Is it possible to throw grenades into buildings without being in contact with the wall?

[Bulletpoint]

Well, as the topic says.. sometimes I have an assault team 1 square away from an enemy held building, and I would like to throw in a couple of pineapples through the windows, but I can't seem to make it work. Doing area fire on the building seems to only make them fire their weapons. Is it possible to do this in the game, and if so, how ?

[Bulletpoint]

Maybe I should clarify that there is one empty square between the team and the building.

[RockinHarry]

From my experience, area fire grenading directly into a house only works if you´re directly at the house, no more than 1 AS away. Alternatively you could area fire the AS directly in front of the house (available LOS/LOF assumed), as long it´s within 30m range, grenades will be used along with small arms. Some grenades will explode very close to the house, usually at ground level, but effects on anybody in the house could range from suppression to taking casualties. Another nice method (rarely available) is to target area fire (grey targeting line) across a high wall at an AS directly adjacent to an occupied house. In this case, only hand grenades will be used and the targeting unit is fairly safe from return fire, if it´s directly positioned at/behind the friendly side of the high wall.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

From my experience, area fire grenading directly into a house only works if you´re directly at the house, no more than 1 AS away. 

Hm yes, such a pity really. I think this is one of the important use of hand grenades in urban fighting - having a means of clearing out an enemy held house without running across the street and peeping through the windows.

[Andrew H.]

I've had some luck with having Granatgewehr teams area fire on an occupied building. 

I'm still kind of figuring out how to use them...

[A Canadian Cat]

I have to wonder about this. Is it SOP for troops to throw grenades from any distance at a building? It would seem to me that the risk of missing the window and having it bounce back would not be something to trifle with.

[Wodin]

This is where units having a set of  SOP's that the player can turn on or off would come in handy..give the tac ai a helping hand to..plus could also help the enemy AI to react aswell if SOP's could be set by the scenariio designer.

[Pete Wenman]

I agree with IanL - all the FIBUA grenade training and stands I went though emphasised how difficult it is to throw grenades into buildings, with it being almost impossible if the target building had been prepared for defence/fortified.

A grenade command is something I would be happy to see, but I would also want to see a lot of grenades not going exactly where I wanted them. Players are far more cavalier with explodey things in game than the average squaddie.

P

[Buzz]

A grenade command would be a cool new feature but I agree with Pete & Ian... throwing a bomb that is designed to kill over X distance and having it miss the window... bounce back .... should have a serious down side for the guys who miss the window. It would in RL. 

Buzz

[Bulletpoint]

About grenades bouncing back, yes, it would be dangerous if you're exposed in the street, but the idea is to throw your grenade from cover, so that if it does bounce back, you're behind something.

A street corner, behind a low wall, behind bocage, or simply in another building across the street.

CM squares are only 8 metres across. Surely it would be possible to throw a grenade through a medium sized window at that distance?

I think we can disregard fortified buildings, as they are currently not in the game.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[fivefivesix]

I recently attending a force-on-force military simulation event, and had the opportunity to use simulation grenade pyrotechnics. While I had used them in previous events, this was the first time using them in a MOUT type environment, and it quickly became evident how difficult it was to lob them into buildings. The number of times I watched guys try to pitch them up into a second story window, only to have it bounce down the outer wall - I would not be surprised if it were strictly against military SOPs to try such a stunt with live munitions. Even getting them into a first floor window from any distance is a challenge. They can't quite be thrown like a baseball, they are not perfectly balanced, and accuracy really lacks when you can't get your hand "on top" of the object being thrown. Also, there really is no good way to throw a grenade from within a structure. You need clear overhead space for the arcing trajectory, which means exposing yourself to occupants of said building - probably more of a risk than is worth taking, given the low chance of actually getting the grenade into the building. 

That being said - when you have a position on the outer wall of a building (within the neighboring action square in game), pitching grenades through ground-floor windows is easy and brutally effective for clearing them out. So, anecdotally, it makes sense to me how it is currently represented in game. It also highlights the importance of organic HE such as rifle grenades and bazookas, which can much more effectively be aimed at specific weak points, such as a window. 

[Bulletpoint]

35 minutes ago, fivefivesix said:

I recently attending a force-on-force military simulation event, and had the opportunity to use simulation grenade pyrotechnics. While I had used them in previous events, this was the first time using them in a MOUT type environment, and it quickly became evident how difficult it was to lob them into buildings. The number of times I watched guys try to pitch them up into a second story window, only to have it bounce down the outer wall - I would not be surprised if it were strictly against military SOPs to try such a stunt with live munitions. Even getting them into a first floor window from any distance is a challenge. They can't quite be thrown like a baseball, they are not perfectly balanced, and accuracy really lacks when you can't get your hand "on top" of the object being thrown. Also, there really is no good way to throw a grenade from within a structure. You need clear overhead space for the arcing trajectory, which means exposing yourself to occupants of said building - probably more of a risk than is worth taking, given the low chance of actually getting the grenade into the building. 

That being said - when you have a position on the outer wall of a building (within the neighboring action square in game), pitching grenades through ground-floor windows is easy and brutally effective for clearing them out. So, anecdotally, it makes sense to me how it is currently represented in game. It also highlights the importance of organic HE such as rifle grenades and bazookas, which can much more effectively be aimed at specific weak points, such as a window. 

Thanks for this post - nothing like real life experience to clear things up. I realise I was wrong about my idea about throwing grenades from across the street.

However, I still find the game pretty lacking in ways to realistically use grenades to clear out buildings like you describe. Because in the game, there's no way of sending troops up against a suppressed building and staying out of sight while lobbing grenades inside.

[fivefivesix]

Just to clarify, my experiences are purely from a recreational hobby that attempts to simulate (with varying levels of accuracy / success) military tactics. Someone with true hands on experience of the real deal will have a much deeper insight than I ever could. 

I agree, the game has some difficulty simulating combat within the type of environments you are describing. I know it has been brought up many times before, and it is something I would love to see improved. MOUT simulation in general is difficult because of the layers upon layers of variability that go in to any particular situation. There are hundreds of pages of manuals that dictate SOPs for real-life operations. 

I think what you are describing is the best work-around for what is available in game - heavy suppression of the building, then send assault team right up the front door, pause x 15-20 seconds while area-firing into building with assault team (to get grenades in), then quick move into building. It isn't perfect, and you still have to expect to take casualties (as you would IRL even with perfect execution). 

If you can, the best way into a building is by breaching a wall with no windows or doors - OPFOR can't spot you, and the breach will kill / incapacitate / suppress anybody inside as you move in. 

[Michael Emrys]

3 minutes ago, fivefivesix said:

If you can, the best way into a building is by breaching a wall with no windows or doors - OPFOR can't spot you, and the breach will kill / incapacitate / suppress anybody inside as you move in. 

This. +1

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

9 hours ago, fivefivesix said:

 

I think what you are describing is the best work-around for what is available in game - heavy suppression of the building, then send assault team right up the front door, pause x 15-20 seconds while area-firing into building with assault team (to get grenades in), then quick move into building. It isn't perfect, and you still have to expect to take casualties (as you would IRL even with perfect execution). 

The problem is you can't really do this well in the game, as your covering suppressive fire will suppress your assault team as well. And it's very likely that one of the enemy in the building will "wake up" from suppression and kill your guys standing in full view in front of the windows, instead of staying out of view next to the windows.

So, for gameplay reasons at least, I would like to see troops being able to throw grenades from across the street - if nothing else to simulate a proper assault, like we see with troops chucking grenades at tanks to represent close assaulting them.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[fivefivesix]

6 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

The problem is you can't really do this well in the game, as your covering suppressive fire will suppress your assault team as well.

I have had reasonable success with the following: suppress building with heavy area fire from any available overwatching teams. If you actually need the structure to be standing (for future observation or base of fire points, etc), use light area fire from available AFVs. Otherwise, let the infantry teams send their HE at it. Do this for at least full 60 second turn (I play WEGO, this could be even further refined and the timing could be even better in real time). Then, for the following turn, change all area fire to "target light". Put a 10-15 second pause on assaulting team, then send them into the ground floor.  OR, use a brief target for 15 seconds into the turn, with the assaulters going in with a 15-20 second pause, depending on how far they have to travel to get there. 

This should prevent your teams from being pinned / suppressed by friendly fire before assaulting. Any OPFOR that put up a fight inside the building are either fanatically motivated or have elite balls of steel, in which case you are probably better off just leveling the building and moving on. 

[Bulletpoint]

18 minutes ago, fivefivesix said:

I have had reasonable success with the following: suppress building with heavy area fire from any available overwatching teams. If you actually need the structure to be standing (for future observation or base of fire points, etc), use light area fire from available AFVs. Otherwise, let the infantry teams send their HE at it. Do this for at least full 60 second turn (I play WEGO, this could be even further refined and the timing could be even better in real time). Then, for the following turn, change all area fire to "target light". Put a 10-15 second pause on assaulting team, then send them into the ground floor.  OR, use a brief target for 15 seconds into the turn, with the assaulters going in with a 15-20 second pause, depending on how far they have to travel to get there. 

This should prevent your teams from being pinned / suppressed by friendly fire before assaulting. Any OPFOR that put up a fight inside the building are either fanatically motivated or have elite balls of steel, in which case you are probably better off just leveling the building and moving on. 

I agree that procedure would be highly effective, but if I had AFV support with LOS to the building, I would never try assaulting

[iluvmy88]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:54 AM, IanL said:

I have to wonder about this. Is it SOP for troops to throw grenades from any distance at a building? It would seem to me that the risk of missing the window and having it bounce back would not be something to trifle with.

As long as you have decent cover it isnt a big deal, a cinderblock wall will suffice as long as it doesnt roll directly to the bottom of the wall and even then the blast will mostlikly just push away from the wall and the shrapnel wont penetrate.. 

[iluvmy88]

21 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

About grenades bouncing back, yes, it would be dangerous if you're exposed in the street, but the idea is to throw your grenade from cover, so that if it does bounce back, you're behind something.

A street corner, behind a low wall, behind bocage, or simply in another building across the street.

CM squares are only 8 metres across. Surely it would be possible to throw a grenade through a medium sized window at that distance?

I think we can disregard fortified buildings, as they are currently not in the game.

Depending on who is throwing ive seen some sail a good 30-40m but you also have "chicken wings" that cant throw 10m. not everyone can but it is possible. people who played basball like myself often have trouble throwing like the army wants you to. across a street for a veteran troop would be relatively easy but at the 30m range its possible but it just depends on who is throwing.

Edited April 14, 2016 by iluvmy88

[MikeyD]

I once joked that the US had an advantage in WWII because our national sport was baseball. Every American kid grew up wanted to be a professional baseball pitcher. Now every American kid grows up playing console games and our grenade throwing skill may be suffering as a result.   

[mjkerner]

True Mikey D, but they will have awesome drone control skills!

[iluvmy88]

13 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

I once joked that the US had an advantage in WWII because our national sport was baseball. Every American kid grew up wanted to be a professional baseball pitcher. Now every American kid grows up playing console games and our grenade throwing skill may be suffering as a result.   

usually it was the guys who played baseball that couldnt throw a grenade, it was more because they want you to throw it a certain way. i had the same problem and pitched baseball through highschool but com time to throw that ball of explosives that sucker sailed to at least 30m lol. something about a ball of bang makes you throw really well.

[Bulletpoint]

42 minutes ago, mjkerner said:

True Mikey D, but they will have awesome drone control skills!

That made me laugh, it's funny cause it's true (and kind of horrible) 

In any case, maybe being great at baseball wouldn't necessarily help you throw a grenade through a window, since in baseball, you want to throw a powerful ball, which is a different skill than putting a grenade through a window at 8 metres range?

[Michael Emrys]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

In any case, maybe being great at baseball wouldn't necessarily help you throw a grenade through a window, since in baseball, you want to throw a powerful ball, which is a different skill than putting a grenade through a window at 8 metres range?

But in baseball a pitcher also needs control, to put the ball in a very tight space. I don't think that is the problem based on what experienced grenadiers have posted here. Part of the problem is that the manufacture of the grenade makes it fly differently from a baseball. The psychological factor that you could get killed while engaged in grenade tossing might carry some weight here too.

Michael

[iluvmy88]

1 hour ago, Michael Emrys said:

 The psychological factor that you could get killed while engaged in grenade tossing might carry some weight here too.

Michael

Pretty much thats why they want you to throw it differently, inexperienced ppl will have a chance of loosing control and dropping the nade on the "windup" thus leaving a nice surprise right next to you. also chance of them letting loose too late hitting the wall in front ext. i cant even explain how they tried to get me to throw it but i just went with old faithful and nobody said boo cause that sucked flew and i sure as hell wanted to make sure it did lol.