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ncc1701e

Why smoke block small arms firing?

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Trying CMBS demo for comparing the engine with CMSF, I must say "whaouu" !!! Great improvement of the engine and I like the new Target Briefly command, great idea. One thing that is puzzling me is that during one of the mission of the demo, computer did fire some smoke and I was knowing the infantry was just behind the smoke screen coming in my direction. I was willing to order my men to area fire on the smoke or just behind but the engine prevents me to do this.

I could understand that tank or missile needs laser designation to fire thus are blocked by smoke. But, why small arms firing is also blocked even the Target Light command? I see no real life reason why I could not waste my ammo across a smoke screen if I need to.

Thank you

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The player as God problem. You know there's enemies and you want to area fire; that would functionally make smoke in game useless, even if in reality troops might continue to fire through a smoke screen; you're going to be a lot more accurate than in reality because your omniscience allows you to track the enemy much better than in reality.

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I see. My intent was not to cheat. In fact, these men have seen the infantry just before a bradley fires some smoke to counter a laser designation. But the way you present it, I could understand it would introduce this "God" problem in the gameplay. For the record, they did not pass anyway…

Anyhow, great engine improvement, looking forward for this year's module.

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Personally   I'd like to be able to area target ground within smoke.

It's not like there's a sudden void in time and space -  it's just smoke and infantry/IFVs should be able to fire into,  or through. If they can't see the target (due to smoke) then it's still just random area fire.  

At the moment it's a bit gamey as a visual shield that prevents firing through it unless you have pre-targeted.

Perhaps there could be a smoke modifier,  reducing accuracy even further (eg more rounds go high). 

 

Edited by kinophile

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21 hours ago, kinophile said:

Perhaps there could be a smoke modifier,  reducing accuracy even further (eg more rounds go high).

 

In fact that sounds like a reasonable way to alleviate the "player as god" problem. Have units that area fire target several action spots, not just the one specified, unless they have successfully spotted an enemy unit in the vicinity of the target order.

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I had commented on just this thing in another post.

It(the inability to area fire into smoke) goes against basic infantry training(IRL).

Infantry platoon leaders are all taught the necessity of establishing an FPL (Final Protective Line) with deployed MGs to cover the unit's front in cases of assault. The guns are sighted to have intersecting fire (or at least a wall of fire if only 1 MG) across the unit's front. All the gunner has to do is push the gun to his left or right traverse(depending) and hold the trigger(FPF...Final Protective Fire). Certainly applies to cases of zero/limited visibility caused by a smoke screen. The idea is to have a "wall of lead" that your enemy HAS to cross before getting close enough to overrun you!

Can't speak for Bradley or Stryker crews, but have a feeling they have similar procedures.

Now...if the the argument is that "this tactic only applies to established defensive positions"...I'd argue that basic human nature means your soldiers are still going to fire random bursts into the smoke simply out of fear. It wouldn't be any different than the scenes on the news and Youtube of soldiers firing their weapons blindly over the top of walls and around corners. (need emoji for facepalm here!)

Yes...there should be a definite accuracy penalty for area fire into smoke. The "having the area fire target several spots" to simulate the average soldier's nervousness at firing at unseen enemies seems like a good idea.

Having smoke work as a "virtual force-field" like it is in the game, is worse than the "player as god" issue. There are so many times that "player as god" could be pointed out. However...even if this game was simply being used by the military as a training tool...the LAST thing they would want is combat leaders that think smoke offers the sort of protection like it does here!

It's bad enough that the younger soldiers think they can "run and gun" around the battlefield like those Call of Duty games! ;)

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Good points about smoke - and they have been discussed before for sure.  Just FYI you can area fire near the smoke and some of the bullets will keep going and have an effect through the smoke. I realize that is not as good as the real thing just letting you know there is a partial workaround.

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16 hours ago, cbennett88 said:

@LUCASWILLEN05 You are correct ...AN/PAS-13 LWTS does.

All the more reason to change the effect of smoke in the game.

I am yet to be convinced of that, Incendiary smoke is designed to block thermal Imaging. I would however like NATO tanks and artillery to have the option of using incendiary smoke.I have nothing against tank crews deciding for themselves to use it.However, when I use artillery I would like the option to choose what kind of smoke  think is appropriate. I would not hwever want o change the actual effects of smoke although some testing to determine the effecs of thermal imging through smok creens would be a good idea

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On May 13, 2016 at 9:21 AM, ncc1701e said:

 One thing that is puzzling me is that during one of the mission of the demo, computer did fire some smoke and I was knowing the infantry was just behind the smoke screen coming in my direction. I was willing to order my men to area fire on the smoke or just behind but the engine prevents me to do this.

 I see no real life reason why I could not waste my ammo across a smoke screen if I need to.

Thank you

Seem reasonable to me.  Good use of ammo.   If the enemy is stupid enough to pop some smoke close to his own position then your whole platoon (or Company) should be able to target the smoke and saturate the position with massed area fire.  The smoke makes a great target indicator.   Or if the enemy is a little smarter we should be able to mark his position with smoke and fire into it.  By aiming through the smoke we can cause surpression if not  casualties.  This is a great standard drill as smoke on the battlefield is usually very dangerous for those close it it.  Smoke is just two thin to stop bullets, or any other ordinance.

 Smoke should = a great target.  Game mechanics that limit fire into and through smoke are just poor.  It's  just unrealistic, like game mechanics that don't allow area fire at all.

Smoke should never be allowed as a magic protective cloak.  Smoke is the red flag that attracts the bull.  The BULLet.

 

 

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On 8/2/2016 at 0:06 AM, macjimm said:

Seem reasonable to me.  Good use of ammo.   If the enemy is stupid enough to pop some smoke close to his own position then your whole platoon (or Company) should be able to target the smoke and saturate the position with massed area fire.  The smoke makes a great target indicator.   Or if the enemy is a little smarter we should be able to mark his position with smoke and fire into it.  By aiming through the smoke we can cause surpression if not  casualties.  This is a great standard drill as smoke on the battlefield is usually very dangerous for those close it it.  Smoke is just two thin to stop bullets, or any other ordinance.

 Smoke should = a great target.  Game mechanics that limit fire into and through smoke are just poor.  It's  just unrealistic, like game mechanics that don't allow area fire at all.

Smoke should never be allowed as a magic protective cloak.  Smoke is the red flag that attracts the bull.  The BULLet.

 

 

If this was the case I imagine we'd have stopped issuing smoke grenades some decades ago.  It's not "magic" but it does transform aimed fire at point targets into area fire, which greatly reduces the ability of an enemy to engage targets.  

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1 hour ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

If this was the case I imagine we'd have stopped issuing smoke grenades some decades ago.  It's not "magic" but it does transform aimed fire at point targets into area fire, which greatly reduces the ability of an enemy to engage targets.  

better yet, just toss smoke grenades so the enemy burns through ammo  :D

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On 8/4/2016 at 6:22 PM, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

If this was the case I imagine we'd have stopped issuing smoke grenades some decades ago.  It's not "magic" but it does transform aimed fire at point targets into area fire, which greatly reduces the ability of an enemy to engage targets.  

Wow.  I am truly delusional or I failed to communicate effectively.   

First off.  Panzersaurkrautwerfer, I've thoroughly enjoyed reading many of your posts and I find your content very thoughtful and well informed. From what I have gleaned from your words I would be far out my depth to debate military tactics with you.  So don't take this as a confrontation from an arrogant computer gamer but rather as an enthusiastic interested old guy seeking clarification.

I understand your comment "... smoke does transform aimed fire at point targets into area fire"  and aimed fire in certain circumstances may be more effective than area fire.  But I found that having a buddy team or fireteam delivering aimed fire is often less devastating than a platoon pouring lead into an area. This is especially true when the enemy has big weapons and is at range.  But perchance I may be confusing suppression with casualties.

What I was trying to say was:  Using smoke as a screen to aid breaking contact is not always effective.

Smoke can be misused. I've seen smoke used as if it were a force shield.   Smoke doesn't stop bullets and can give away your position, or alert the enemy that you are about to move.  It can be used effectively, although having 4 people throw smoke at the same time is often excessive.  Smoke on your own position can provide your enemy a nice aiming marker and prevent you from firing. Don't throw smoke onto your own position. The only time smoke to your front is applicable is if you're withdrawing, & then try to get it as far away from where you actually are as possible.  If you can break contact without smoke you may often draw less fire from the enemy because as individual soldiers moving in bounds your team may be not be visible to all of the enemy, when smoke often will be.

Often using smoke near friendly positions when under effective enemy fire can be a very bad idea. Sometimes not all of the enemy is aware of your position.   The enemy can be shooting at you & not know exactly where you are - I've noticed this to be common. You throw a smoke grenade and then every single enemy knows where you are and can quickly be shooting at you. Rather than "Where's the enemy?" "He's by that tree." "Which tree?" "The one with the leaves." etc. you'll just have, "Enemy on white smoke!" and then suddenly the whole enemy force knows where you are and can be focused on your area and looking to see you exiting it. 

Basically smoke is okay (for signals) near friendly positions when the enemy can't see it. Using smoke in a firefight should be on top of or very close to the enemy to blind and confuse them and allow friendlies to use area suppressible fire right into the smoke. Put down suppressing fire on the enemy while trying to put smoke on their position is a good tactic.  Obscuring smoke can be smoke delivered onto the enemy to blind him.

Smoke is often best deployed on the enemy position via 203 or AFVs, if possible, or if not thrown so that the wind will carry it so that it screens only where you are moving and doesn't blind your own guys.  I especially like to use smoke as "Good Smoke" to blind enemy and light up the area with mounted weapons on our friendly AFVs. If the enemy also has Vics then target them at the same time as the smoke is deployed. A smoke in the right spot forces the enemy vehicle to move, or be destroyed, while blinding it and creating an opportunity for friendly movement.

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But my key point was that the game should allow for area fire into smoke.

 

Edited by macjimm

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