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Fighting Russians in Ukraine. A foreign volunteer view.


Ivanov

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You will know when you see it.  You must obey.  It will show you exactly how relevant I consider your links

Also for reference:

vo2a95.jpg

This is a tank of the 6th Tank Brigade from Russia Ground Forces destroyed in April 5th 2003 by America Stronk Panzertruppen in Iraq.  The Crew 100% killed then rest of unit surrender.
It is locate at 32.567973, 43.872561.
 

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@Holms

Dude.  Look at this link.  You'll see how seriously I am taking the information you are posting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

The truth is there.

dude that was just so wrong.  my eyes, my eyes, my ears, no my eyes!!

However I did find it much more informative than the putin bot links.  Then again the Foreman grill commercial would have been more useful.  Speaking of which!

 

 

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It did, but it's annoyingly un-useful to get bogged down debating "if" Russian troops operated in the Ukraine.  There's some question to where they operated off and on, and occasional ambiguous encounters, but the "THERE ARE NO RUSSIANS IN THE UKRAINE EXCEPT PATRIOT DONBASSIANS" was a ship that sailed a long time ago, and it should be mocked accordingly.   

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dude that was just so wrong.  my eyes, my eyes, my ears, no my eyes!!

However I did find it much more informative than the putin bot links.  Then again the Foreman grill commercial would have been more useful.  Speaking of which!

 

 

I am going to make a turkey and bacon sandwich now using my george foreman.  For reasons.  I don't understand. 

Also seriously rickrolling in 2016 should be regarded in the same way as folks who hunt with blackpowder rifles or old school bows and arrows.

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it is a sore subject for discussion, i am bad in English  . and i think we do not always understand each other. Not so long ago in the Russian-language Internet information held about big losses to the Americans in the first operation in Iraq. if I remember correctly, about 80 tanks. the reference was to an American general, can not claim certainty, but I can look.
Certainly Iraqi losses were enormous. But you look how a fight to the example on the Abrams Saudis. How many burnt-Abrams you've seen. ? and who killed them and how?

 

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You're missing the point.

I posted the photo with fictional information on where it was destroyed, who it belonged to, and what happened to it.  It was to show that your links are not for certain the truth because they too had photos and information.

In most of the world it is a well known fact that Russian troops have participated in battle against Ukrainian forces.  Putin as much as admitted illegally placing forces outside of what he was allowed to have inside of the Crimea prior to the fighting, and there have been well documented cases of Russian military regulars involved in the fighting in the eastern Ukraine.  The use of Russian artillery, and air defense to support the various Russian militia groups in the Ukraine is frankly outside of Russia, accepted as entirely real, there's no dispute to it.

The degree of regular Russian forces involved in the actual boots on the ground is less certain, but it is understood to have occurred.  Certainly less than the Ukrainians have claimed, but many times more than the Russian claim of no Russian regular involvement.  It is not helpful to dispute this simply because it is so outside of what is known as to argue the Soviet Union invaded Germany first in World War Two.  

In regards to the original post, it is worth discussing whether the troops seen were Russian regulars, Russian militias trained by the Russian military, some totally independent source or any of the previous two with Russian military support.  It sounds like they were Russian trained, but not regular forces.  It sounds like they're not terribly good at low level tactics.  It stands as a question if this is the end result of being trained to the Russian "standard" and this in itself is unacceptable, or their performance was poor for other reasons.

 

Not so long ago in the Russian-language Internet information held about big losses to the Americans in the first operation in Iraq. if I remember correctly, about 80 tanks. the reference was to an American general, can not claim certainty, but I can look.

While off topic, this is an interesting look into the alternate reality Russian media seems to dwell in.  

Edited by panzersaurkrautwerfer
The bees told me to do it.
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and one person can lead a horse to watering place, but even 100 can not coerce it drink if she does not want.

 

ps. sburke , i am not putins bot, you just stupid.

good luck in the game

damn, showed me!  How can I even begin to consider a reply after such an argument destroying response?

Boy you just wait. When I turn 10 years old I am gonna have a killer come back to that. 

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Holms,

You are completely incorrect. This three part series from VICE NEWS will conclusively demonstrate that Russian soldiers went to Ukraine, were killed in Ukraine and shipped back to Russia for burial. Additionally, the series shows the Russian government has brought pressure to bear on Russians talking about this.

https://news.vice.com/video/russias-ghost-army-in-ukraine-part-1

https://news.vice.com/video/russias-ghost-army-in-ukraine-part-2

Though not labeled so for unknown reasons, this is part 3.

https://news.vice.com/article/it-is-a-government-crime-the-coffins-of-russias-ghost-soldiers-in-ukraine-are-coming-home

This excerpt from the immediately above link says, I think, all that need be said. As noted below, Irina Tumakova is a journalist. That is why she was able to get the truth. When her article was published, not only did things hit the fan, but notice the set of reactive things which happened in rapid succession on the Russian government side. Note particularly the life and death level coercion applied to the families AND what happened to journalists writing about the issue of Russian soldiers fighting and dying in Ukraine!
(Fair Use) 

Having got lost along the way, Irina Tumakova arrived to the cemetery several hours late. By then the area was deserted, save for several soldiers leveling the dirt on two freshly dug-graves. The first belonged to Sgt. Kichatkin, killed on August 19, and the second to Sgt. Alexander Osipov, who died on August 20. Mistaking the reporter for a fellow mourner, a man offered Tumakova a swig of vodka. "My son is here," he said, pointing to Osipov's grave. "Wanted to be a hero." She nodded towards Kichatkin's grave and asked whether he was killed in Ukraine. "Where else?" came the reply.

On August 26, Schlossberg's paper broke the story, setting off a scandal. The division closed ranks. Soldiers' families refused to speak to the press. Unidentified men began to guard the graves, blocking access to any outsiders who tried to get close. Between August 26 and 27, at least seven journalists investigating the mysterious deaths were threatened or attacked, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. The most violent incident involved Schlossberg himself, who was hospitalized for several weeks after being beaten by unknown assailants. "It was a political decision," he told VICE News. "They attacked me professionally. These weren't street hooligans, they knew well where to hit and how to hit."

By the time VICE News visited in October, the men guarding the graves were gone, but the climate of fear remained. None of the Pskov families would go on record and the division didn't respond to inquiries. This did not surprise Schlossberg. "The ones who know what happened are terrified to speak," he said. "They tell them, 'if one of you says this was in Ukraine then that's it, we'll rip the contract and stop the financial support and you'll end up on the street' — and in many cases the soldiers were the sole breadwinners."

Despite the violence, Schlossberg's paper continued to publish reports on the deaths, including information from leaked transcripts suggesting that up to 80 Pskov paratroopers died in a clash with the Ukrainian army on August 20. Schlossberg believes the losses across the entire army are much greater. "The scale of the coverup is colossal," he said. "We don't know exactly how many soldiers were killed in Ukraine, but the number is in the hundreds —possibly more."

Additionally, the Inform Napalm site has a bunch of pics showing specific Russian AFV and trucks, from identified Russian units in Russia, in Ukraine, in the identical markings imaged in Russia and confirmed by unique to the paint pattern and condition, as well as dents and dings. It has reams more than that on Russian military personnel. Chapter and verse taken from multiple Russian sources, heavily social media, frequently rapidly deleted by Russian authorities after an embarrassing revelatory story breaks. Inform Napalm, though, routinely takes screenshots.

Direct identification of contract air gunners from the Russian 21st Brigade in the Donbas

https://informnapalm.org/en/feb11-donbas-antiair/

Identification of Russian military units fighting in Ukraine and their artillery as part of the invasion force

https://informnapalm.org/en/identification-military-units-armament-artillery-elements-russian-invasion-forces/

17th Independent Motor Rifle Brigade IDed in Ukraine, complete with a specific Russian tank officer 

https://informnapalm.org/en/tankman-russian-officer-17th-independent-motor-rifle-brigade-participated-armed-hostilities-donbas/
 

Two groups from Siberia operating in Ukraine or on the border. One's from a 32nd Separate Motorized Rifle Brigade (SMRB), and the other is Spetsnaz.Separate Special Purpose Squadron (SSPS) from the 24th Special Purpose Brigade, of the GRU.

 

https://informnapalm.org/en/uninvited-guests-siberia/

247th Air Assault Regiment in Ukraine

https://informnapalm.org/en/nov29-donbass-247/

5th Separate Tank Brigade

https://informnapalm.org/en/jan12-donbas-buryat/

5th Separate Tank Brigade at Debaltseve

https://informnapalm.org/en/5th-tank-brigade-russian-army-battle-debaltseve/

If these, taken in aggregate, don't convince you, then nothing will.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler
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Guys, what's the point. If someone believes that there was no Russian army in Ukraine, you won't convince him. Infonapalm, can be dismissed as a Ukrainian propaganda. People believe in what they want to believe. What's really scary, is the huge mental gap in how people in Russia and in the West percieve the same facts and events. It brings a sad realization, that due to that, no real rapprochement is possible in any foreseeable future.

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Guys, what's the point. If someone believes that there was no Russian army in Ukraine, you won't convince him. Infonapalm, can be dismissed as a Ukrainian propaganda. People believe in what they want to believe. What's really scary, is the huge mental gap in how people in Russia and in the West percieve the same facts and events. It brings a sad realization, that due to that, no real rapprochement is possible in any foreseeable future.

I think it's more critical that Russians are always wrong, so really there can never be rapprochement.

Joking aside, it is frustrating.  It's a bit like being unable to get partway through a dialectic.  

Thesis: Russian forces in the Ukraine might be not so good at small level tactics.
Counter Thesis: There are no Russians in the Ukraine this is impossible.
Thesis: Pretty much everyone knows there's Russians there man.
Counter Thesis: No.  It's impossible because here's some stuff from Russia Today and no other sources.

If we were dealing with more of a halfway position, that given the unit in question it's highly doubtful the commentary from the original post applies to actual Russian forces, or there were more of a depth to the "no Russians" theory, it'd be interesting at least. Or at least I'd be less inclined to break out the Rick.  

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In regards to the original post, it is worth discussing whether the troops seen were Russian regulars, Russian militias trained by the Russian military, some totally independent source or any of the previous two with Russian military support.  It sounds like they were Russian trained, but not regular forces.  It sounds like they're not terribly good at low level tactics.  It stands as a question if this is the end result of being trained to the Russian "standard" and this in itself is unacceptable, or their performance was poor for other reasons.

 

It can be explained pretty straight forward. Those volunteers were passing through provisional training camps set on the Russian side. The training was very rudimentary due to the lack of time. During the time of crisis, when the Ukrainians were on the offensive, the training period was about a week. So even if some of them had previous military experience, it was just not enough to form the volunteers into efficient subunits, that would learn and follow even the basic team tactics. As already mentioned - Ukrainian forces were no better due to similar reasons. 

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OK, stepping in here first as Moderator.

Let's try and not get personal as we debate.  That gets nowhere fast and often destroys what might otherwise be a very interesting discussion.

Second, Russian regular army forces have been involved in Donbas since the very start.  Special forces at first, then increasingly larger amounts.  The two large scale involvements of Russian regular armed forces were the August/September 2014 counter attack (only the most ignorant and/or stupid person would even attempt to deny this) and Debaltseve (even an ignorant or stupid person wouldn't even try to deny this because it is so flipp'n obvious).  A fairly dense concentration of Russian regular forces were involved in the battles for the Donetsk airport, but the total numbers involved at one time were fairly small.  Force levels other than these two times have been consistent though smaller in number.  In fact, yesterday several reports stated that the Russian 331st Airborne RGT got hit in Svitlodar and lost 5 dead 2 injured.

Then there is the whole supply, command and control, electronic warfare, intel gathering, training, etc. forces that are the only reason there is a "separatist" army in the first place.

If someone wants to deny Russia's direct military participation in the war in Donbas they my do so, but not here.  If someone wants to deny the Holocaust, landing on the moon, or Elvis' death they may also do that.  But not here.  It insults the intelligence of our members here and wastes everybody's time having to deal with such nonsense.

Steve

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