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Larsen

Is there any way to clear the mines?

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Does CM has any mechanism where individual squads (pioneers most probably) can create safe paths through the minefields? I left a team of engineers sitting on a known minefield and they did nothing. 

I feel that if a minefield is found and identified by an attacker there should be no way that he could bring any infantry through without first creating a safe passage. Infantry just should not be allowed to walk through a minefield.  Second, if a minefield is identified there should be a way to create a safe path through it. Think of it in this terms. An action spot in CM is 8 by 8 meters (I hope I am right on this). A team of engineers is 4-5 people. They should be able to create a safe path through the minefield in 2-3 minutes (if not under fire of course).

Am I missing something?

 

 

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Yep, they will mark the mines, which I see as taping a path. You will see the color of the mine sign change from red to yellow? showing it is safer to move through them, but you should still use caution and move slowly through the area. As Raptor mentioned, the mines aren't cleared necessarily, just marked.

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Thank you, guys. Somehow I missed that command. 

I still feel that infantry should be prohibited from moving through the minefield that is not at least marked by engineers (unless panicked).

 

Edited by Larsen

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On 22. April 2016 at 6:17 PM, Larsen said:

Does CM has any mechanism where individual squads (pioneers most probably) can create safe paths through the minefields? I left a team of engineers sitting on a known minefield and they did nothing. 

I feel that if a minefield is found and identified by an attacker there should be no way that he could bring any infantry through without first creating a safe passage. Infantry just should not be allowed to walk through a minefield.  Second, if a minefield is identified there should be a way to create a safe path through it. Think of it in this terms. An action spot in CM is 8 by 8 meters (I hope I am right on this). A team of engineers is 4-5 people. They should be able to create a safe path through the minefield in 2-3 minutes (if not under fire of course).

Am I missing something?

 

 

Well, a friend of mine was engineer in the Bundeswehr. He said, they could not completely clear minefields, which they laid just days before, even with a mine laying plan at hand.

So, clear an enemies minefield quickly and under combat conditions? I don't believe that is possible. Not at this game scale.

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Clearing minefields, even under ideal conditions, was difficult, dangerous, and time consuming. Which probably explains the code-name for El Alamein. "Operation Lightfoot".

I think the way the game handles mines is spot on for the short time span covered in most missions. 

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19 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Clearing minefields, even under ideal conditions, was difficult, dangerous, and time consuming. Which probably explains the code-name for El Alamein. "Operation Lightfoot".

I think the way the game handles mines is spot on for the short time span covered in most missions. 

Yep, I fully agree.

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I tried using mark mines command and it works (for the most part. sometimes here and there troops still step on the mines but that i can live with).

I still think that infantry should not be allowed to walk on the known minefield without a safe path if not panicked. I don't think any allied or German commander would order his troops to cross a know minefield without making a passage through it. What do you think?

Of course clearing a substantially large minefield is an an operation that requires a lot of time and effort. But we normally don't deal with those situations at th scale of CM battles. We run into minefields that are 8 by 8 meters.  I expect a team of engineers to be able to create a safe path through such a field in 2-3 minutes. Keep in mind that I don't expect them to clear the whole square of mines but rather create a path 1x8 meters that is free of mines (not under fire of course). Am I asking for too much?

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A useful post from another thread as far as mines are concerned that you might find helpful

 

On April 22, 2016 at 5:14 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

For what it is worth here is my current Flail Tank Drill: 

1. Provide security for the flail tank. 

2. Ensure at least two open A/S between infantry and flail area.

3. Consider having the flail tank Pop Smoke1.

4. Give flail tank Clear Mines2 order through the suspected minefield.

5. A path should be created of green signs with a white X. All mines detonated.  

Notes: 1) Wait until next turn for smoke to develop before advancing. A US Sherman Crab can Pop Smoke 3 times.  2) The Clear Mines order will auto button tank & rotate turret to the rear. This order can be activated anywhere, anytime.

Combat%20Engineer%20Course%20Minefield%2

Some general notes as I understand minefields.  Any advice or corrections are welcome. 

Engineers can Mark Mines in the same action spot as the mines or from an adjacent action spot. 

If engineers Mark Mines from an adjacent action spot they will crawl into the mine A/S when mine marking is completed.

The more eyes in an engineer team the easier to spot mines.  (5 man team finds mines easier than a 2 man team)  I think.

Veteran engineers, that are not suppressed, can mark one minefield action spot in 2-3 minutes.

Engineers can most reliably and safely locate unidentified minefields using the Slow command.  

Marking a minefield substantially reduces the chance of triggering a mine for infantry traversing the minefield.

Antitank minefields can be marked but there is no effect. Infantry can traverse them without risk and vehicles don't benefit from marking.

Mines cannot be placed on bridges.  They can go in the river bottom under the bridge but have no effect. 

US Breech teams contain engineers and can also mark minefields.  

Minefields can be neutralized by heavy artillery (150mm+), if it scores a direct hit.

Minefields can be neutralized by a blast from a demo charge if there is a blastable obstacle (wire) in the action spot.

Anti-personnel mines do not strongly affect vehicles.

Red sign with a skull and crossbones = Active non-marked minefield.

Off white sign with a skull and crossbones = A marked minefield. 

Green sign with a white X = Neutralized minefield (all mines detonated)

 

 

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2 hours ago, Larsen said:

Am I asking for too much?

I think so. Just off the top of my head, expecting to clear a path 8 meters long in 2-3 minutes strikes me as unreasonable. Mines are inherently dangerous and sometimes are booby-trapped to make clearing them even more dangerous. That being the case you want to be really careful, and that means taking your time to search for signs of the mines themselves and of any tricks. For an 8 meter path I wouldn't regard a time of 15 or even 20 minutes as unreasonable. For some mines you could simply avoid, that's what the tape is for. But some are going to be in the middle of your path. Those you have to identify, disarm, dig up, and move to the side. And you don't want to get blown up in the process. All that takes time. This may give you the idea of why means of mechanical mine removal such as flails, plows, or rollers were invented.

Michael

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45 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

 All that takes time. This may give you the idea of why means of mechanical mine removal such as flails, plows, or rollers were invented.

That and doing the work manually under fire does not just take longer it becomes impossible.

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21 hours ago, Larsen said:

 

Of course clearing a substantially large minefield is an an operation that requires a lot of time and effort. But we normally don't deal with those situations at th scale of CM battles. We run into minefields that are 8 by 8 meters.  I expect a team of engineers to be able to create a safe path through such a field in 2-3 minutes. Keep in mind that I don't expect them to clear the whole square of mines but rather create a path 1x8 meters that is free of mines (not under fire of course). Am I asking for too much?

I think what you are asking for is already in the game... you mark the mines, which gives you a safe passage to walk single-file through that 8x8m patch of mines. Once the mines are marked, you can move troops through, just remember to use the SLOW command to represent troops walking one by one and really watching where they step. Don't use the MOVE command, it makes troops start to run if just 1 bullet hits close by. And you don't want them to start running in the minefield.

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True that, unless you're 100% certain there'll be no incoming fire around the minefield, have them crawl through it if it can't be bypassed altogether, almost regardless how long the route around is. Even one unit triggering a mine will cause the others around them to start stampeding, setting off an ugly (unless you're the defender!) domino effect of panicked soldiers running haywire in a minefield.

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The problem is that marked minefield does not equal clear path through mines. I marked one action spot and moved two platoons of regular troops (using hunt command) through it. I moved one team at a time and still triggered mines twice.

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1 hour ago, Larsen said:

The problem is that marked minefield does not equal clear path through mines. I marked one action spot and moved two platoons of regular troops (using hunt command) through it. I moved one team at a time and still triggered mines twice.

You realise that's a feature not a problem. It is intended behaviour that a "marked" minefield is not 100% safe to cross. And that certainly doesn't seem unreasonable in the chaos of combat. Me, I use Slow rather than Hunt to cross marked mines. Can't recall losing anyone, using Slow, even in the last mission of Courage and Fortitude where ISTR sneaking an entire (well, less casualties from previous engagements) company through "Marked" fields. Though that was v1.[low], so probabilities might've changed since then.

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On 26/4/2016 at 9:29 PM, Rambler said:

I've found using tank crews from knocked out tanks most effective at clearing mind fields. Super easy. Highly recommend.

No offense, but the moment I start playing the game like that, I will stop playing it.

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On 4/26/2016 at 2:29 PM, Rambler said:

I've found using tank crews from knocked out tanks most effective at clearing mind fields. Super easy. Highly recommend.

I know your probably joking but this reminded me of something I have read on the forum .................  Tank crews have a higher point value so some players are careful to move the dismounted ones to safety.  I'm not sure of the mechanics of this.  Maybe in scenarios where the designer assigns the points??  But in any case something else to think about and maybe investigate.      

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1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Tank crews have a higher point value...

What is your thinking that something like this should also apply to other troops with advanced specialized training, like ATG crews for instance?

Michael

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13 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

What is your thinking that something like this should also apply to other troops with advanced specialized training, like ATG crews for instance?

Michael

In general I think point values are a useful tool for scenario designers to shape their scenarios with.  If the mission of the scenario is: Take out the AT guns on the ridgeline in order to allow the battalion to advance down the valley, then yes those guns should probably have a higher point value than most other assets in the scenario.

Quick battles are yet a different situation.  I’m not sure if points are different for different type units, like tank crews.  From page 24 of CM Engine Manual v3.01

   Victory conditions for Quick Battles are much more limited than for Campaigns and Battles. Only two types of victory conditions are available:

1 - Terrain objective zones. These are always considered as OCCUPY zones.

2 - A set number of points are rewarded for causing enemy unit casualties. The more casualties caused, the more points are awarded.

The Victory Points for terrain objectives and casualties in Quick Battles are adjusted dynamically based on the battle type (assault, Attack, Probe, Meeting Engagement). A Meeting Engagement will offer more VP for inflicting casualties, and less VP for holding ground objectives. Assaults on the other hand will award far more VP for holding ground objectives and emphasize casualties much less. Attacks and Probes are somewhere between Meeting Engagement and Assault in emphasizing casualties over ground objectives.

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