3rd Bttn, 117th Infantry Regt, L Company - December morning

[mbarbaric]

 I adore historical engagements and, before playing them, i love to read everything i can find about them. The second mission in demo is "December morning" depicting the engament of L Company from 117th Iregts 3rd Bttn on 23rd December 1944 in the German pocket remaining west of Stavelot and in an attempt to clear ground for an attack on La Gleize where 1st SS Division Adolf Hitler is situated. Despite finding everything about an attack of this regiment on Stavelot which ended on 22nd, Including delightful german war maps of the area and exact period, I wasn't able to find anything about the mission in this scenario.

Pete Wenman who designed the scenarion says the mission is based on details taken from the book "Duel in the mist" volume 2, however  I don't have the money to buy the book and despite searching through teh 30th division AAR's I wasn't able to find absolutely anything regarding 117th Infantry regiment after 22nd of December. Does anyone know what I am missing and where to look?

thanks a lot!!!

 

btw, to those more familiar with military lexic, what does  c-2 to S-3 means?

Edited April 2, 2016 by mbarbaric

[hank24]

3 hours ago, mbarbaric said:

btw, to those more familiar with military lexic, what does  c-2 to S-3 means?

To my knowledge, S3 ist the third staff officer of a battalion. When I remember correctly from my time at the German Bundeswehr, S1 is responsible personnel, S2 for info on the enemy, S3 for tactics and plans and deputy battalion commander, S4 for logistics. No info on c-2, though.

[Ultradave]

C2 (without the dash) usually stands for "Command and Control"  The staff functions are the same in the US Army.

 

[McAuliffe]

The Scenario is probably as historical as the snow on the ground.  Until 30th. of December there was no snow on the ground in the La Gleize area.  

 

[LUCASWILLEN05]

4 minutes ago, McAuliffe said:

The Scenario is probably as historical as the snow on the ground.  Until 30th. of December there was no snow on the ground in the La Gleize area.  

 

Are you saying NUTS :-) Sorry I couldn't resist given your user name! :-)

 

[mbarbaric]

1 hour ago, McAuliffe said:

The Scenario is probably as historical as the snow on the ground.  Until 30th. of December there was no snow on the ground in the La Gleize area.  

 

what i hav been able to find out (without actually reading teh "Duel in the mist") is the 23rd (when the scenario takes place) was merely artillery shelling La Gleize and that is about it. Division logs mention ¸rarely "L" company  but without any combat action. however there is mention of "Jordan" task force that operated on the day in area going from vaguely the same position as in scenario towards La gleize. 

 

Historically, US army went for La Gleize and managed to reach it on 23rd but they have taken it the next day after 1st ss division already retreated manging to avoid us forces. so in that regard it is historical, however i wasn't able to find any specific mention of fighting in the area on the day. regarding weather, division reports cold and overcast weather with low to fair visibility. no mention of snow indeed. at least as far as i recollect.

thanks to hank and ltradave for clearing up the S1,2,3 seems to be spot on. now, what would be G1,2,3 ???

[JasonC]

First on a source - Hugh Cole's bulge Green Book covers this under the section titled "one threat subsides, another emerges", the first half of which covers the liquidation of Peiper's pocket.  On the weather, the 30th division narrative is clear that on the 22nd the day was very cold, falling snow and heavy overcast, so there was snow on the ground and it would still be present on the 23rd.

117th Infantry on the 22nd is described as trying to reduced a German force on the nose of a ridge that held them off with mortars, werfers and small arms, until a fourth company from Stavelot got behind them. They spent the rest of the 22nd mopping that up.

On the 23rd, they fought for La Gleize, where what was left of Peipers armor was concentrated.  Much of the day was spent reorganizing infantry in the wooded terrain.  Attempts with armor met mines, ATGs, and dug in tanks and generally failed. US artillery was however incessantly pounding the Germans in the town, which drove the men into cellars - plenty if wounded (up to 300) and US POWs (200) were also in the town by then.  The US did not get in, but the pressure was enough that Peiper sought and was given permission to evac his men that night.  They left 28 tanks and 70 halftracks behind, along with their wounded and the US prisoners.

Edited April 3, 2016 by JasonC

[markus544]

Was the King Tiger out of gas or disabled...still was a semi-mobile pill box with the dreaded 88.  Made sure a 76 mm round made him dead tiger

[jtsjc1]

9 minutes ago, markus544 said:

Was the King Tiger out of gas or disabled...still was a semi-mobile pill box with the dreaded 88.  Made sure a 76 mm round made him dead tiger

I believe it was out of gas.

[Andrew H.]

8 minutes ago, markus544 said:

Was the King Tiger out of gas or disabled...still was a semi-mobile pill box with the dreaded 88.  Made sure a 76 mm round made him dead tiger

I think it's immobilized.

I'm on my third playthough of this scenario, and it's interesting how the scene with the Tiger plays out.  The first time, I got the drop on the Tiger with two tanks and eventually knocked him out.  However, it took 15 hits before that happened; the Tiger was able to get off three (I think) shots and knocked out one of my 76s.  The second time, I got cocky (or the commander wasn't dozing) - he spotted my tanks first (even though I knew he was there and was looking for him) and knocked out two, plus most of an infantry squad and a mortar team, before I could knock him out with the my third 76.  (It's pretty difficult to make it through the rest of the scenario with only two tanks...).

 

The third time, I was more cautious and more lucky and took out the Tiger with one shot.

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, mbarbaric said:

thanks to hank and ltradave for clearing up the S1,2,3 seems to be spot on. now, what would be G1,2,3 ???

Same things at a higher echelon.

Michael

[McAuliffe]

2 hours ago, JasonC said:

First on a source - Hugh Cole's bulge Green Book covers this under the section titled "one threat subsides, another emerges", the first half of which covers the liquidation of Peiper's pocket.  On the weather, the 30th division narrative is clear that on the 22nd the day was very cold, falling snow and heavy overcast, so there was snow on the ground and it would still be present on the 23rd.

117th Infantry on the 22nd is described as trying to reduced a German force on the nose of a ridge that held them off with mortars, werfers and small arms, until a fourth company from Stavelot got behind them. They spent the rest of the 22nd mopping that up.

On the 23rd, they fought for La Gleize, where what was left of Peipers armor was concentrated.  Much of the day was spent reorganizing infantry in the wooded terrain.  Attempts with armor met mines, ATGs, and dug in tanks and generally failed. US artillery was however incessantly pounding the Germans in the town, which drove the men into cellars - plenty if wounded (up to 300) and US POWs (200) were also in the town by then.  The US did not get in, but the pressure was enough that Peiper sought and was given permission to evac his men that night.  They left 28 tanks and 70 halftracks behind, along with their wounded and the US prisoners.

 

French text  in below link certifying no snow on the ground  signed by  some civilians and the priest of  La Gleize. There is also the famous Life magazine picture of GI s walking by a smoldering KT that has been taken on 24th. Again no snow.  Most vehicles were out of gas by 23rd. , although some barrels of fuel were recovered from a supply attempt  over the river Ambleve - they were sent downstream floating. The KT 's  were KO'd,because  hydraulics  and optics were damaged  by several impacts. 

la gleize.tif

Edited April 3, 2016 by McAuliffe

[MOS:96B2P]

4 hours ago, mbarbaric said:

<Snip>  now, what would be G1,2,3 ???

To add to what @Michael Emrys said: 

Brigade and Battalion are S1, S2, S3, S4 etc. 

Army, Corps & Division are G1, G2, G3 etc. 

And, at least In modern times, the national level equivalent J1, J2, J3, ect........  Not sure if they used the J designation back in WWII.  

[Champagne]

As I mentioned in a post some time ago, the daily ground snow conditions at various battlefield locations will be a challenge to correctly discern. My understanding is that there was not ground snow at all battle sites every day during the Final Blitzkrieg in the Ardennes Forest. 

I've read about this campaign for decades and I am yet not sure about this ground snow issue.

I sure hope others know more about this question than do I!

[Michael Emrys]

23 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

To add to what @Michael Emrys said: 

Brigade and Battalion are S1, S2, S3, S4 etc. 

Army, Corps & Division are G1, G2, G3 etc. 

And, at least In modern times, the national level equivalent J1, J2, J3, ect........  Not sure if they used the J designation back in WWII.  

And apparently the Navy uses N-1, N-2, etc.

Michael

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Michael Emrys said:

And apparently the Navy uses N-1, N-2, etc.

Michael

Interesting.  I didn't know that.  Always learning new information on the forum. 

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Interesting.  I didn't know that.  Always learning new information on the forum. 

My source was the Wikipedia. Take it for what it's worth. I hadn't encountered that usage before either.

Michael

[Combatintman]

Depends which Army - the Brits (at least until I left in 2010) don't use 'S' designators. At battlegroup level  the positions are named so the '3' is  the Operations Officer, the '2' is the Intelligence Officer. G designators = 'Ground', A designators = 'Air' and 'N' designators = Naval. The Brits used 'G' designators at Bde level until recently and probably still do. 'J' = Joint. Thus ...

G2 = The intelligence officer/branch of a ground/land component headquarters

A2 = The intelligence officer/branch of an air component headquarters

N2 = The intelligence officer/branch of a maritime component headquarters

J2 = The intelligence officer/branch of a joint force headquarters

 

[Wicky]

Digging through 'Weather effects on the BoB..." http://dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a121480.pdf

<quote>By the 22d, competing weather systems from Russia and the Atlantic had brought on a hodgepodge of snow, blizzards, fog, and rain. In the north, the Sixth Panzer Army was bogged down by rain and mud. In the south, the Fifth Panzer Army was hampered in its swing around Bastogne by fog and snow. Along the German supply roads beyond the Eifel, the snow fell continuously.'

23 to 27 December 1944. Figure 6 shows a high pressure area extending east-west across Northern Europe from England to Russia on 23 December. Cold continental polar air was flowing into the Ardennes and Eifel with the easterly winds that prevailed on the southern edge of the high. This high was composed of the merging of the strong Russian high and a maritime polar high that moved in from the Atlantic on 18 December. By the 23d the continental polar air had completely modified the air over the combat zone. A closed upper air low with its southerly trough deep into Europe, which was associated with the surface low near Spitzbergen, was now east of the Ardennes, causing decreasing cloudiness. The weather depicted by figure 7 shows only scattered clouds over the entire area.

The morning of 23 December broke clear and cold. "Visibility Unlimited" was what the air control posts happily reported all the way from the United Kingdom to tfie foxholes on the Ardennes front. ….  The dramatic change of the 23d, brought on by cold, dry winds from the east, stripped the German armies of their immunity to air attack, but this was not the whole story. Because of the winds, snow began to drift in the Eifel hills, bringing traffic on the main supply roads west of the Rhine almost to a standstill. The GeIrmans found that horsedrawn snowplows were few and ineffective, and hastily erected snow fences were torn down by troops scrounging for firewood. No gravel was available, and a large number of engineer construction battalions had been moved west for employment as infantry. By the time power snowplows reached the Eifel, the American fighter-bombers were strafing and bombing every large vehicle that moved.</quote> 

From what I've read the hilly upland parts i.e Eiffel etc had the worst of the snow - and even though La Gleize is only a few kilometers away from the high ground it is situated in a relatively low lying river valley.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Wicky

[Pete Wenman]

 

Seeing how this seems to have become a bit of an issue - just for clarification.

• The patchy snow is artist licence as the map looks a lot more attractive with it than just plain old dreary, muddy, muted green.
• The weather for the scenario was initially set as clear blue skies and the US had air support, however these were both pulled for balance/game play purpose (you nearly got mist at one stage).
• L Co 117th Inf Regt was part of Task Force McGeorge  that operated in the Roanne - Roanne Coo area over the period 18th - 22nd Dec, before moving from Roanne towards Trois Ponts.
• The battalion pioneer platoon (A&P Plt) in reality was truck mounted, but halftracks have been used for balance purposes and interest.
• C Co 743rd Tank was also part of TF McGeorge and supported 117th Inf Regt over the period, but whether they had Easy Eights and a 105mm working together is unlikely.
• The German forces in the area of Moulin Marechal were known as Sperrgruppe Muhle, being elements of 1./SS-Pz.Aufkl.Abt 1, but by the 23rd it is likely they had withdrawn from the mill to Ferme Werimont just off map to the west.
• As such the mission as depicted is fictitious.

No stop talking about the weather and lets read some AAR's

 

P

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Depends which Army - the Brits (at least until I left in 2010) don't use 'S' designators. At battlegroup level  the positions are named so the '3' is  the Operations Officer, the '2' is the Intelligence Officer. G designators = 'Ground', A designators = 'Air' and 'N' designators = Naval. The Brits used 'G' designators at Bde level until recently and probably still do. 'J' = Joint. Thus ...

G2 = The intelligence officer/branch of a ground/land component headquarters

A2 = The intelligence officer/branch of an air component headquarters

N2 = The intelligence officer/branch of a maritime component headquarters

J2 = The intelligence officer/branch of a joint force headquarters  

Thanks, more interesting information.  The Brit. way seems to make a little more sense in the bigger picture.  Not sure why we used the S (tradition?) since we always qualified it with the command level of the Intel. shop we were talking about. - 3rd Brigade S2 requests this, 1st Battalion S2 wants that etc...  

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Not sure why we used the S (tradition?...  

I always assumed that the S stood for Staff and G stood for General Staff. So that if the officer in question was commanded by a colonel or lower rank he Rated an S, but if he was commanded by a general he rated a G. This could of course all be tosh, but in my unenlightened state it was the best I could come up with and at least made some kind of sense.

Michael