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Nitouche

Strange Barbed wire with V3.0

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Hello Guys :)

I think there is a problem with barbed wire in V3.0

indeed, in version 2.0 of the game engine, some vehicles are able to cross barbed wire:

B17.jpg

B18.jpg

* Vehicles like Jeeps are not able to cross barbed wire, they get around if possible

* Halftracks and wheeled vehicles are able to cross; however the barbed wire remain intact

* Tanks (light to heavy) are able to cross; int that case, the barbed wire is detroyed

* Infantry cant cross, but blast is possible if well equipped 

 

In V3.0...

Wires-1.jpg

Nobody can cross barbed wire...!

If there a way, units get around... but if there's no way, they remain stationary

Wires-2.jpg

Even KingTiger !

Wires-4.jpg

50 X 88 mm rounds cant destroy barbed wire...

Wires-7.jpg

Only 150 mm round can open a way...

Wires-6.jpg

...and blast remain possible...

Wires-8.jpg

Conclusion: what are the relevant of hedgehog obstacles ? Barbed Wire is Better ! 

(there is a problem, no ?)

Edited by Nitouche

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I had similar behaviour in "Lions of Carpiquet" second mission that felt unusal. Even flail-tanks would take a long detour to find a small gap in wire rather than just going over. That was under 3.11.

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33 minutes ago, Nitouche said:

* Halftracks and wheeled vehicles are able to cross; however the barbed wire remain intact

This sounds like a bug in itself - that the wire remains intact.

Edited by Bulletpoint

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The longer the distance from vehicle-to-waypoint the more discretion the vehicle drive has (or thinks he has) in picking a route. If I want a vehicle to drive through a wall (or barbed wire) I usually plot a point up to a wall and plot another point just beyond it. I actually got myself into trouble in a game yesterday, plotted a move a bit too far away without taking obstacles into consideration. The driver elected to take a route with least number of obstructions - right into the path of a tank sitting in ambush. Its been awhile since I encountered barbed wire. I'll take a look. I was surprised to see wheeled vehicle crossing barbed wire at all.

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Yes, but in that case, if there is no gap, there is no movement for all

In QB, you can (for example) completely lock an area or canalize ennemy efficiently with little points. Only blast charges or 150 mm can force another path

My test map:

barbed-wire-10.jpg

"I was surprised to see wheeled vehicle crossing barbed wire at all."

In V2.0, not in V3.0 

 

Edited by Nitouche

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Why wheeled vehicles can't cross I understand (it's a massive barbed wire obstacle after all. Good luck getting even halfway through that with your car IRL), but I've never had an issue getting tracked vehicles to cross. Strangely enough though, in the Peiper campaign I sent halftracks though a wire obstacle. They went through it, but the obstacle was still there after they'd crossed. Intended?

In regards to shelling it: Again, it's a large well prepared obstacle. An 88mm HE shell only contains that much explosive, so I see why it doesn't destroy it. 150mm sounds more right (which seems to be the lower threshold for destroying obstacles (mines need the same IIRC to detonate)).

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I am 100% sure that i crossed barb wire with a tank in the third mission of KG Peiper. Afterwards a piece of wire was missing. I drove 10 vehicles( pz and ht) through the hole, the 11th triggered a mine, that was placed right behind it....

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You also had that happen? Must've spent quarter of an hour replaying that to understand what happened, as one tank drove though without any issues, and the second one triggered so many mines (2-3) that actually killed most of the crew!

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Well, as said, 2 pzIV and 7-9 halftracks. The last halftrack set off the mine tile killing a whole squad and the ht crew of 2. After seeing this i felt that i had been totally lucky there driving so many vehicles over the mine tile.

Edited by SlowLarry

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I wonder whether frozen ground reduces the detonation chances of mines emplaced before the cold snap... If the fuse is mechanical and below ground level (as some vehicle mines are) or the mine parts are subject to icing up, it might... Anyone know if that's a real consideration (let alone whether it's modelled)?

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Hedges have always been passable for infantry and vehicles.  The low bocage (which is what you are probably talking about) is passable in CMRT and CMBF because it is not representing actual bocage just some thick vegetation.  I personally would prefer that it look different too but there ya go.

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1 hour ago, Childress said:

Also, in the Demo I noticed that vehicles and infantry can pass through low hedges, albeit slowly. IIRC, this behavior was verboten in the other games.

Troops will now go through the hedges in CMFB also. It's not bocage like in CMBN, as IanL has pointed out. I also suspect that these hedges in CMFB do not have the same protective benefits that the bocage did in CMBN. They will be good for concealment but probably not good for cover.

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I was looking at this earlier, partly because of some confusion about where it's being reported. So, in CMFB I tested it, and the barbed wire does, indeed, seem impassable. Haven't gone back to CMBN and looked yet.

The "Low Bocage", as it's still referred to in the editor,  is, as expected, passable by all vehicles from a Kubel up through trucks and light armour. Watching them cross though, it does look like there's a bit of a berm which might provide some cover for prone infantry, though not as much as tall Bocage did in CMBN.

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I have explanation :)

When barbed wire is placed straight right on squares, like that:

droit.jpg

Pathfinding has difficulty to allow the crossing... it prefer get around...if possible...or the unit remain immobile

When the barbed wire is places diagonally, there's no problem, the crossing is possible following the shortest path

diag2.jpg

(sorry for my english...there's further explanation...in combatmission.fr site ...in french

Edited by Nitouche

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16 hours ago, Childress said:

Also, in the Demo I noticed that vehicles and infantry can pass through low hedges, albeit slowly. IIRC, this behavior was verboten in the other games.

As best I recall, in BN there were three flavors of hedge obstacle, high bocage, low bocage, and hedge. Both flavors of bocage were impassible to vehicles unless a gap had been blasted or opened using a Cullen Plow. But hedges proper were always passable. At least I think so. The problem was that low bocage looked a lot like hedge, so it could take a lot of close examination to distinguish the two types, especially as scenario and map designers sometimes liked to mix up the three types. So you might have a row of low bocage with a few meters of hedge thrown in here and there. The hedge would block LOS but not movement.

Michael

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22 hours ago, IanL said:

Hedges have always been passable for infantry and vehicles.  The low bocage (which is what you are probably talking about) is passable in CMRT and CMBF because it is not representing actual bocage just some thick vegetation.  I personally would prefer that it look different too but there ya go.

I would actually prefer the opposite; that the low bocage of Normandy be made to look bigger and sturdier, making it more obvious to the player what it's supposed to represent. It currently just looks like, well, a garden hedge.

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5 hours ago, Nitouche said:

I have explanation :)

When barbed wire is placed straight right on squares, like that:

Pathfinding has difficulty to allow the crossing... it prefer get around...if possible...or the unit remain immobile

When the barbed wire is places diagonally, there's no problem, the crossing is possible following the shortest path

 

(sorry for my english...there's further explanation...in combatmission.fr site ...in french

I get what you're trying to say, and it's certainly significant that diagonally-placed barbed wire can be driven over by eligible vehicles, whereas orthoganally-oriented wire cannot, I don't think it's to do with pathing. If the linear obstacle can be crushed (whether it be a fence, wall or wire) it has very little effect on pathing calculations: for "going round" to be quicker, the gap would have to be very close indeed, and the vehicle pointed at it already.

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1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

the low bocage of Normandy be made to look bigger and sturdier, making it more obvious to the player what it's supposed to represent. It currently just looks like, well, a garden hedge.

Actually I said "look different".  Over the years I have said many times that I would like to see the low bocage look a lot more foreboding.  So, we totally agree.

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4 minutes ago, IanL said:

Actually I said "look different".  Over the years I have said many times that I would like to see the low bocage look a lot more foreboding.  So, we totally agree.

I was just splitting hairs, what I meant was that instead of changing the look of the new big hedge to look even smaller, I would prefer to keep it looking like it does, and then change the look of the low bocage in CMBN, so that it looks bigger and stronger. So yes, we agree :)

Edited by Bulletpoint

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Did some testing on my own and I second Nitouche in her conclusions :

greyxit_2.jpg

greyxit_3.jpg

Result for both :

greyxit_4.jpg

Coming closer doesn't change a thing :

greyxit_5.jpg

greyxit_6.jpg

greyxit_7.jpg

greyxit_8.jpg

 

The only way I'm able to get over that one is to find a diagonally placed obstacle and face it :

greyxit_9.jpggreyxit_10.jpg

 

Same goes for 8-wheeled German cars :

aufxit_1.jpg

 

Anyone could easily double check that, really.

 

 

 

Edited by CMFDR

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