but especially Windrows which I find the best researched though of course Street Without Joy or Jules Roys Battle of DBP.

The legionnare in question isnt the subject rather pops up in the narrative of the battle ( for courageous actions almost every time and Im NOT a fan of the Waffen SS ) several times in the form of a few sentences. I asked about him.im the GDF a year or two ago someone gave me an obit he died back home in Germany of old age.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Sublime

[Combatintman]

On ‎11‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 6:44 PM, Erwin said:

There was a supposedly biographical book by Guy Sajer that sounds similar: "Forgotten Soldier".

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/102305.The_Forgotten_Soldier

Read it when I was a teen.  Pretty good a la Sven Hassel genre.

No you're thinking of this book ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_Guard

Before the hoary old topic of 'Did ex-Wehrmacht fight at DBP' raises its head ... the answer pretty much is ... not in any significant numbers.  Most combatants at DBP were Vietnamese.

[Erwin]

Ah yes of course.  All those books blend together in my memory banks.

[Sublime]

Oh no the only ex Wehrmacht Ive found at DBP was Shmidt. Thats the only literary evidence AT ALL. There were certainly a lot of ex Wehrmacht in Indochina but theyd left or been killed by DBP. This influence is reflected in the great number of German marching songs in the legion according to Windrow in Last Valley.

And of course most of the people were Viet fighting there. After all there were Viets on both sides. The Viet Minh exclusively the French relying heavily on Vietnamese all the way through entire bttns of their Para units being Vietnamese.  Still lots of French around. Even a few Americans flew into Vietnam (Not DBP) to discuss Op Vulture. When the French were told that carpet bombing would cause collateral friendly casualties they didnt care. They kept asking for a nuke. We thought about it and nixxed it thank god.

Combatintman yes Sven Hassel. Thanks. I can provide citations from Windrows book later when Im back from work about Schmidt he was a real person.  Also about the Wehrmacht heavy legion around 47 48.

He.s mentioned Roys book too if you want me to dig you the cites for that too.

Fact is ex Wehrmacht WERE there. ONE of them.

[Combatintman]

@Sublime no need mate - I've got Bernard Fall's Street Without Joy and Hell in a Very Small Place, as well as Martin Windrow's The Last Valley and have read Roy's stuff.

[Sublime]

Ah amd thanks for the arrse link. Best forum Ive seen in awhile.

Let me be frank as well. I made comments that were well intentioned but were taken as otherwise amd im not resurrecting something Steve locked. But even on arrse theres plenty of threads from Brit military personnel who were Afghan vets that said the platoon house strategy was terrible that the Brit Army f'd up (higher up not along lines of the grunts or guys who paid for it) and even one Brit grunt said he remembered a field grade US Army officer saying the BA isnt what it used to be.

Now first of all so i seem fair. The US military has well documented cases of rampant drug use, atrocities, murders, and profiteering the more so the longer Vietnam went on. This led to things like the famous CBS report available on youtube called The Quiet Revolt (or mutiny) where a company basically just tells its new CO piss off ( well americanized with the f word) we.re not walking down that road.

It all depended on region and unit.

So out of curiousity whats your opinions on this? I honestly am still trying to catch up on my knowledge of the Brit part of our wars and Im.pretty ignorant on the whole issue but very much interested.

Another comment was from an Iraq vet who said they wiped the Iraqis down in basra the embarrassing thing was that when it was handed over the US troops had to reconquer the area.

Of course these are all posts and the the posters are *purported* BA enlisted personnel. Whether any of its true is uncertain what is certain is its all opinion.  

 

*IM NOT INSULTING BRITS OR THEIR MILITARY IM VERY CURIOUS ABOUT OPINION ON THEIR STRATEGY AND HOW THEY CARRIED IT OUT IN TELIC AND OVER IN HELMAND*

 

as far as DBP Combatint if you look up waffen ss or Schmidt (99% that was his name) he.s mentioned 4 or 5 times in windrows book his fate isnt mentioned. If you look in the general discussion forums I made a thread asking about his fate and someone linked and obit if youre interested. Amazing he ended up dying of old age back in germany

[Sublime]

Hm. Maybe my BA questions should be its own thread. Combatintman im interested in your views and opinions as a professional if you have time can you pm me ur thoughta and also opinions good or bad abt US forces

?