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Battles for Chaumont author?

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Hi there,

if I'm not mistaking, briefings doesn't mention author's name in either scenarios. Anydoby know who is? (Want to add name in credits while translating).

Thanks for any help you can provide.

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thank you. I really enjoyed working on the scenarios. The game map is based on an actual 1943 U.S. Army map. Fortunately, the area has changed very little since then so Google Earth was a big help. Soldiers who fought there said Chaumont was at the bottom of a bowl and you really see it on the map.

The U.S. OOB is very accurate down to the number and in many cases, the type of tanks. Historical leaders on both sides are marked with an asterisk. The German OOB is less accurate since there is less info, the broad strokes are correct, but there was more guesstimates involved. 

(spoilers) there is a controversial aspect to the German OOB in "Round 2". It is not mentioned in most histories of the battle, but I found enough indirect references to warrant "their" inclusion. I will let you guys figure it out. :)

Edited by Sgt Joch

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i don't have the full game but i'm playing the battle in the demo. whenever i stumble upon a battle with historical setting i try to research anything i can before playing it. i was able to track the american advance into the city and the ambush they drove in. however, the battle in demo seems like another counterattack as reading reports from US side, it seems germans waited for them on the ridge and the hill on the right of Grandrue. which reminds me, the village isn't Grandue as it is mentined in the game but Grandrue.

so, Sgt. Joch, would you kindly share some of the resources for the battle, thanks a ton!

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34 minutes ago, mbarbaric said:

(...)the village isn't Grandue as it is mentined in the game but Grandrue.(...)

"Grandru" actually.

b187ddf184844a6f4c914222777e5d2b.png

 

"Ru" or "ry" mean stream in French, while "Grandrue" would mean "main street". Many hamlet are named from a local terrain feature.

Edited by CMFDR

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ah you are right of course, my meek french let me down there. and i was wondering why would they need big road for such a small place!? I am a bit of dyslexic indeed. However BF, please, not Grandue or Grandrue but Grandru! :D

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You are correct, it should be "Grandrue" according to my map. That is an easy fix with the scenario editor.

Regarding where the German counterattack came from, there is contradictory info . U. S. troops reported the attack came from the northwest, north and northeast. Other accounts say German troops and Stugs came from the woods in the east. The most likely spot seemed to be the area to the northeast behind the ridge. 

 

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i am trying to figure out which counterattack is represented in the game as, based on what i was able to scrunge from internet, the city of C. passed from hand to hand few times till 27th if i recall well (might be completely off there).

what it seems to me as plausible is following:

- germans knew US troops are going that road to relieve bastogne as they have attacked them on the way to chaumont

- if you take a look at the map on google or in game (as it is done really well) you can clearly see it is perfect spot to trap the enemy inside the city. 

-germans knew what is coming to them and they chose perfect spot letting the US attack and occupy the city (going downhill into valley where city of Chaumont is). at that moment they came behind the forrest on the hill in north west of Grandru (the optional deployment zone in the game) and off the ridge in north east of Grandru. therefore they had perfect ambush positions on high ground and just ponded US tanks and troops untill tehy withdrew. 

now, i don't really think the game depicts this first encounter as i believe it should be made for US vs AI thus that, i think had to be some counter attack later on, especially as briefing gave me an impression this is hastly assembled nazi force to drive out the US. it might be combination of two battles... but i'd really like this mistery to be solved. also, when it comes to historical missions i would love if makers would past resources they used to recreate the mission. i find the biggest appeal of the CM to be able to learn and find out things :D

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the two scenarios represent the battles on dec. 23rd, the U.S. attack at 1:30 pm and the German counterattack around 4 p.m. Cole has a short summary:

"At Chaumont the ground assault came about 1330 on the heels of a particularly telling strike by friendly fighter-bombers. German artillery had begun to come alive an hour or so earlier, but with the Jabos in the sky the enemy gunners were quiet. Two rifle platoons mounted on tanks made a dash into the village, where more of the armored infantry soon arrived on foot. Even so, the lunge to envelop Chaumont on the west failed of its intent for the fields were thawing in the afternoon sun and the Shermans were left churning in the mud. A company of the 14th Regiment, 5th Parachute Division, tried to fight it out in the houses, but after a couple of hours nearly all the enemy had been rounded up. Then the scene changed with some abruptness.

During the night a liaison officer carrying the CCB attack orders had taken the wrong turning and driven into the German lines. Perhaps the enemy had seized the orders before they could be destroyed. Perhaps the cavalry foray in the early morning had given advance warning. In any case General Kokott,

commanding the 26th Volks Grenadier Division responsible for the Chaumont-Martelange sector, had taken steps to reply to the attack on Chaumont. This village lies at the bottom of a bowl whose sides are formed by hills and connecting ridges. The rim to the northeast is densely wooded but is tapped by a trail leading on to the north. Along this trail, screened by the woods, the Germans brought up the 11th Assault Gun Brigade, numbering ten to fifteen remodeled Mark III carriages. bearing 75-mm. guns and with riflemen clinging to their decks and sides. Rolling down the slope behind an artillery smoke screen, the German assault guns knocked out those American tanks they could sight and discharged their gray-clad passengers into the village.

The American riflemen (Lt. Col. Harold Cohen's 10th Armored Infantry Battalion) battled beside the crippled and mired tanks in what Maj. Albin Irzyk, the veteran commander of the 9th Tank Battalion, called the bitterest fighting his battalion ever had encountered. The forward artillery observer was dead and there was no quick means of bringing fire on the enemy assault guns, which simply stood off and blasted a road for the German infantry. Company A, 10th Armored Infantry Battalion, which had led the original assault against Chaumont, lost some sixty-five men. The battle soon ended.12 In small groups the Americans fell back through the dusk to their original positions, leaving eleven Shermans as victims of the assault guns and the mud. The only officer of Company A left alive, 1st Lt. Charles R. Gniot, stayed behind to cover the withdrawal until he too was killed. Gniot was awarded the DSC, posthumously."

Cole, "Ardennes", pp 527-529

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_21.htm#p523

Major Al Irzyk, the Tank Battalion commander also posted his story:

http://www.battleofthebulgememories.be/stories26/32-battle-of-the-bulge-us-army/284-battle-for-chaumont-belgium-december-23-1944.html

Bruce Quarrie, "The Ardennes Offensive", southern sector, also provided some useful info especially on the OOB:

http://www.bookdepository.com/Ardennes-Offensive-Southern-Sector-Bruce-Quarrie/9781855329140

Various other sources also filled in certain gaps.

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thanks a ton Sgt Joch! Out of all your sources I was able to find only Al Izryk's story where he describes the first entrance into the town of Chaumont that was repelled by swift response. He doesn't mention nothing else that day so I was under impression other battles happened in latter days. 

now i am going to run through other sources you have posted as i am puzzled why did nazis need to counter attack at 16.00 if Izryk withdrew after 13.00 attack. Can't wait to read about that misterious attack of US troops in between :D

Do you think it would be worthy to paste some of these sources into mission description directly?

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Not that it changes anything to the quality of Sgt Joch's work, and while US maps of the era spelled it "Grandrue", the hamlet actually is "Grandru". A trivial detail really, and author's call anyway.

fb077e28f81ad175a6e0dbf2282e3241.png1b171d1537d6eac6a96298f3550b4cdb.jpg

https://www.battlefieldhistorian.com/gsgs_4041_1_25000_belgium.asp

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/belgium_50k/

 

5a4be209d3b7dd0b3ee5a2daae889cba.png

http://www.vaux-sur-sure.be/commune/vie-locale/villages-de-la-commune

http://www.vaux-sur-sure-tourisme.be/nos-villages/grandru/

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well, i think we are all about acuracy, and if you go to streetview on google maps you can se the sign on the road from Chamont that says "Grandru". don't know why americans, and I, figured it was Grandrue, maybe it is pronounced same way so it just got renamed with more familiar french word. as far as it goes for Sgt Joch's work, i guess it is probably a typo that doesn't take away anything from the beautiful work done.

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20 hours ago, mbarbaric said:

thanks a ton Sgt Joch! Out of all your sources I was able to find only Al Izryk's story where he describes the first entrance into the town of Chaumont that was repelled by swift response. He doesn't mention nothing else that day so I was under impression other battles happened in latter days.

now i am going to run through other sources you have posted as i am puzzled why did nazis need to counter attack at 16.00 if Izryk withdrew after 13.00 attack. Can't wait to read about that misterious attack of US troops in between :D

Do you think it would be worthy to paste some of these sources into mission description directly?

Irzyk's account is a bit confusing since he starts on dec. 22nd when CCB started its drive north.

There were three actions on the map on dec. 23rd.

1. before dawn, U.S. scout forces ran into German outposts, there was a brisk skirmish and they withdrew. It is not clear how far they reached, it seems either the last southern ridge before the village or the outskirts of the village itself;

2. At this point, CCB commander decided they needed to do a full scale conventional assault on the village, including preliminary air strikes and artillery barrage. That took most of the day since the attack itself only started rolling at 1:30 p.m.. This is the action shown in "Round One".

3. CCB captured Chaumont and were in the village at 4 p.m. Around that time, the German counterattack started, that is "Round Two".

One interesting point about "Round Two" is why was Allied TacAir completely absent? Dec. 23rd was a clear day and Allied planes had been in action all day. As you can see on that day in the ardennes, the sun sets around 4:30 p.m. and Allied aircraft were already racing back to land before dark, so CCB was on its own.

Edited by Sgt Joch

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indeed, Al (I can't help but read his name as A.I. instead of AL) Irzyk is as confusing as his name AND surname. he does start report on 22nd and progresses through the night and then the 23rd. Really confusing part is him saying he was surprised how well and quick his attack went, apart C company getting bogged on that high ground west of Chaumont. They basically bombed the hell out  of the city and then advanced the barrage (a great tip I have to try in the game) to hills east and west of Grandru while progressing down the main road (B company and himself) and on the ridge east of Chaumont (this is also kind of unclear as i don't think they really went up the ridge but went basically through the woods closer to the city than ridge itself as from there they wouldn't be able to support the troops in Chaumont).

as he says it was all quick and tidy and then suddenly came the response from germans out of nowhere, and considering the terrain being ideal for an ambush, i got an impression germans just let them come closer and then kicked the hell out of them from higher ground. didn't think their advance of few hundred meters into Chaumont would need two and half hours so I just thought the germans were waiting for them and US later reoccupyed positions in another battle and then only came "round 2".

 

thanks for clearing all up i have to buy this game as soon as i get some money and try that round 1 as well. you sir did a great job of this map and mission and whole story of it. i only wish you posted the sources with the mission and it woud be standard practice :D

 

Edited by mbarbaric

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While Chaumont First Round Chaumont translation is on the way and Second Round in French have been posted, I was going through an interesting book published by one of the Bastogne's museum (Piconrue), in which 45 of 152 aerial recon photos recovered in August 1945 from a crashlanded F-5 (P-38) near Chenogne are contextualized. Among them all is starred Chaumont and its little sister :

pru_chau0.png

Chaumont area, 25th of December 1944 around 1 PM

pru_chau1.png

Zoom on Chaumont

pru_chau2.png

Zoom on Grandru

 

Book is "La bataille vue du ciel. Martelange-Bastogne-Houffalize. Noël 1944."

Noel_44_web-500x500.jpg

http://www.piconrue.be/fr/ses-publications/editions/fiche/n_43/2014-martelange-bastogne-houffalize-noel-1944-la-bataille-vue-du-ciel

 

Just another opportunity to say Good Job Sgt Joch! ;)

 

Edited by CMFDR

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+1   All the folks who worked on the CMFN maps and scenarios did a great job.  The maps and missions seem better made, more interesting and unique than previous titles.

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good scenario, did you consider making it a two mission campaign? A bit short for a campaign but seeing as the units carry over to second round I wondered if its possible?

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4 hours ago, Jace11 said:

good scenario, did you consider making it a two mission campaign? A bit short for a campaign but seeing as the units carry over to second round I wondered if its possible?

It is indeed possible but the issue is fighting over the same ground - damage to buildings inflicted in Mission 1 can't be replicated which kind of kills immersion.

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A shout out to the maker of Chaumont Part 2 which was a great H2H battle. The map offers a lot of interesting situations and decisions for both sides. Good job and highly recommended!

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Sgt Joch,

  Amazing scenarios.  So well done.  Did anyone guess your initial question about the German OOB in Part 2?  I'm going to suggest it was the Jagdpanzers.  They performed very nicely from ridgeline positions, although I did lose one with a gun hit that destroyed it's main weapon.

  I posted some pictures of that battle in the screenshots thread.  The map was stunning.  Rocketman is correct.  The battle is great, even versus AI.  Highly recommended.

2le2kqu.jpg

From Part 1.

 

e0kcpw.jpg

Death takes its measure at the twilight's last gleaming...

From Part 2.

Heinrich505

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