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Small arms casualties - tank crews


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I'm playing the demo and loving it. Really great work.

Just one minor observation so far. I seem to be suffering much higher tank crew losses to small arms fire when buttoned up than I'm used to. Has this been adjusted and, if so, how realistic is it?

My Stug crews in the third scenario offered suffered a number of such casualties, not only commanders but gunners too. One Stug lost two crewmen in this fashion; with two crewmen remaining, it was able to move but not fire...

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This has happened a lot to me, too.  

I think what's happening is that the loader is popping up to use his MG (even when buttoned).  And then after he is killed, another crewman does the same.  And he will also be killed.

I've attached two saved games - note that I just started from a save and drove a StuG near enemy infantry because I was pretty sure they crew would be shot up, which happened.  

Here's a link to a saved game: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7259929/Battle%20for%20Chaumont%20-%20Second%20Round%20004.bts

 

Note that the StuG began buttoned, the loader unbuttoned, was killed, closed the loader hatch...then another crewman opened it and was also killed.

 

Here's another one - the StuG was unbuttoned when I started moving it, although by the beginning of this turn, the loader had unbuttoned: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/7259929/Battle%20for%20Chaumont%20-%20Second%20Round%20002.bts

 

This also seemed to happen with the Jagd IVs, although I didn't run new saves on them.

 

The action is near Chaumont center.

 

I'm on a Mac, if that matters.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Redmarkus said:

I'm playing the demo and loving it. Really great work.

Just one minor observation so far. I seem to be suffering much higher tank crew losses to small arms fire when buttoned up than I'm used to. Has this been adjusted and, if so, how realistic is it?

My Stug crews in the third scenario offered suffered a number of such casualties, not only commanders but gunners too. One Stug lost two crewmen in this fashion; with two crewmen remaining, it was able to move but not fire...

Are you sure it's not a.50 gunner (half-track)pecking away at you somewhere, that could gun could cause some problems!

Edited by user1000
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Played the mission in question today too, seems to be an issue on PC as well. Buttoned stug crew will man the outer MG regardless of buttoning orders. It's not such a big deal when enemies are to the front and far away since the gun shield is so large, but if an allied rifleman gets behind the vehicle it can turn into a dead crew member very quickly. I guess its a design flaw with the vehicle that in order to use the machine gun a crew member needs to leave the protection an AFV should afford him.

Maybe the AI could be tweaked so that the machine gunner was more conservative with exposing himself, or only used the weapon when unbutton orders are given (like a halftrack, or the 50 on a sherman) 

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I'm lost but what about the tanker shoot and dunk back in turret with mp40 or pistol if enemy troops are at the sides? Or a tank crew able to toss grenades out hatch. The panthers and tigers had small HE/smoke mortars that they could fire if troops were too close.

Edited by user1000
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Just tried the demo scenario. I find the stug behaviour frustrating too.  I lined up stugs 300m from the town and ordered them to button down. A little later instead of safely engaging solely with main gun, loaders pop up with mg and get greeted by a hail of bullets (and casulties). I quit the scenario.  

I  believe this suicide stug thing was introduced with 3.0. engine. Before that they obeyed button orders better. 

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12 hours ago, IanL said:

Yeah but guys we are not talking about stand off ranges you are talking about enemy infantry at the sides and rear. That's separate stuff. The crew are desperately trying to fend off the existential threat and survive the war.

Yeah, you do mean, NOT SURVIVE the War...Right.

And, why is it that many other Armored Units with top Mounted MG's don't Unbutton when Inf are at their sides...You know, After all, they should fear for their lives too, and NOT SURVIVE the War.

Edited by JoMc67
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I'm sorry - forgot about the save game requirement, but I see that others are having the same problem/challenge.

In my case, the Stugs were not in the town proper but about 100m from it. They were facing the enemy, as far as I could tell, unless there were hidden AI infantry on a flank.

The two main concerns, as cited above, are:

1. Stugs ignoring the button command. For close defence, let the player decide whether to unbutton or not.

2. Other crew members committing suicide after the machine gunner has already been killed with his head out of the hatch.

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I must say I find it frustrating to open the commander hatch to support advancing infantry with machine gun fire and within a matter of seconds “Blam” your guy gets smoked. This situation is common in these  games and in real life, and there is no doubt  being unbuttoned and exposing one’s self to small arms fire is a dangerous business.  I just feel it seems a little bit too much.  Open hatch…fire a burst or two.. get nailed.   I know the Germans were good, but consistently so…. This comment is somewhat more tongue in cheek than anything else but just once I would like to play” Audie Murphy” and live long enough to develop PTSD...I mean no offence…. because I suffer somewhat from PTSD….Am I the only guy who feels this way?

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I find that the Stug MG gunner is simply unbuttoning to fire when infantry targets of opportunity appear. And I wish they wouldn't do that, because it's often inappropriate for the threat situation. I wish BFC would make the Stug act like other vehicles, and stay buttoned up when ordered. 

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14 hours ago, IanL said:

Yeah but guys we are not talking about stand off ranges you are talking about enemy infantry at the sides and rear. That's separate stuff. The crew are desperately trying to fend off the existential threat and survive the war.

This is true...and I wouldn't have any objection if the behavior *occasionally* happened, or if it happened more often when the crew was rattled or panicking. 

But I don't think it should be the case that the loader *routinely* sticks his head out when enemy infantry are nearby.  And it's even less realistic for another crewman to immediately man the MG after the loader has been shot for doing the same thing, particularly in the face of a "button" order.  (If they were ordered to do so, it *might be* realistic...but these guys have been ordered not to do so).

 

And we never see similar behavior (AFAIK) by the commanders of buttoned tanks.  Even when they are surrounded by infantry, they never pop their heads up to man the AAMG in an attempt to drive off the infantry. 

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On 2/4/2016 at 4:24 PM, Redmarkus said:

I'm playing the demo and loving it. Really great work.

Just one minor observation so far. I seem to be suffering much higher tank crew losses to small arms fire when buttoned up than I'm used to. Has this been adjusted and, if so, how realistic is it?

My Stug crews in the third scenario offered suffered a number of such casualties, not only commanders but gunners too. One Stug lost two crewmen in this fashion; with two crewmen remaining, it was able to move but not fire...

 

Several other people have posted about the same problem on this forum. I can only recommend filing a bug report to BattleFront through their oficial channels (open a ticket at their helpdesk).

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