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[REF] Italian period tactical symbols

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Hi there,

 

while sorting my files, I stumbled across that document which may be of interest for tactical signs' modders around here as it details Italian symbology.

eddee35e83a7a94faa5ef98d500d1b80.png

 

I don't remember where it came from originally so I'm not sur who to give credit to, anyway big thanks to the original uploader.

http://superdupontzeserveur.fr/cm/Manuale-Segni-Convenzionali.pdf (1.7 Mb)

Hope it helps.

 

Edited by CMFDR

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Oh MAN! A MILLION thanks    :)  -I was looking for reference just like that this week! All I could find was modern NATO and WWII American and German symbols. Downloaded and archived!

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:lol:

 This was good fun.

 I got as close as I could with these 3 icons for INFANTRY, RECON ('portion of infantry' in Italian in the manual-nothing that freely translates to RECON) and MORTAR (Brixia in screen shot)

I'm using a Blue Icon set for the Axis from someone-but modified the Italians as red. HQ's is a shared icon for Germans and Italians so it will always be blue-looks white in the screenshot but really is an eggshell blue.

Using Greenfish Icon Editor Pro to make the translucent icons-one looks faded in the screen shot-but really is quite vibrant and distinct. (FRAPS really muddys out the icon.) Select the icons and it's yellow background per the original icon set.

2_zpsgy2kmwcd.jpg

1_zpsgy1mat2e.jpg

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Looks good Tempestzzzz!

 

As for the recon, while the "Patrol" fits nicely, what about that one (similar to the Intelligence and Reconnaissance (I&R) platoon if I'm not mistaking )?

7b5ee192b1ee8c9ef10619fc618dc7df.png

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Thanks! Really very pre-BETA right now.  Will fix per your suggestion. I tried the GOOGLE translator-my own Italian is restricted to buying a train ticket or a meal-Good Morning-Goodbye-Taxi!. So I will go with what you have for recon. The symbol I had was pezzo per fanteria  which translates to 'piece/ portion of infantry'. The Tankette and Mortar icons were easy to find and came out great. I'll try to whip a desktop shot on the icons themselves once its complete-hopefully in a week. FRAPS doesn't handle translucent graphics very well-even on pause. Depending how it turns it I will release it as a mod. But the translucent icons won't be red but egg shell blue like the German Icons.

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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My bad, I was looking at the "pattuglia" one.

Have you noticed the flamethrower one (lanciafiamme)? ;)

Italian is quite close to French so it helps.

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I looked for flamethrower-I don't recall one in the game now. But the next module should have one-so it's best to look to include it. In the mean time I did the RECON change you suggested. Inserted in the screenshots are pictures of the actual icons-since. As I have said  FRAPs doesn't work well 'screenshotting' translucent. If I do say so myself-the tanks looks pretty darn close to the hand drawn ones in the manual you uploaded. :)

 

3_zpsgseomp8e.jpg

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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GREAT!  Best to download the manual in CMFDR first post to compare the CM OFFICIAL Icon name(listed below) to what is in the manual.

If you can compare the names to the manual that would be great.

There are a lot of shared icons with Germans and Italians. What is listed below under the double line are the icon names that units have their own specific icon. Unlike Headquarters, Fog-of-War, Sniper or FORTRESS icons which both Germans and Italians units share and can't be modded for a specific country.

____________________________________

_____________________________________

light_truck_heavy_weapon

light_truck_antitank

light_machinegun

infantry_gun

machinegun

light_machinegun

self propelled gun

red tank destroyer

truck

ammo_bearer

antitank

armored_car

anti tankgun

engineer

flak

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Looks good Tempestzzzz, you are nailing it.

Do you plan to work on a "geometric" version too?

Like Bil made for FB I mean :

Icons-01.PNG

ICON-KEY.png

http://battledrill.blogspot.be/2016/04/combat-mission-final-blitzkrieg-mods.html

A matter of taste probably but I think it helps for quick recognition, especially on crowded area.

 

@amidali any idea where the document could come from originally?

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Depends how the first one turns out-but yes I can do that. Right now if I can get the right translation mated up with an icon we are good to go. So - Yes if I can get the translucent ones done that I am working on now.  I can get the geometric ones done to-will take a little more work since you don't want a hand drawn quality.

I'm pretty new with Greenfish Icon Editor Pro -but every time I use it I have learned something. Lets say we are the STEAM Early Access stage rather then BETA HAHAHAHAHA. The tank icons may look rough exploded (i.e. 'hand drawn' like the actual symbols)-but in game they are smooth-but I want the lines a little fatter on the tanks. Accomplished a lot in 24 hrs. First couple are experiments-once it's down then it's just cookie cutting or making sausages. Fog of War and Defensive Icons you can't change since Germans and Italians share those icons. In your chart only INFANTRY and SUPPORT and VEHICLES need to be changed in ANY ICON set.

Got the colors I want.4_zpsfooezl6d.jpg

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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I would push your mod to Greenlight for sure! ;)

You probably know that already though but if it can be of any help, here a list of all FI/GL's floating icons alphabetically sorted to find which is where easily.

http://superdupontzeserveur.fr/cm/Fortress_Italy_FloatingIcons.txt

He, all pretty new that you are, it seems to looks good ingame already.

 

KUTGW!

 

Edit :

Amidali, if you too are wondering...

5b1d2c0f87230116fd685aa091e99840.png

 

They doesn't seems to be used ingame though, for now. (AS.42 looks to be using the Armored Car icon).

Edited by CMFDR

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Yes those icons aren't used yet-but who knows with the next module. We know BATTLEFRONT is working on that now. I'll have an Italian 'icon' Dealership scenario worked up to see what icons are missing.

I am hoping to have a BETA to test out by May 3rd-since I'll be gone from home about a week with only access with an iPad.

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Okay I did one Geometric  Icon-just for test-glad I did since was able to work with layers with some competence. There may be an issue with color. The side by side images  shows the 2 colors differences when  flashing. There is a difference albeit a subtle difference. We'll address that later. For now I'll work on the HAND-DRAWN ICONS and then after that do the GEOMETRIC ICONS.

The icon in the screenshot is for the RECON unit. On the right below is the translucent HAND-DRAWN ICONS (for MORTARS). This GEOMETRIC icon was easy-a mod of Bills (Note to self-ask Bill if I can use his modded icons for Italian forces)

Some may not be so easy to mod-some interpretation like for the TANKETTES-since the Germans and the US didn't have TANKETTES but only LIGHT TANKS. But there is a dedicated ICON for that.

4_zpsxoah22oo.jpg

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Nice work Tempestzzzz, and it's great to see it grow. (you know, when you'll be famous, I'll say, looking at the horizon, "I was there") ;)

As for the Italian dealership, Sequoia made one few years ago and it recently have been trtransferred onto CMModsIII: http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=3689

 

Edit : may fit well along yours :

CMFI Floating Icons Mod, By Theejl

CMFI_floating_icon_mod.zip_original1.jpg

http://cmmodsiii.greenasjade.net/?p=1625

Edited by CMFDR

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17 hours ago, Tempestzzzz said:

Depends how the first one turns out-but yes I can do that. Right now if I can get the right translation mated up with an icon we are good to go. So - Yes if I can get the translucent ones done that I am working on now.  I can get the geometric ones done to-will take a little more work since you don't want a hand drawn quality.

I'm pretty new with Greenfish Icon Editor Pro -but every time I use it I have learned something. Lets say we are the STEAM Early Access stage rather then BETA HAHAHAHAHA. The tank icons may look rough exploded (i.e. 'hand drawn' like the actual symbols)-but in game they are smooth-but I want the lines a little fatter on the tanks. Accomplished a lot in 24 hrs. First couple are experiments-once it's down then it's just cookie cutting or making sausages. Fog of War and Defensive Icons you can't change since Germans and Italians share those icons. In your chart only INFANTRY and SUPPORT and VEHICLES need to be changed in ANY ICON set.

Got the colors I want.4_zpsfooezl6d.jpg

These are looking good.  I could never find a document with the Italian tactical symbols when I looked.  This is really cool!

BTW I like your icon style.

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The original manual is from 1935, so a few symbols are missing (NO Self-propelled guns or Tank destroyers in 1935).

 

1) The missing symbols are:

-light tank (Carro armato leggero: Ansaldo L 6/40 OR Renault R 35)
-light_truck_antitank (Autocannone)
-light_truck_heavy_weapon (Camionetta Sahariana)
-self propelled gun (Cannone semovente)
-tank destroyer (Caccia carro)

 

2) This is the list of the other symbols.

-ENGLISH (ITALIAN TRANSLATION --- SYMBOL NAME):

-ammo_bearer (Porta munizioni --- Scaglione munizioni)
-anti-tank gun (Cannone anticarro: http://www.comandosupremo.com/symbols.html/5)
-armored_car (Autoblindo --- Autoblindomitragliatrice)
-engineer (Genio --- Plotone o sezione)
-flak (Cannone antiaereo --- Cannone c.a.)
-flamethrower (Lanciafiamme --- Lanciafiamme)
-infantry_gun (Cannone per fanteria (65/17 o 47/32): http://www.comandosupremo.com/symbols.html/3)
-light_machinegun (Fucile mitragliatore: http://www.comandosupremo.com/symbols.html/3)
-machinegun (Mitragliatrice: http://www.comandosupremo.com/symbols.html/2)
-tankette (Carro L3 --- Carro d'assalto OR Carro veloce)
-truck (Autocarro --- Autocarreggio OR Autosezione)

Hope this helps

Edited by amidali

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Thanks IanL-Yeah it's a toughy -all I found was what I had downloaded here from a Commando Supremo Forum. I tried Board Game sites, Model sites, military.... I'm sure there is info. Just not posted online... or we haven't found it yet.

Thanks-CMFDR-We have that-symbols from the manual you provided. Because they posted the manual we have in their forum from circa 1935.

And many Thanks Amidali-What you posetd is a big help. But you know who else isn't listed AMMO BEARERS. There in the game-but not in the manual-unless the Italian Army didn't have dedicated Ammo Bearers. And your right-no self-propelled guns or Tank Destroyers. Right now we are trying to fit a 1943 Army into a 1935 manual. But I will have something for you to see.

Not given up yet. :)

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Pretty neat project.  I would say the early iterations with the red in the dark backgrounds is very hard to read, but overall I applaud the effort and I do like the more recent color scheme.  I am a fan of using period symbology, and this Italian set is unique, so bravo!

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9 hours ago, Tempestzzzz said:

(...)And many Thanks Amidali-What you posetd is a big help. But you know who else isn't listed AMMO BEARERS. There in the game-but not in the manual-unless the Italian Army didn't have dedicated Ammo Bearers.

(...)And your right-no self-propelled guns or Tank Destroyers. Right now we are trying to fit a 1943 Army into a 1935 manual. But I will have something for you to see.(...)

As for the ammo bearer, Amidali mentionned that they are called "Porta munizioni --- Scaglione munizioni" and on page 49 of the pdf manual, we've got these signs : 

d136bc83fadec81c95f6a4019b3a9c8f.png

It seems that the common feature is the 3 dots signs so what just that?

 

As for the missing signs, let's ask on Supremo Commando, someone may know.


Edit:

 

Just found that on CS :

Italian%20Symbols.jpg

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/topic/6078-military-symbols-redux/

 

And that one, which are function symbol at platoon level the original poster, Jeff Leser, says :

9cba79ae26ac72cf1d6f6944c594627d.png

http://www.comandosupremo.com/forums/topic/6902-breda-30-exercises/page__view__findpost__p__103552

 

Another source : http://www.regioesercito.it/regioesercito/redoc/manumil8.htm

Edited by CMFDR

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10 hours ago, Tempestzzzz said:

But you know who else isn't listed AMMO BEARERS. There in the game-but not in the manual-unless the Italian Army didn't have dedicated Ammo Bearers.

I see @CMFDR found something.  I have also used a supply unit symbol for ammo bearers.

As for light trucks - you can use a smaller version of the truck symbol.  Sometimes you just have to make something up :D

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Geez so much to digest CMDFR :)-I'll dummy up some kind of sketch for a screen capture on what we got here. Bill is right about the red (Thanks for the comments Ed.). Last night I lost an hour of my life looking for  a MEDIUM TRUCK IanL.

GEOMETRIC ICONS will be the what we will go with first.

I find quite a bit on Italian Army WWII camouflage, rank, insignias and uniforms-but tactical symbols for maps is rare as hens teeth. I wake up this morning look at our combined forum string here with a manual download to download-that started this string and various screen captures and  it's safe to say this one BATTELEFRONT FI MOD string has more Italian tactical emblems then anywhere else in one location on the net. PDF this forum string HAHAHA

As an aside I went to LOAN SENTRY to first thing. Nothing there. In the interim what this link has here is free and legal to download (download options on the bottom right). Off to work. Period stuff-old school classic stuff. Battle Drill kinda of stuff.

https://archive.org/details/FM21-30

https://archive.org/details/TME30-420

I'll register at Supremo Commando tonight and ask.

Gotta catch a bus now.

Edited by Tempestzzzz

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Enjoy the ride and have a nice day Tempest.

Please note that  6078-military-symbols-redux pic have what is said to be 1942 symbols with Sahariana, Semovente and maybe more. I *guess* that Carri M could fit the bill for R-35 for example.

Anyway, looking forward to your icons, whatever you choose.

 

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On 4/18/2016 at 9:10 PM, Tempestzzzz said:

The icon in the screenshot is for the RECON unit. On the right below is the translucent HAND-DRAWN ICONS (for MORTARS). This GEOMETRIC icon was easy-a mod of Bills (Note to self-ask Bill if I can use his modded icons for Italian forces)

I missed this with my first read through... yes, feel free to use whatever you can steal/borrow from my work. ;) 

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