The epic Bulge movie that never was

[Abbasid111]

I haven't seen it for a while but I thought the 1993 German "Stalingrad" was pretty good. 

Hands down, IMHO, the best WW2 film is Das Boote. 

[Pak40]

29 minutes ago, Myles Keogh said:

A big +1.

"Battleground" is approaching its 70th birthday and still stands as the best Bulge movie and one of the best and most accurate depictions of the American GI. 

I thoroughly enjoyed Battleground when I first saw it back in the 80s but I've seen it at least twice since then and it gets more and more dated. There's a lot of Hollywood lingo that really bugs me. It's more of a film about soldiers and their personalities than it is about the defense of Bastogne. It's not necessarily a bad thing but you could almost put that script on any front line setting. Bastogne fit the bill because they could just fog up the set and film the entire thing in a Hollywood set.

 

39 minutes ago, Myles Keogh said:

It also thankfully contains none of the petty backbiting, slander, and elitism that mars "Band of Brothers" which aped entire scenes from "Battleground" for its Bulge episodes.

You've lost me here. How does it ape Battleground?

[CCIP]

4 hours ago, Abbasid111 said:

I haven't seen it for a while but I thought the 1993 German "Stalingrad" was pretty good. 

Hands down, IMHO, the best WW2 film is Das Boote. 

I liked that Stalingrad as well! (There is an older German movie by the same title as well, from I think the 60s, which I would still like to see). The 1993 Stalingrad is good if you're into the German "anti-war war films" (of which Das Boot is definitely the finest example) - it definitely ranks up there as probably the most depressing war film I've ever seen. And Das Boot is not exactly a happy-ending movie either...

Sort of on the topic - I just bumped into a youtube recommendation, an Estonian film from last year called "1944". It is apparently about the Estonian SS fighting the Russians. Doesn't look too bad: 

Has anyone seen this one?

[JonS]

JasonC got quite upset the last time that clip was posted.

[mbarbaric]

couldn't watch it till the end... russians seem to hav brought the tanks there just to have them destroyed

plus, what a guy on youtube noticed...

2:23 Loads MP40 - Shoots STG 44...

Edited April 22, 2016 by mbarbaric

[Sublime]

Enemy at the Gates was the title used for the movie but it was based on the novel War of the Rats P Wenman mentioned.

Also Ive heard lots of disputes that Zaitsev had that high of a kill count. Certainly there were very high scoring Soviet snipers but most stuff I ran into lately drastically reduced his kill count to 80 something.  I think the highest scoring sniper of all time was Finnish and had in the range of 250 something kills.

The German anti sniper is a story from Soviet propaganda. There has never been any conclusive proof there was a Colonel or sometimes a Major sent from Zossen to hunt down Zaitsev. Other authors have even looked into common names given for the German sniper and there was never an instructor at the school under the name. Sure Enemy at thw Gates cites it.. but its from 1965. What are the sources for that? As in what sources do the author cite? I have no doubt Zaitsev was a person. I dont believe that there was a duel between him and the head of the German sniper school.

[nik mond]

I received War of the Rats in an anonymous "to any soldier" package in Kandahar 10 years ago. I pretty much drank this book as it was my only source of distraction when I found time to read this novel. I later did some cursory research to separate fact from fiction, and was surprised to learn there might be more fact to it than people realize.

The author David Robbins interviewed Zaitsev in person, at the time the famous sniper was an elderly blind man living in modest surroundings. He gave a detailed account to any question Robbins had.

Composite characters and details were in the novel but this was a literary tool to bring forth details that became known in time.

There are also Soviet regimental logs and records available but it is hard to separate commissar embellishments from the truth. But they backed up some facts.  

 "The real man - according to Robbins, Heinz Thorvald - was a sniper instructor at Gnossen, outside of Berlin.  His skill with a rifle was renown" Major Konig was likely a Nazi cover for morale-hit purposes, its a common name. This still doesn't make it unconditionally true, these examples and cross referenced details all come from the same subject matter expert: Robbins. But by all appearance Robbins did seem to do his research.

... On a related note David Robbins wrote an unpublished "additional" final chapter, and this can be found online. Its seems the fans were not satisfied with the way the story ended with so many unanswered questions after Thorvald gets killed. So if you want to know the fate of Corporal Nikki Mond (no relation)  And if he survives the final days in Stalingrad, its worth the read for closure.

 

[Sublime]

I read the novel in high school late 90s. Loved it. Still Konig, Thorvald. The debate has raged I dont believe it. Not out of any belief of superiority of one side or the other but because

1. Half the period roughly the Germans were there the only way in or out was very perilous air routes with space and cargo on a premium.

2. Why send one guy to hunt Zaitsev in an entire city of combat? Anything could happen to him and  he could vanish off the earth. Seems very unlike the Germans to not have anyone who recollects this on their side or records. Why wasnt a team of snipers sent? Or a reward on killing Zaitsev passed amongst snipers? The Germans placed bounties on other mens heads such as Clark Gable in the 8th AAF.

3. Again why are the only people who remember anything about the head of a German sniper school Soviet? Ive never read a 2nd or 1st hand account from the Germans. The Germans also had plenty of snipers in the city as did the Soviets. How did the Soviets even truly know Zaitsev was coming? What.d a German  plan crash with all the details of THAT plan just like the one before the start of the whole disastrous Op Blau?

[Myles Keogh]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 11:18 AM, nik mond said:

That explains it, I often wondered why all the characters were fictionalized. Fort Drum in the winter would have made for a better environment than the Arid location the where that movie took place. 

That "Arid location" was the plains of Spain.  Throughout the 1960's, Francisco Franco loaned out his army and country's locales relatively on the cheap to numerous film productions.  Name a big budget epic from the 60's and more likely than not it was filmed in Spain with its "cast of thousands" being Spanish Army soldiers.  Ever wonder why all those American POWs in the beginning of "Patton" all have dark hair and swarthy skin? All Spaniards.  As were the English Civil War armies in "Cromwell" and the Roman legions in "Spartacus" and "Fall of the Roman Empire."

The big tank battle in "Battle of the Bulge" was filmed in some Spanish Army training area with American made Patton M-47s (representing King Tigers) and M-24 Chaffees (representing Shermans.)  Since the Chaffee did see some action late in the Bulge, the film producers actually had to nerve to claim in a "making-of" advertisement that their film had the "real type of tanks used in the battle."  (I once tried to dissuade someone out of his belief that those M-47s were actually King Tigers due to his accepting the nonsense spouted by the film's producers in the nearly 50 year old pre-release hype film that was included as an extra on the DVD.  Despite overwhelming evidence (and just common sense) to the contrary (yeah, the mid-1960's Spanish Army had an entire battalion of pristine PzKpfw VIb's), he just didn't want to believe (or admit) that he had been snowed by a commercial.)

Those Spanish Army M-47s also saw duty again in "Patton."

Edited April 24, 2016 by Myles Keogh

[Michael Emrys]

A Bridge Too Far took a different route. Wherever possible they used real Shermans, though not necessarily the appropriate models. But in order to fill out some scenes they built fiberglass replicas and mounted them on automobile (VW?) chassis. If you look closely you can see the tracks not moving and the drive wheels not turning in some quick shots, but the producers and directors were pretty good at keeping that from showing.

Michael

[Myles Keogh]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 9:53 PM, Pak40 said:

I thoroughly enjoyed Battleground when I first saw it back in the 80s but I've seen it at least twice since then and it gets more and more dated. There's a lot of Hollywood lingo that really bugs me. It's more of a film about soldiers and their personalities than it is about the defense of Bastogne. It's not necessarily a bad thing but you could almost put that script on any front line setting. Bastogne fit the bill because they could just fog up the set and film the entire thing in a Hollywood set.

 

You've lost me here. How does it ape Battleground?

Ok, you don't have as high an opinion of "Battleground" as I do.  Fine.

As for BoB "aping" "Battleground."  If you don't see similarities or, at least, the influence of "Battleground" upon BoB's Bulge episodes then that's fine, too.  However, I definitely see them.  Everything from the drilling, the truck ride, the "field" hospital," the Christmas service with a jeep as an altar, and even its use of a massive sound stage for its Winter Wonderland scenes shows that someone behind BoB admired William Wellman's movie.  Steven Spielberg, BoB's executive producer, is on record as being a fan of "Battleground" which also reinforces my belief it was an influence.  BoB even makes a reference to the inter-divisional football games for which "Battleground's" Sgt. Wolowizc was practicing.  Finally, both movies have scenes showing the retreat of remnants of the 28th Infantry Division.  How "Battleground" represents those men of the Bloody Bucket in comparison to how BoB portrays them is another reason why my once very high opinion of the HBO miniseries has fallen.  

[Pak40]

12 hours ago, Myles Keogh said:

Ok, you don't have as high an opinion of "Battleground" as I do.  Fine.

As for BoB "aping" "Battleground."  If you don't see similarities or, at least, the influence of "Battleground" upon BoB's Bulge episodes then that's fine, too.  However, I definitely see them.  Everything from the drilling, the truck ride, the "field" hospital," the Christmas service with a jeep as an altar, and even its use of a massive sound stage for its Winter Wonderland scenes shows that someone behind BoB admired William Wellman's movie.  Steven Spielberg, BoB's executive producer, is on record as being a fan of "Battleground" which also reinforces my belief it was an influence.  BoB even makes a reference to the inter-divisional football games for which "Battleground's" Sgt. Wolowizc was practicing.  Finally, both movies have scenes showing the retreat of remnants of the 28th Infantry Division.  How "Battleground" represents those men of the Bloody Bucket in comparison to how BoB portrays them is another reason why my once very high opinion of the HBO miniseries has fallen.  

Of course there are going to be similar elements because they're both based on historical events. I's almost like saying Saving Private Ryan apes The Longest Day because there's a beach landing in it too. And of the two productions, BoB is based on an actual unit about actual people. Claiming that BoB apes Battleground seems a little harsh. Your first post makes it sound like outright plagiarism, but maybe you mean to say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

[Warts 'n' all]

16 hours ago, Myles Keogh said:

Ever wonder why all those American POWs in the beginning of "Patton" all have dark hair and swarthy skin? All Spaniards.  As were the English Civil War armies in "Cromwell" 

Spanish Catholics masquerading as my fine puritan troops? Heads will roll for this.