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CMFDR

[REF] Italian period tactical symbols

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Oh dear!
I'm learning a lot of things about my country...

 

// --------------------------------------------------
P.S Translation:


1) Platoon diagram symbols:
-Comandante di plotone (Platoon commander)
-Comandante di squadra (Squad commander)
-Graduato (Corporal)
-Fuciliere (Rifle Soldier)
-Porta munizioni (Ammo-bearer)


2) 6078-military-symbols-redux:
-Compagnia carri M (Medium tank M13-M14 Company)
-Compagnia carri L (Light tank Company. The Renault R 35 was considered a light tank)
-Compagnia semovente 75/18 (Self-propelled gun 75/18 Company)
-Compagnia semovente 47/32 (Tank hunter 47/32 Company)
-Compagnia autoblinda (Armored car Company)

-Batteria (Battery)
-Cannoni (Guns)
-Obici (Howitzers)
-Cannoni per fanteria 65/17 (Infantry guns 65/17)
-Cannoni controcarro 47/32 (Anti-tank guns 47/32)
-Cannoni controaerei (Flak)

-Autodrappello (Transport/Trucks)

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And I learned a lot today to.

1st Thing. Don't worry Bill-this is only a BRZ file that overwrites the Italian Tactical Symbols that are German right now. The only thing I am using is the color and icon gif shape. So thanks for the permission.

Below is a number key list matches the proposed icons in the screenshot. You can figure it out.Before anything is committed to graphics we have to agree on the icons.  To that end I have used the manual, your translations (helps with BING and GOOGLE searches) and screen captures and suggestions to produce this key. Look it over, ponder it-ask questions-nothing is written in cement.  Everyone one of them is a Gen-U-WINE Royal Italian Tactical sign-circa 1935-1942 - absolutely no NATO or Wehrmacht b.s. :lol:

The standard here is Grognard.

The Green question marks on two of them #1 and #8 I couldn't make up my mind. The Ammo Bearers suggested I think is a dedicated position for supply (cache) not people carrying ammo IMHO.

To that end here is the screenshot and the key. Have fun. Like to get a Beta out by May 2nd. If I can't well I can't.

My apologies on the Italian spelling-Royal Italian Army Manual pdf isn't clear. I did learn genio has to do with Engineering-but you put Plotono Genio in the translator you get Genius. One other thing the Reconnaissance Vehicles SPA-Viberti AS.42will have to be armored cars with icons-they are not separate like Light Tanks and Tankettes with their own icon. That is just how the game is set up-even though there is an icon for it. Too bad.

Proposed%20Italian%20Icons_zpswop4e91w.j

  1. Anti Tank Team  - ?????

     

  2. Anti Tank Gun  - cannoni anticarro

     

  3. Flak Gun  - NONE

     

  4. Infantry Gun  -Sezione cannoni per fanteria o batteria              

                                                d'accompagnamento

  1. Light Mg  - fucile mitragliatore

     

  2. Heavy Mg  - squadra mitragilieri

     

  3. Mortar  - mortaio d'assalto Brixia mod.35

     

  4. Ammo Bearer -  ?????

     

  5. Infantry  - pattuglia

     

  6. Reconnaisance  -

    pattuglia di osservazione e collegamento  

        *OR* pattuglia o gruppo di vedette

     

  7. Engineer/Pioneer  - plotone genio

     

  8. Sniper  - NONE (No sniper for Italians in game !)

     

  9. Forward Observer  - osservatorio di artiglieria

     

  10. HQ  - SHARED ICON WITH GERMANS CANNOT BE CHANGED

     

  11. Armored Car  - autoblindomitragliatrice

     

  12. Half-Track  -  NONE

     

  13. Light Tank  - carro veloce  [TANKETTE] AND    carro d’assaluto Light Tank

     

  14. Medium Tank  - NONE

     

  15. Heavy Tank  - NONE

     

  16. SP Gun  - Compagnia Semovente 75/18

     

  17. Tank Destroyer  - Compagnia Semovente 47/32

     

  18. Heavy Truck  - autosezione leggera

     

  19. Light Truck  - NONE

     

  20. LT Truck Hvy Weapon  - NONE

     

  21. LT Truck AT  -  NONE

     

  22. FOW Infantry  - DUPLICATE OF #9

     

  23. FOW Heavy Gun  -  squadra mitraglieri controaerei

     

  24. FOW Gun  - cannone c. a.

     

  25. FOW Light Tank  - DUPLICATE OF #17

     

  26. FOW HVY/MED Tank  - NONE

     

  27. FOW Truck  - DUPLICATE OF #22

     

 

 

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Hi

11) Engineer/Pioneer  - In italian, Genio has 2 meanings (Genius OR engineering, depending on the context). So: PLOTONE GENIO is correct


8) Ammo Bearer -  The Italian Infantry squad had 18 men organized into a gruppo fucilieri (8 men) and a gruppo mitragliatori (8 men). The "gruppo mitragliatori" (Light machine gun Group) had 4 ammunition bearers, called PORTA MUNIZIONI (see: Italian Platoon Diagram). 
IMHO, you could use this symbol.

Edited by amidali

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Question, is your goal to only have these icons for Italian units?  Reason I ask is because there are a lot of shared icons between the Germans and the Italians so isolating just the Italians will be tough.

Also, if you mean to use different icons for the Allies then the mix of icons on the game-map will look odd.  I personally do not believe in using different icons for different nations unless that is the standard (for example in modern tactical symbols, the individual tank symbol differs from blue force to red force).  If I was creating this set then I would use the same icons for all nations, not Italian icons for the Italians, German icons for the Germans, and Allied icons for the US and UK forces.  If you go this route (one icon set for all) then you will need a sniper and a heavy tank icon even though the Italians have neither.

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1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Question, is your goal to only have these icons for Italian units?  Reason I ask is because there are a lot of shared icons between the Germans and the Italians so isolating just the Italians will be tough.

Also, if you mean to use different icons for the Allies then the mix of icons on the game-map will look odd.  I personally do not believe in using different icons for different nations unless that is the standard (for example in modern tactical symbols, the individual tank symbol differs from blue force to red force).  If I was creating this set then I would use the same icons for all nations, not Italian icons for the Italians, German icons for the Germans, and Allied icons for the US and UK forces.  If you go this route (one icon set for all) then you will need a sniper and a heavy tank icon even though the Italians have neither.

This is my philosophy as well.  Because of the shared icons I would create a set of Italian icons that covered all the Axis forces and people could then choose if they wanted German symbols, Italian symbols or the Allied symbols for the Axis.  I tried the mixed nation thing and did not like the look.  I do differ on @Bil Hardenberger a bit in that if the shared icons were fixed so that each nation had its own HQ, sniper and FO icons I would be all over making nation specific sets that would live side by each.

BTW your FO icons is also in the same boat as the HQ icon - they are shared.

 

49 minutes ago, Fizou said:

Could the tagging system work for these Icons.. I guess not?

I am sure tagging can be used but for what purpose?  Are you suggesting that an italianicon tag be created that could then replace all icons. I think it could but then scenarios would have to be created / edited to have the Italian icons show up.  I am not sure what would happen to QBs.

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14 minutes ago, IanL said:

I do differ on @Bil Hardenberger a bit in that if the shared icons were fixed so that each nation had its own HQ, sniper and FO icons I would be all over making nation specific sets that would live side by each.

Oh I am all over that too Ian.. in fact my CMFI, CMBN, and CMBS sets are all nation specific, but with the limitations imposed on us by the shared icons I only change the selected state of the icons in the nation specific folders.  The shared icons are something I have been fighting against since the CMSF days

Edited by Bil Hardenberger

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Thanks Aildali-will do with # 8. When investigating #11 correct icon I didn't realize the Italian Pioneers played such a big part capturing Tobruck. Looks like they used flamethrowers to at Tobruck!! I'll post that link and pdf at a later post tonight.

My goal is is only to change the icons that are Italian-keep the colors similar for both German and Italians-only symbol changes. So an HQ icon that both share will have the same color as the nation specific icons. There shouldn't be any conflicts with icons that have the name GERMAN and ITALIAN in the file name. You should have mixed units in the field with no problem (see link below to other posts). FOW icons have are also noted by specific county names to. I could go into say the CM Final Blitzkrieg file explode the icon file for Germans and label the US icon units that are for the GERMAN counterfeit units and give them US icons BECAUSE they have a GERMAN nation specific name in their file name for that US unit. You explode the FLOATING ICON file in FB and you will see this. You can even do that with your icon set Bill-use your US icons for the GERMAN counterfeit US units..  See here my posts and screens in this string.

 

Below is a screen shot from exploded ITALIAN FI icons. The key is the country name in the file name.

Tagging should work-this will be tested. Should be obvious with the first BETA

Italians  have their own FOW icons. Gotta go to work. Hope I answered the interrogatories.If not be back tonight

icon_zpsmwwtctas.png

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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I agree with you that the three dots symbols probably better depict an ammo dump than an ammo bearer. Now I think that what matches best CM ammo-bearer is the little guy Amidali mentioned which is found at platoon (rifle, MG, mortars) level :

c9c357876fec86550e81bb089ee9c330.png

The icon n°9 and 26 (infantry) with a black circle depict, from the manual, a patrol ("patruglia") or a platoon commander ("Comandante di plotone") while riflemen (Fuciliere) would be the same with an hollow circle instead.

About the your icon n°4, 5, 6 and 11, I think the black square denotes a platoon, the horizontal line at the bottom depicts a squad ("squadra"), and the right handed wave at the top (a banner I guess) depicts a cavalry unit. Thus they could be omitted imho.

Wings on top of icons n°27 and 28 denotes antiair (controaerei) weapons afaik.

As for Génio and other Italian words online translator can't really get, the Handbook on the Italian Military Forces (TME 30-420) you linked, thanks for that btw, does have a lexicon from p. 352.

As for n°10, scouts are "esploratori" in italian, as per TME 30-420, but I just can't find any symbol for them so I would say that the crossed circle symbol depicting osservazione e collegamento pattuglia (observation and liaison patrol) is a close enough shot, considering what we do know atm.

Now, last but not least, the AT team. I must admit I'm left me clueless as I just can't find such a team in the manuals nor I know what they equipment is ingame. Would you know in which formation they are to be found?

All in all Tempest, despite details such as above, I like the flavor that your icons already have, good job man.

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6 hours ago, CMFDR said:

I agree with you that the three dots symbols probably better depict an ammo dump than an ammo bearer. Now I think that what matches best CM ammo-bearer is the little guy Amidali mentioned which is found at platoon (rifle, MG, mortars) level :

c9c357876fec86550e81bb089ee9c330.pngDONE

The icon n°9 and 26 (infantry) with a black circle depict, from the manual, a patrol ("patruglia") or a platoon commander ("Comandante di plotone") while riflemen (Fuciliere) would be the same with an hollow circle instead. DONE

About the your icon n°4, 5, 6 and 11, I think the black square denotes a platoon, the horizontal line at the bottom depicts a squad ("squadra"), and the right handed wave at the top (a banner I guess) depicts a cavalry unit. Thus they could be omitted imho. Change it like i have changed it now?

Wings on top of icons n°27 and 28 denotes antiair (controaerei) weapons afaik. DONE

As for Génio and other Italian words online translator can't really get, the Handbook on the Italian Military Forces (TME 30-420) you linked, thanks for that btw, does have a lexicon from p. 352.

As for n°10, scouts are "esploratori" in italian, as per TME 30-420, but I just can't find any symbol for them so I would say that the crossed circle symbol depicting osservazione e collegamento pattuglia (observation and liaison patrol) is a close enough shot, considering what we do know atm. As I understand it leave it with the cross circle-DONE

Now, last but not least, the AT team. I must admit I'm left me clueless as I just can't find such a team in the manuals nor I know what they equipment is ingame. Would you know in which formation they are to be found? You know-I don't think they had a dedicated AT section either with Infantry-they had AT GUNS and Tanks in AT roles but like you I couldn't find anything. Even when I read about some of the repelling of British tank attacks at Tobruk I didn't read anything about dedicated AT Infantry units. I propose we leave it with the infantry system.

All in all Tempest, despite details such as above, I like the flavor that your icons already have, good job man. Thanks-we're getting there.

See corrected below-red x'd out changes as I understood from your post. OOPS Forgot to x out the winged icon on #27. It's replacement is on it's right.Proposed%20Italian%20Icons_zpsvtxyixny.j

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Change it like i have changed it now? I like what you done!

About the shared icon, what about including them so end-users can choose which one to display?

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CMFDR: Let me think how to do that.

 

BILL:

Yes-They have an AT Gun-but no separate unit with a dedicated icon we could find. I'm still looking.

At Tobruk the Italians used an assault engineering unit (man below led that unit) with explosives meant to breach defenses - but I didn't read where that some Italian infantry stepped in with some dedicated AT tank handheld weapon or doctrinal use. Albeit I realize this was only one action but they did'nt have 'shrecks or zooks. Americans and Germans were the one with that kind of weapon. And of course the Americans had the bazooka in North Africa-the Germans later developed their rocket. Of course the Italians maybe had some 'sticky grenade' magnetic grenade . Still looking. But I haven't seen anything with a dedicated doctrinal AT roll in combat. But if you have anything to counter that let me know-I'm pulling hair out trying to find info. I believe their is a lot out there-just not on the 'net'

 

Now in the Christmas Bone in FI they talk about later roles for Italians with all kinds of weapons (below). But in the early 1940's ....they are not there yet. Still looking.

An Italian Forces Pack that adds a ton of Post-Armistice Italian forces to the Allies and Axis sides. Italian partisans, captured Italian equipment in use by Germans, actual Italian military forces operating under Allied and Axis sides, the works. This would be a pretty big Pack that will completely revolve around the Italians. I'm personally super excited for this pack, it will be a lot of fun to make and play.

 

hehe-written by another Italio-phile hehehe. Bless him.B)

_____________________________________

True warrior, artist, engineer... so much

ENGLISH wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Caccia_Dominioni

ITALIAN wiki

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Caccia_Dominioni

ART

http://digilander.libero.it/trombealvento/caccia/cacciad.htm

 

Decorated by Rommel-he went back after the war to take care of fallen soldiers and designed a memorial.

 

 

 

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Yeah I need someone to test the tags. No transparency issues. The screenshot of the desktop shows the transparent areas in black. In game no problem.The icons aren't transparent-I made the lines a little thicker since the last screen shoot. But it is a BETA. No crashes on my machine. Fog of War looks good to.

I only have the RED ICONS done. File weights in at 3.5 Megs. I'll upload it to my GOOGLE files later and PM you the url when ready tonight. Can you open 7Zip? 

Need a break now.

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Sent you a PM. I haven't fixed the FOW icons-they need to match exactly the black ones. Haven't fiddled with them yet. They work they just are slightly different.

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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I found out about GREENFISH ICON utility in a forum string here. If anyone is interested it's here. Freeware

http://greenfishsoftware.blogspot.hu/2012/07/greenfish-icon-editor-pro.html

YouTube instructions-though I just learned playing with it. Have fun! (That's the point-right? :))

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=greenfish+icon+editor

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We getting close to posting a BETA for people to comment/ critique on and put in their Z Folder to use. Download link we be posted here in MODS. Final product at GreenJades site.

CMFDR and myself had quite a lot of background exchanges on this. And amidali helped with the translations.

This isn't a Juju  Mod-But from at least my own travels on the INTERNETS this is the ONLY Royal Italian Army Icon/map symbols/tactical signs I have seen anywhere in any paper board game or computer game. I could be wrong-but I didn't see any. And believe me-I LOOKED!

Nearly Everyone either fudges it with NATO/Wehrmacht or small pictures. Not CMFDR/Tempestzzzz. So this is a first. The real deal-Royal Italian Army Tactical Map Symbols!

And we're pretty proud of that.

It may be a little jarring for the eye when you see it first on your screen because all of us have been raised on NATO and Wehrmacht Tactical Signs. You may go back to that-but at least your horizons were broadened. Right?

I should add we have quite a few historical resources to draw on-but every icon used  won't be present since there are some units Not in the Italian Army depicted in FI/Gustav Line (i.e. SNIPERS and ANTITANK infantry units (like Bazooka and Panzershreck). Certainly no Heavy or Medium Tanks.

Bit of a sample for Tankettes for Red Forces. Yeah Blue Forces and Fog of War will have their own icons. You'll just have to wait and see..:lol:

beta_zpslzuh0bh5.png

One request I have for Battlefront.Com and I hope it's passed on by the Moderator to the Battlefront Powers that Be - Can we have French Military Icons slots said aside for Free French Units depicted in any future Combat Mission modules??? CMFDR and myself well on are way researching that area now and would like to do a mod for that-if French slots are available. We have -uniforms, vehicles, firearms and color schemes depicted for specific countries- Could we please add more foreign country slots to?

Please.

The US, Germans, British and Russians have their own period WWII slots. Okay 'nuff said there.

Yeah CMFDR did a lot of investigating here -but sadly- one EXAMPLE OF ONE MILITARY ICON THAT WILL NOT APPEAR in  CM FI/GL

Italian Army Mules :lol: Google translation - The in-line with mules . My interpretation 'Mules in Formation'.

mules_zpshukjhseq.jpg

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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