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LancerOne

Possible reason to BM Oplot's Spotting Issues

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Hi there. I obviously don't say much on these forums, but I feel I just had to point this out to you guys in the hope this might mean something useful. I also apologize if this particular reason has been called out before and I missed it while searching.

I was replaying  "Dueling Shashkas" as UKR and wondered why the T-90s constantly kept on one-upping my tanks in the spotting game. I noticed something strange with almost all the Oplots under my command. Both the driver and the gunner were doing their job spotting targets, but the commanders were all trying to rotate their guns to point directly ahead, which is of course not possible because of that gigantic CITV in front of the commander hatch. 

So in effect the commanders are stuck perpetually trying to bash their guns against the thermal housing instead of spotting targets. in effect, you are down one crewman. At least, that's what the crew status at the bottom left strongly suggests. 

What do you think? Can you guys confirm this?

Thanks.

Edited by LancerOne

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If that is true that would explain why Oplot is so surprisingly bad at spotting enemy tanks even sub-1km away, which is of no issue to BMP2s in the same scenario.

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i never noticed that before. All three crew members are spotting before the first the first shot is fired but once the first round leaves the barrel (even MG fire) the commander is constant "rotating" mode. More testing and we may have a "Bug" report to file

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I realize that I actually have some low-quality video of this happening.

 

 

You can see the Oplot commander "Rotating" forever, even as they engage the T-90AM. Going back through the game, he appears to have been doing that for at least 10 minutes, although because it was a TCP/IP game I never noticed.

 

Also of note is the tank's use of Kombat ATGMs against the T-90AM at this range. I assume that's because the sabot round it has is soviet era garbage?

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I tried every AFV in the game and the Oplot is the only one this happens to. I set up a QB and timed one Oplot for 15 minutes with Rotating Commander before I went on to test Russian AFVs. 

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So, is it one that they are working on to fix.

 

39 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

This is a "known issue".

Lets face it, BF has plenty of issues in their game, that question is , which ones they feel they can fix and make the efforts to work on.

Of course, I would think this is one that should be easy to debug. well, compared to some that seem to get the best of them.

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Known issue? Damn and after all that work. To best serve the human race at large I will post some random spotting info I collected over the past two hours. I used a split test field with two tanks on each end with 800m distance between them. Here is a picture. The victims were set to never engage and no measurements were taken from them. All target tanks were always stationary. Difficulty selected was Elite and all tanks were Regular with Normal motivation and 0 (which is in the middle) leadership. For a control I tested M1 first. All times are posted MM:SS. The cutoff point I used was from the moment the tank could have spotted the enemy (typically the start of the game) to the moment the vehicle's 3d model appeared. I would considered a unit spotting when it looked like this. Sometimes contact icons would proceed the contact, sometimes not. Tanks would never fire on contact Icons however.

 

M1 Tyrannotitan targeting T-90A at 800m
Buttoned
Front Towards Enemy
0:56
0:14
0:14
0:14
0:14

average 22.4 seconds

When the enemy was in front of it the M1 was both the fastest on average and the most consistent.

Side Towards Enemy
5:13
7:18
3:30
2:33
5:27

Average  4 minutes 48 seconds

This result surprised me, as I had bought into the hearsay that sensors were so advanced the tank could be fought buttoned with minimal spotting ability lost. This appears not to be the case however, as time to acquire went up dramatically. A factor of 13 times in fact.

Unbuttoned
Front Towards Enemy
0:11
0:08
0:16
0:20

Average 11 seconds

The M1 appears to gain a mostly marginal advantage with the commander unbuttoned when spotting threats ahead it.

Side Towards Enemy
0:17
0:23
0:16
0:57
0:20

Average 26 seconds

This is an enormous improvement over the buttoned times, a factor of almost  22 times faster actually! 

BM Oplot

Oplot testing is where things start to get a little weirder. Note that due to the range, the commander never tried to use the MG and was never in rotating status.
Buttoned

Front Towards Enemy
0:31
0:01
0:19
1:12
0:39
0:19
0:33
0:32

Average time 31 seconds

Even with an extremely tactical one second spot, the Oplot still managed to be on average slower than M1. It was also very inconsistent having both the fastest and slowest times of those vehicles tested, causing me to run more tests than I did with M1 to try and achieve a true average. Still probably not enough of a sample size, but interesting.

Side Towards Enemy
0:24
3:01
8:11
0:08
14:15
0:10
0:24
0:60
3:44

Average time is 3 minutes and 48 seconds.

If the previous results were inconsistent, then these are out of control. I don't even really know what to say. It's fastest times are orders of magnitude quicker than M1, but it also has the single slowest spotting time I recorded at an appalling 14 minutes 15 seconds. But seriously an 8 second side spot of tank at 9 o'clock at 800m is really exceptional.

Unbuttoned

F4E976E1BBFE15077F7DCE55D91D5A69F89F86DF

(BTR-san's Ukrainian vehicle skins are so hot)
I did less of these tests since we were mostly concerned with sensor functionality but ran few just to give us more numbers to work with.
Front
0:20
0:20
0:14
0:21

Average 19 seconds.

Nice and fast. Not quite M1 fast, but fast. Also consistent, which is nice. I assume the slight bonus M1 has is the gunner is still using his sight since he hasn't turned out, as the commanders should be equal skill and equipped with binoculars.

Side
1:43
1:25
0:55
0:45

Average time is 1 minute and 12 seconds

I am driven to wonder what the difference is between the Oplot and the M1 in side spotting. Is the turret slowly rotating around and not visually represented, instead abstracted? As outlined previously, the commanders of these vehicles should be identical in ability. Unless the Ukrainian knights don't get binoculars or get cardboard ones or some such. Still faster than the buttoned times on average, but none of the recorded times were close to as fast as the very fastest buttoned times. Small sample size though.

By shooting infantry first and then driving out from behind an obstacle with the target tank at 9'clock I was able to initiate the perpertually rotating commander bug. I then measured spotting times at the same 800m range.

Rotary commander
Side 800m

16:05
1:05
11:32
3:45

Average time is truly monsterous about 8 minutes. Not sure what to make of this, results pretty much inline with the wild and out of control numbers we got without the commander rotating, but my sample sizes are small. (I was starting to question the value of this process)

Side
At 150m
1:18
0:35
2:24

Average about 1 minute 25 seconds.

This is pretty much guaranteed to be a fatal encounter for the Oplot. The enemy took 1 - 5 seconds to get a fix on it at this range, while it was quick to react as a glacier. 

I then re-did this test but without the commander rotating. 

With normal commander condition
At 150m
0:50
0:14
0:23

Average about 29 seconds. Still likely to get fried, but rolling out from behind cover with an enemy at 9 o'clock watching you is still a very tough spot. Possibly shows the effects of the rotation bug, but with this small sample size its hard to tell.

During the second half of this testing I had a spare T-90A not being used as a spotting target. I reversed the roles and let it try to spot the Oplot, while the Oplot was ordered not to engage. Mostly just a frame of reference.

T-90A targetting BM Oplot 800m

Buttoned
Front
0:49
0:50
0:45
0:45
0:28
0:15
1:15
0:10
0:24
0:34

Average times is 37.5 seconds. Half as fast as M1,  just a little slower than Oplot. Although those Oplot number are ridiculous, so I suppose any comparison is probably frivolous. 

Halfway through this testing I started recording the BM Oplots choice of shells to confirm a suspicion, and was soon proven correct. The Oplot seems to heavily favor the Kombat ATGM at this range, often firing two back to back to finish a target. At 150m range, the APFSDS and T-Heat warheads are used about equally. I am not sure what shell the BM Oplot is modeled using, but it sucks quite dramatically against the T-90A. Even at 150m it had at best a 50% change of doing heavy damage or destroying the vehicle.
Types of shells fired by oplots fun and learning chart
APFSDS:7
T-HEAT:6
ATGM:15

Thus concludes this episode of wasting time on video games.

Edited by danzig5

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16 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

This is a "known issue".

Is there a list of known issues available to the masses? Would be interesting to see, that way I won't waste hours trying to take an blind Oplot force up against a T-90AM force.

 

 

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14 hours ago, danzig5 said:

Known issue? Damn and after all that work. To best serve the human race at large I will post some random spotting info I collected over the past two hours. I used a split test field with two tanks on each end with 800m distance between them. Here is a picture. The victims were set to never engage and no measurements were taken from them. All target tanks were always stationary. Difficulty selected was Elite and all tanks were Regular with Normal motivation and 0 (which is in the middle) leadership. For a control I tested M1 first. All times are posted MM:SS. The cutoff point I used was from the moment the tank could have spotted the enemy (typically the start of the game) to the moment the vehicle's 3d model appeared. I would considered a unit spotting when it looked like this. Sometimes contact icons would proceed the contact, sometimes not. Tanks would never fire on contact Icons however.

Thanks a lot for these results. Abot ammunitions, BM Oplot in the game equipped with 3BM42 "Mango" APFSDS, which have not big chance to hit T-90A in frontal projection. And I don't know what exactly T-HEAT are modelled (in real its common non-tandem HEAT 3BK18/18М with 500/550 mm penetration under 0 deg.)

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I'm no tanker or Mil expert,  but even I know that's a pretty crappy penetration,  comparatively.  

Is UKR sourcing upgraded,  or new munitions? 

NATO could theoretically offer a lot of technical help to develop a more capable shell. 

Also,  if CMBS considers Ukraine part of NATO (story-wise) would it not make sense for Ukraine to gain an upgraded shell,  as part of the harmonization process?  

Edited by kinophile

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Just now, kinophile said:

I'm no tanker or Mil expert,  but even I know that's a pretty crappy penetration,  comparatively.  

Is UKR sourcing upgraded,  or new munitions? 

NATO could theoretically offer a lot of technical help to develop a more capable shell. 

Also,  if CMBS considers Ukraine part of a WA NATO (story-wise) would it not make sense for Ukraine to gain an upgraded shell,  as part of the harmonization process?  

No, we have VERY bad situation with modern APFSDS and HEAT. Current ammunition allow to succesfully fight only with T-64 and older T-72 tanks. In 2008-2010 were some APFSDS projects "Konchar" and "Konchar-2", but its were closed becase of lack of funding. I don't know many about these projects, just it's developed with some assist of Poland, which developed own APFSDS "Pronit" with Israeli tungsten rods. So penetration of Konchar would be +/- equial to "Pronit"...

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1 minute ago, kinophile said:

Might be a good idea to think about purchasing Pronits from Poland direct!

For CMBS It could be setting in-game,  at the selection process, T-84 Oplot (Pronit) with appropriate rarity levels. 

Yeah. In the T-90AM vs Abrams fight, you can find some relief in the though that if you do spot the enemy, you may have a chance of killing him with the first shot. But in the Oplot vs T-90AM fight, it's effectively "alright, I'm screwed".

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2 hours ago, Euri said:

@danzig5 very eye opening testing for me. Until today I thought that buttoned up offered better spotting due to superior optics

I thought so too for sure. 

4 hours ago, Abdolmartin said:

Yeah. In the T-90AM vs Abrams fight, you can find some relief in the though that if you do spot the enemy, you may have a chance of killing him with the first shot. But in the Oplot vs T-90AM fight, it's effectively "alright, I'm screwed".

Indeed, it is quite a challenge. For this test I only used normal T-90A in service with Russia now and it proved very resilient. 

Is there an issue with Duplet ERA performance recorded by change? Oplot seems to rarely survive Russian shell hits. 

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7 hours ago, danzig5 said:

Is there an issue with Duplet ERA performance recorded by change? Oplot seems to rarely survive Russian shell hits. 

Their turret, which is protected by Duplet, is very resilient. I've had several instances of sabot hitting the turret and just detonating the ERA. But the hull is terribly vulnerable.

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5 hours ago, Abdolmartin said:

Their turret, which is protected by Duplet, is very resilient. I've had several instances of sabot hitting the turret and just detonating the ERA. But the hull is terribly vulnerable.

This is my experience also. 

 

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