AI / Unit grouping

[Kinophile]

I'm slowly developing an understanding of how this AI works.

Anyway, question re grouping:

What does the U1, U2, U3 etc grouping mean? What does it do, or enable?

 

[Pete Wenman]

This is a unit objective and allows VPs to be awarded against that grouping. 

I.e U1 might be enemy infantry, and worth 500 points. U2 might be enemy armour etc.

Off the top of my head options for this type of target are

Spot

Destroy

Destroy All

p

[Kinophile]

Sorry, so its a tag identifying that unit as U1 to the enemy, worth ###? 

ie it is an identifier of those troops for the enemy AI?

Edited May 5, 2016 by kinophile

[Pete Wenman]

It is a means by which a scenario designer allocates VP for enemy units.

No unit objectives in a scenario means that noboby will gain any points for enemy units destroyed. As such the U groups are an aid to the designer not the player.

 

[Kinophile]

Ah k, thanks very much!

[Euri]

Further, if you assign U-codes to certain units and same side has an exit objective on the map, any U-units not exited at the end will count as casualties

[Kinophile]

Incidentally, for BFC,  it would be really,  really really nice to be able to rename the Groups and Plans. Otherwise I'm using an exterior excel sheet....

Firsr world, white person problems,  I know.... 

1st Q)  Pete, do you generally split the Inf from IFVs,  as discrete groups? Eg my 1st platoon IFVs are A2,  the Inf they carry are A11. 

Does this affect the AI in any negative way? 

2nd Q) I've some widely  spaces recon squads.  I want them to advance to a phase line.  They do move,  but they all aim at the point of the line closest to the platoon HQ. 

Ie they concentrate on the leader, rather than advance straight ahead to their nearest part of the phase line. 

Is it possible to set the behaviour I want,  or do I need to separate into disparate groups? 

[Kinophile]

7 minutes ago, Euri said:

Further, if you assign U-codes to certain units and same side has an exit objective on the map, any U-units not exited at the end will count as casualties

Ahhhhhhhhhh very good to know. I have a massed retreat in the works, this will be vital. 

[Kinophile]

Re AI artillery -  the target plans... Are they ONLY for initial strikes,  or do they identify,  to the AI,  legitimate targets for the duration of the game?

I assume they are fired at in sequence?  If so,  then what us the timing between? Is there a way to affect it? 

And,  if no target plans provided,  does that prevent the AI using/firing their Arty?  

Edited May 6, 2016 by kinophile

[A Canadian Cat]

I'm not @Pete Wenman and certainly do not have his experience but I'll give you my take...

8 minutes ago, kinophile said:

Incidentally, for BFC,  it would be really,  really really nice to be able to rename the Groups and Plans. Otherwise I'm using an exterior excel sheet....

I do in fact have a sheet of paper next to me when doing scenario design work.  I use the table that @JonS included in his scenario design pdf that ships with games now. Originally from here:

Honestly I do not see them doing the work to allow custom naming of groups.  I see what you mean, but to support that they have to add a bunch of UI elements and it effects the layout of other UI elements.  I strongly suspect that they would prioritize other enhancements above this - and frankly I would want them to.

 

8 minutes ago, kinophile said:

1st Q)  Pete, do you generally split the Inf from IFVs,  as discrete groups? Eg my 1st platoon IFVs are A2,  the Inf they carry are A11. 

Does this affect the AI in any negative way? 

I do try to put them in separate groups.  That way once the AI controlled IFVs drop the infantry off, their plan can be more flexible than allow them to move some distance behind the infantry.  You should note that none of my scenarios, so far, have been very big so I am not sure how practical this would be for a larger formation.

No neither choice will affect the AI negatively as far as I can see.

 

8 minutes ago, kinophile said:

2nd Q) I've some widely  spaces recon squads.  I want them to advance to a phase line.  They do move,  but they all aim at the point of the line closest to the platoon HQ. 

Ie they concentrate on the leader, rather than advance straight ahead to their nearest part of the phase line. 

Is it possible to set the behaviour I want,  or do I need to separate into disparate groups? 

No and therefore yes, you would have to have separate groups to force the separation you are looking for.

[Kinophile]

OK,  much as I suspected for all. 

Thanks Ian! 

[Pete Wenman]

 

1st Q)  Pete, do you generally split the Inf from IFVs,  as discrete groups? Eg my 1st platoon IFVs are A2,  the Inf they carry are A11. 

Yes I generally use at least two groups. so that infantry can be given a dismount order and then separate orders from the AFVs (with this normally being that the infantry advance ahead of the vehicles to screen them from AT fire)

Does this affect the AI in any negative way? 

No but you can run out of AI groups quickly.

2nd Q) I've some widely  spaces recon squads.  I want them to advance to a phase line.  They do move,  but they all aim at the point of the line closest to the platoon HQ. 

Ie they concentrate on the leader, rather than advance straight ahead to their nearest part of the phase line. 

Is it possible to set the behaviour I want,  or do I need to separate into disparate groups? 

Moving several squads that are part of the same group can see some odd movement patterns with units crossing over each others paths. I've found the best way to deal with this is to alternate between and wide spread and a tight grouping (preferable with this order in cover)

Otherwise as you have already worked out separate groups is best.

P

[Pete Wenman]

Re AI artillery -  the target plans... Are they ONLY for initial strikes,  or do they identify,  to the AI,  legitimate targets for the duration of the game?

Initial strikes only for AI target plans with all fire starting at game start, although it may take a turn or two before the full weight of fire is falling

I assume they are fired at in sequence?  If so,  then what us the timing between? Is there a way to affect it? 

No all targets are fired upon at the same time and this cannot be altered. The only difference is the ROF of the indirect fire units, but this can be used to good effect. Be aware that the AI will not fire at all the targets set if it thinks it doesn't have enough indirect fire units to cover them. 

And,  if no target plans provided,  does that prevent the AI using/firing their Arty?  

No - AI arty will be fired on spec, but it needs a spotting unit and a target that is stationary for a while. I generally give the AI a FOO with good LOS and hope they can see something which sits in the same spot long enough to be caught in a quick stonk. 

You'll notice that AI indirect fire called in on the fly is generally of the short sharp type and so rarely lasts for more than a turn or two.

A good way to get the most out of the initial strike and then subsequent on the fly fire is to set up at game start units for the initial strikes and then have further indirect fire units appears as reinforcements, as these will not be called upon for the initial fire and so have full ammo state for the on the fly missions. 81m Mtrs work well for this as their speed of response is quick enough that there will often catch units in location.

If you played A December Morning check out the German FOO location in the editor and the AI arty plan for the US 

HTH

P

Edited May 6, 2016 by Pete Wenman

[Kinophile]

Excellent advice thank you. 

So, if I have 10 targets and 4 batteries, I could give Batt 1 = targets T1 - T3, which it will fire at in sequence off the top, with the only delay being in reload,  re/target,  until empty (?) . 

Then Batts 2, 3, 4 can be staggered  reinforcement and will automatically fire at targets T4 - T10 as they come on line,  and as each target is dealt with. 

ie if Batt 2 destroys targets T4, T5 from battle start. It starts firing at target T6. Then Batt 3 comes online and also starts firing at T6. 

Batt 2 runs dry. Batt 3 finishes off T6,  works through that and T7,  T8 until empty. 

Tine gap of 10 mins and Batt 4 opens up on T8, then T9 &  T10. 

Sound reasonable? 

Sorry to clarify, batteries will auto fire at numbered AI targets,  but need a FO for non-numbered,  free fire targeting? 

Also,  how long does the Suppress fire last? Until empty? I'm assuming it's simply a slower ROF.

 

[Pete Wenman]

No - sorry but the system is far more basic.

You cannot give specific units targets, and the allocation of direct fire to targets seems to be effected by several variables.

• The size of the target area - too big and the AI will just fire on one part of it - randomly selected
• The number of indirect fire units - the more units the more targets the AI will select to fire upon.

I would suspect that in order to have 10 separate targets fired upon you would need to keep each target area quite small and have 10 separate indirect fire units all available at game start.

As for ammo usage I don't think there is any way to tell as there is no way to access the AI ammo levels. It does look though in most cases they will fire all their ammo with the ROF dependent on the setting  with destroy being the heaviest weight of fire and suppression lasting the longest, but that is just my impression.

The reinforcement trick does not have any impact on AI plan targets. They are only fired upon by units available at game start.

A FOO is not needed for a free fire target, but the quicker response time of a FOO vs an HQ unit means it is more likely to be effective as the longer the delay the more likely the human player is to have moved the target unit. If you test in scenario author mode you can see an AI free fire mission being called in with the target, and spotter shown and also the firing unit if on map (just the same as when you call fire support) so that can help with understanding the process.

Trial and error is the best way to work out what happens so you can get what you are after. As with most things CM there is a lot more Art than Science to these things (the famous fuzzy logic)

P

 

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by Pete Wenman

[Kinophile]

Superb information,  thank you! 

[Kinophile]

I'm. Trying to figure out this fochochta AI orders system. 

 I'm trying to get a platoon to go to a building complex,  dismount and occupy the various floors. 

So orders sequence is:

SETUP -  colour in the appropriate setup area -  NOT intended objectives. Leave infantry mounted. 

ORDER 2 - Color in movement objective  Keep infantry mounted. Set to quick,  Active. 

ORDER 3 - Color in building objective. Set infantry to DISMOUNTED, advance,  active. 

ORDER 4 -  quick,  Ambush 100m.

 

This seems to work sometimes.  Sometimes not. This AI orders system us very non unintuitive.... 

 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Works sometimes but sometimes not - that is suspicious.  Is it possible that you have a blank AI plan set as active?  There are five AI plans and when you are testing one you want it to be set to be used Frequently and tall the others to be "Not used".  I'm writing this from memory so those choices might not be exactly worded correctly.  If one of the other AI plans is set to be used then that would explain what you are seeing.

[Kinophile]

Interesting, Ill check, thank you.

[A Canadian Cat]

I've had it happen to me.  Hopefully it will be that simple.

[Pete Wenman]

18 hours ago, kinophile said:

This seems to work sometimes.  Sometimes not. This AI orders system us very non unintuitive.... 

I'll drop you a pm with my email address - send me the btt file and I'll have a look at it.

 

P

[ASL Veteran]

19 hours ago, kinophile said:

I'm. Trying to figure out this fochochta AI orders system. 

 I'm trying to get a platoon to go to a building complex,  dismount and occupy the various floors. 

So orders sequence is:

SETUP -  colour in the appropriate setup area -  NOT intended objectives. Leave infantry mounted. 

ORDER 2 - Color in movement objective  Keep infantry mounted. Set to quick,  Active. 

ORDER 3 - Color in building objective. Set infantry to DISMOUNTED, advance,  active. 

ORDER 4 -  quick,  Ambush 100m.

 

This seems to work sometimes.  Sometimes not. This AI orders system us very non unintuitive.... 

 

 

I'm going to guess that Pete has already addressed this with you via e-mail, but if you have mounted troops and you want them to go into a building then you would have the following:

Vehicle AI Group

SETUP -  colour in the appropriate setup area -  NOT intended objectives. Leave infantry mounted. 

ORDER 2 - Color in movement objective  Passengers Dismount.  Active.

ORDER 3 - If you want the vehicles to move to a different location after the passengers dismount you will then give the vehicles a pause here and once all infantry have disembarked the vehicles can proceed to location three sans passengers. 

Infantry AI Group (No Set Up because they are Mounted and are inside the vehicles)

ORDER 2 (takes effect when the vehicles arrive at their order 2) - Color in building objective.  advance,  active. (No need to set infantry to dismounted - you only have to set the vehicles to passengers dismount) 

ORDER 3 -  quick,  Ambush 100m.

 

Edited May 10, 2016 by ASL Veteran

[ASL Veteran]

20 hours ago, kinophile said:

I'm. Trying to figure out this fochochta AI orders system. 

 I'm trying to get a platoon to go to a building complex,  dismount and occupy the various floors. 

So orders sequence is:

SETUP -  colour in the appropriate setup area -  NOT intended objectives. Leave infantry mounted. 

ORDER 2 - Color in movement objective  Keep infantry mounted. Set to quick,  Active. 

ORDER 3 - Color in building objective. Set infantry to DISMOUNTED, advance,  active. 

ORDER 4 -  quick,  Ambush 100m.

 

This seems to work sometimes.  Sometimes not. This AI orders system us very non unintuitive.... 

 

 

If you wanted to keep both passengers and vehicles in the same AI group, then what you need to do is pause the vehicles at the dismount point until all the infantry have dismounted.  If the vehicles begin moving to the next order then the passengers that haven't dismounted yet will remain mounted until the next order location has been reached.  If the next order location is in a building then the vehicles won't move and the passengers will remain loaded for the duration.  The dismount has to happen the order before you enter the building not the order in the building, so with one AI group it would look like this

SETUP -  colour in the appropriate setup area -  NOT intended objectives. Leave infantry mounted. 

ORDER 2 - Color in movement objective Set to Passengers DISMOUNT.  Set to quick,  Active.  Add delay for however long it takes for all passengers to dismount. 

ORDER 3 - Color in building objective. , advance,  active.  Vehicles will remain at the last order location since they can't enter the building but the infantry should advance to this objective as long as you set the delay long enough for everyone to complete their dismount.  If anyone begins moving to the next location without dismounting that unit will remain mounted because it has moved on to the next order.

ORDER 4 -  quick,  Ambush 100m.

[Euri]

In respect of order 2: If you set Passengers Dismount, they will do so at the beginning of the order not at the end. In other words will go on foot and the vehicles will come along

From the manual: 

"This option tells infantry carrying vehicles to Dismount its passengers or keep them Mounted. Keep in mind that this option is activated BEFORE the designated Map zone is reached! If you want to dismount after reaching a map zone, you will need to create one Order for getting there mounted, second order (with or without a Map Zone) to dismount on location."

 

[Kinophile]

Thank you gentlemen!