CM: BS DAR Gnarls vs. Artemis258: Art begone...

[Seedorf81]

I share your frustrations. Just playing the BS (Eh, so there can be no misunderstanding, I mean Black Sea, not Bull S#*T) DEMO and even my US troops get slaughtered while not seeing anything! My drones get shot down, as do my Apaches (and if not, they seem to miss tanks and BMP3's with an uncanny accuracy!) while the HIND helo's decimate my troops. EVEN IN THE IMMEDIATE SURROUNDING OF DEPLOYED STINGERTEAMS!

"Keyboard through screen", indeed.

I probably need to get a little more experience..

(Did I mention the fact that my artillery seemingly misses more than the CMBN arty?)

I probably must be a little masochistic, since I still love the game..

[A Canadian Cat]

LOL yeah it can feel masochistic at times.

@gnarly don't rush that is just asking to loose two tanks don't get suckered into other people wanting to see your stuff get wrecked for their entertainment

Here is something I do in situations like this - shoot and scoot.  So, make sure someone has eyes on the target so you know what it is doing - you already seem to have that.  Then have the tanks that are having trouble seeing area fire for 15s at the enemy pause for 15s and back off behind cover.  Rinse and repeat.  I find that this does two things - it seems to focus the crew on where the enemy is and it puts some rounds on target.  Backing off is important thought because it also draws attention to your position.  Add in other threats into the mix is a good idea too - in your case you already have artillery firing on him.  Do you have any ATGMs that could be put into a position with LOS on the target?

[c3k]

Don't listen to those cowards! Dismount both tanks, have the crews scrounge some RPGs, and then have them advance, on foot, and flank the T90. They will thank you for giving them the opportunity to cover themselves in gory!

 

Err, "glory".

Ken

[gnarly]

They will thank you for giving them the opportunity to convert themselves into gore!

 

Ken

I've corrected that for you Ken! 

[gnarly]

Alright, for completeness sake, I better catch up on about 10 minutes of game time.....

Minutes 38-36

As Art describes it, lots of 'Dakka-dakka'. My maneuver team, including the IFV and its dismounting squad, stays put, and puts down a intense cross fire, engaging at least 5 hovering RPG teams to it's front and right, two remnants of AGS teams and other infantry bits and bobs. They seem to be attracted to my tanks like moths to a flame....


Minutes 36-33

I push two of these Oplots and the remounted IFV a little east up the hill to the next treeline band, with the intent of getting better LOS down onto the T-90's hidey hole. The IFV infantry dismount in the treeline, but are savaged to combat ineffectiveness by a close-by hidden PKM.

I push the remaining Oplot a little down the main road, to cover the crossroad better, but it's destroyed by the T-90.

Minute 33-30

The T-90 is spotted advancing across the cross-roads, and lazes one of the Oplots, who furiously backpedals; the T-90's shot falls short, but it quickly dispatches the IFV, which I have stupidly pushed forward too far. As per my previous cranky post, neither Oplot ever saw the T-90, even with static LOS.

The T-90 then retreats back across the road.

A truck goes boom on Art's backfield, but it's irrelevant.

I took the conservative approach at this point, and backed of my tanks, letting the arty (which has been ongoing the whole time) continue to pound the crossroads, hoping for a lucky hit. TBH, I wish I had bum-rushed my remaining two Oplots down the ridge, whilst I still knew where the T-90 was. And finished the match with a bang, one way or the other.

Instead.......

Minutes 30

Another truck goes Boom in Arts backfield. Probbaly my ever reliable northern-most IFV? But again, relevance = 0.

Bored, I pushed one of the two Oplots solo up to the top of Big Hill, to try and position it for a flank look down shot onto the T-90. it took out a few footsloggers on the way, before..

Minute 29

...getting destroyed by an unseen footslogger in the trees.


Summary of the above, at minute 28



From the remaining Oplot's position:




So I've sent off another turn. Whilst the arty is still pounding the cross roads, one of my two ATGM's with intermittent LOS is out of rounds, and the other is down to 2 rounds, and I've got no reloads.

So I've let Art know there will be a Ceasefire forthcoming on the turn after; this cat and mouse business is dreadfully dull... It's a bit like trying to find that one trooper hiding in a Victory Location..

[gnarly]

Sigh.

 

So that Oplot that I pushed up the big hill and got

Minute 29

... destroyed by an unseen footslogger in the trees.

 

was still unbuttoned from my useless attempt at getting better spotting at the base of the hill. Seems it was an infantry HQ that rolled some grenades into the hatch.

Don't think I can reinforce stupidity any further...

[gnarly]

[Abdolmartin]

That was definitely a pyrrhic victory for the Russians! The extreme imbalance in infantry casualty figures show how well you've done. Don't worry about your tank losses, Oplots do look like modern tanks, but they're T-34s at heart.  Seriously though, you did pretty well.

Regarding that Oplot, is it even possible in-game to throw nades into a tank through the open hatch? Wow!

[Euri]

@gnarly That was a really enjoyable DAR. Btw. Which software do you use to annotate the screenshots? 

[Artemis258]

Phew... now that was an intense battle! Death and destruction on both sides!!!! 

Firstly, many tanks to Gnarly! This was probably the most exciting Combat Mission game I've played yet!

I thought I'd finish of this AAR with some of my thoughts from the game, given that I haven't had time to flesh out a full one of my own. 


Set Up; 

From the get-go I knew it was going to be bloody; thermal sights, open ground and the occasional tree? blergh. So much so that I figured buying tanks would be a waste; there would simply be too many angles to cover, and too many opportunities for a sneaky ATGM or RPG... especially  given the Ukranians have a shoulder launched variety. The only thing I felt I had going for me was the Hole, that little depression that so thankfully escaped Gnarly's notice for half the game! If I could hide a tank or two down there, I thought they might last long enough to fend off the enemy advance. 

So my thoughts at this point were that infantry, supported by IFV's, would be my opponent's deciding factor. To this end I took a basic motor rifle company, well stocked with ATGMs (for the IFVs), and a buttload of mortars. Keeping most of them on-map meant I could have 6 rounds 120mm HE right when I wanted it, no delays, no passing go, no $200. The transports were likewise kept to mostly machinegun-armed BTR's for the same reason; lost of heavy machine guns with good sights. I also (apparently falsely) believed the 14.5 would be sufficient to have a chance of penetrating a BMP. Apparently only the M2's with their Saboted Light Armour Penetrator can manage this feat.

Lesson 1: If you want to hurt an IFV, you have to SLAP them! 

Finally, the map presneted only 3 potential crossing maps, the banks too steep for any amphibious crossing. These chokepoints identified, I thought it'd be fun to seed them liberally with mines. @Gnarly your tank flank crossed this minefield totally unmolested! One of my own keyboard-through-screen moments! 

Lesson 2: If you want a minefield, build it big. But it's probably a waste. 


Purchases: 1 company from a Motor Rifle Battalion, with all their AT asssets, in BTRs with 14.5's
 Company and Battalion Mortars, 120mm, on map with Trucks 
Company ATGM platoon, on map in BTR's with 30mm 
2* T90A's
Deployment wise is pretty much as Gnarly discovered, I didn't have much options for movement (open ground) and many of my troops died in their foxholes. 


Contact!

The battle unfolded more or less as I expected, with one notable exception; Gnarly's force was almost exactly the opposite to what I had expected. Rather than face troops, I saw before myself an armored company! Initially I counted on Gnarly to take up 'the armored fist' and advance head long, and I expected to bag a few tanks, have him pull back, and then have a reasonable exchange as he uncovered my positions as they fired, hopefully swapping an atgm team for a tank each time. Not a great plan, needlessly bloody, but with literally nowhere to run it was the best I had. When the missile teams were gone, I would tease the last of his armour onto the mines and ambush them with rpgs... 
At this point I figured my transports were toast, and was glad that I'd emptied them of anything seriously useful. 

It didn't go that way at all. Instead I watched helplessly as my lines were pummeled into oblivion with direct fire, and the missiles that did get off impacted harmlessly into trees. Nearly every missile team got at least one shot off, yet only one vehicle was hit! I hate trees. I hate trees so much. 

Lesson 3: Active Tree Defense is Real and should NEVER be underestimated

I won't recount the dakka fest that followed, it's pretty plain to see what happened. I was amazed how many hits that T90 took! Each tank accounted for 3 Oblots each, and the surviving one still had ammo aplenty. Their survival was due to sneak and peak tactics with the only viable defensive position my side of the map, and I'm bloody glad I took them!

Lesson 4: If more than the barrel of the gun is exposed, you're balls naked to the breeze

The flank battle was really where it was all decided. When I saw that happening I was elated; the moment he drives over those mines, BOOM! they'll be tracked or worse, and I can hide in my hole while he rethinks his strategy! Imagine my surprise when three tanks and a BMP roll right over as if it were a field of daisies. 

It was only by the smallest of margins that the surviving T-90, hearing the Infantry crying in despair over the radio being the only distraction from the rolling cacophony of  artillery hammering the hull, managed to hold off the advance. 

Meanwhile, the young Lieutenant and his team, preparing themselves for their final stand, saw the Oblot roll right up to their position, oblivious, and begin reining fire on what remained on their command.... stealing themselves they mounted the engine decking, hurling grenades into any opening they could find...


From my perspective, it was a valliant end to a desperate fight... though I can understand my opponent's bloody frustration! 





What I Would have done differently: 

More Armour. Scrap every BTR in the joint for another T-90. Even a 72. Preferably 2. Push the new two tanks across the river on the north (my left) flank and right up against the defilade. Forget holding the high ground of the hill - too target rich. Make like snakes in the grass. Tighter fire arcs, more surprise. 

My biggest mistake: Counting too much on an infantry fight. Not being prepared to counter Armour threats; particularly defending against IR optics. The moment he started blasting my lines, my troops were fixed. Couldn't move an inch. Nearly a hundred dead and half as many wounded will attest to that mistake. 

Chief mistake of my opponent: 
A really tough fight, and I don't think I could fault my opponent's actions. He held back and plastered me completely. My only thought is that perhaps it was too much Armour; lacking the footslogging support needed to secure ground. and push me back. By the time the tanks and arty had finished with my lines, there wasn't much left to fend off an advance save my lone tank; if there'd been infantry supporting that flank I think it could have really turned the tide. There was almost no-where to hide the damned things either; after turn 3 I knew pretty much exactly where my opponents tanks were at all times thanks to the thermals on my tanks and the positioning of my scouts. It really was not a tank friendly map. 


Lesson 5: You're not outnumbered, you're just in a target-rich environment


A phenomenal game Gnarly. I'd recommend him as a challenging and reliable opponent any time! As always, I'm up for a rematch whenever you are mate!


Art.   

[A Canadian Cat]

Nice work you guys!  Well done.  I liked your lessons @Artemis258 - especially #5 LOL

[Abdolmartin]

<snip>

Lesson 5: You're not outnumbered, you're just in a target-rich environment

</snip>

This is better than 95% of Patton's quotes!

[Haiduk]

...

Can you show statistic of BM Oplot hits ? Places of penetration, types of ammunition which penetrated, how often ERA succesfully work ? It's very strange, because I spent many times for investsgation of protection capabilities of Oplots in the game, because it had problem with ERA, wich didn't want to stop tandem warheads and didn't work against APFSDS in some parts. My reports was implemented and Oplot protection in 1.03 became significantly better (but of course not absolute). So either you wasn't lucky or... ERA bugs developed again ? 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Haiduk

[Haiduk]

I know that the US has supplied a considerable amount of NVGs (maybe even TWS) to Ukraine. Has BFC factored this in, together with the wholly expected further massive issue in the context of a full-on invasion?

No. Most of UKR equipment is on 2013 year situation with some additions, which have time to implement during patches. But despite on western aid, state orders and volunteers help,  situation with NV/IR supply is still unsatisfactory. Roughly now one company has 1-2 IR devices, and each squad equipped with 1-2 NV/IR sights for own guns. Some units equipped better (especially airmobile), some worth (especially new-formed motorized infantry brigades) 

[Artemis258]

Can you show statistic of BM Oplot hits ? Places of penetration, types of ammunition which penetrated, how often ERA succesfully work ? It's very strange, because I spent many times for investsgation of protection capabilities of Oplots in the game, because it had problem with ERA, wich didn't want to stop tandem warheads and didn't work against APFSDS in some parts. My reports was implemented and Oplot protection in 1.03 became significantly better (but of course not absolute). So either you wasn't lucky or... ERA bugs developed again ? 

Though I don't have immediate numbers, both sides took hits from APDFS at fairly short range that were defeated or mitigated somewhat by ERA. THat said engagement ranges were often 2-300 meters so there would have been practically zero drop in impact force. 

[gnarly]

In the morning following the ceasefire, the Ukrainians listened to the unmistakable sounds of the Russians withdrawl reverberating across the river. Lieutenant Vodnik, commander of the surviving Oplot from the maneuver group, ordered the follow on engineering teams to check for mines around the river crossings; he was stunned at his luck, when informed of the 3 mines on the east side of the southern ford that his team had managed to completely avoid....

Touring the now-empty Russian lines, he was horrified at the carnage and devastation, in particular the sheer number of corpses that had been left behind.. In places, foxholes were filled with body parts and gore from it seemed almost entire teams. The 'Hollow' from which the pair of T-90's lurked with such with impunity, contained 3 destroyed BTR's in addition to the burnt-out T-90.

Nevertheless, the Lieutenant was gratified that his erstwhile commander, LG Verynydub, had been right about an OP in the buildings at the minor objective; that first artillery barrage look to have caught an entire ATGM team, HQ and infantry squad in its barrage:



Additionally the follow-up barrage on the remaining buildings there caught most of another infantry team with a single shell:



The Lieutenant estimated he'd faced about 6 mortar teams, of which one was found in it's entirety shredded at the base of their foxhole:





Great match @Artemis258 as always!

Lessons (re-) learnt on my side (see the first post!):

#1 - BS games with armour really need a map size x2 larger that the force size. Otherwise it ends up be an outright pew-pew from near each forces' baselines, which really then is a function of technology, with little if any room for maneuvering. And without maneuvering, the Oplots are simply outgunned by T-90's. But that was all my fault (again!)....

#2 - Need to pay more attention to the actually weapons chosen by the antitank teams; I think I had prehistoric recoiless rifles and AT-4's, both of which got hits, but didn't get any penetrations. Instead Ski'f and Corsars (thanks @Abbasid111)

#3 - I also need to think more about smoke and thermals, and trying to use BRM-1K's (thanks @Abdolmartin)

#4 - Lastly, more recce of my opponents terrain. I completely missed the 'Hollow', and even a single TRP in there could have made the difference. As it was, I still have no idea what (if anything) I could have done about those T-90's; any Oplot trying to get LOS into there died trying, and there was no way I could get the FO to get LOS onto it. And with the Oplots poor spotting, even trying to advance a tank up for 15 seconds to hull-down with area fire into the target, then reverse, is not going to work, if it takes the tank over 30 seconds to spot into there.

I'd love to agree to @Arts comment about my lack of infantry, but if I'd sacrificed even just two tanks, I wouldn't have gotten across the river in the first place. Now, if I had the points for even just two more squads and IFV's, without losing anything else, who knows?!?

Would have been interesting to see what would have happened if a certain tank way up the top of Big Hill had actually been buttoned when it bumped into that command squad (or was that squad also packing anti-tank Art?) BTW @Artemis258, I'm sure our audience would love to see some pics, or even better, some video of that little frag session your command team conducted? I most certainly would!

Thanks all for tuning in! @Mr_Centipede I think it's your turn next!

Edited February 28, 2016 by gnarly

[gnarly]

That was definitely a pyrrhic victory for the Russians! The extreme imbalance in infantry casualty figures show how well you've done. Don't worry about your tank losses, Oplots do look like modern tanks, but they're T-34s at heart.  Seriously though, you did pretty well.

Regarding that Oplot, is it even possible in-game to throw nades into a tank through the open hatch? Wow!

Yeah, I am absolutely stunned at the body count, and the number of completely devastated teams lying atop each other. But I must admit that by the end, I was so frustrated with the Oplots' blindness, I totally forgot/overlooked the victory locations, which I've always previously payed attention to. Even just getting a man or nachine into the major VP location would have nullified its 300+ points to Art. Them's the breaks when you are impatient and frustrated!

 

Re the nades/hatch thing, we'll have to await some screens (or better?) from @Artemis258; I REALLY want to see that!

[gnarly]

@gnarly That was a really enjoyable DAR. Btw. Which software do you use to annotate the screenshots? 

Thanks Euri for reading and the feedback!

 

I use SnagIt, simply because its what I use day in and day out for work. Fantastic generalist image capture and manipulation software.

[gnarly]

Nice work you guys!  Well done.  I liked your lessons @Artemis258 - especially #5 LOL

Thanks Ian!

 

Though technically, I was the outnumbered one!   I think Art had like 220 men, versus my barlely 90??  Though BTRs do produce a nice target rich environment, especially as practice for that RR team... Shame they don't go BOOM very well, unlike the autoloaders in BMP-3's!

[gnarly]

Can you show statistic of BM Oplot hits ? Places of penetration, types of ammunition which penetrated, how often ERA succesfully work ? It's very strange, because I spent many times for investsgation of protection capabilities of Oplots in the game, because it had problem with ERA, wich didn't want to stop tandem warheads and didn't work against APFSDS in some parts. My reports was implemented and Oplot protection in 1.03 became significantly better (but of course not absolute). So either you wasn't lucky or... ERA bugs developed again ? 

Not easily @Haiduk. I only recall one hit on an Oplot being defeated by the ERA, and that was in the gunfight versus the first T-90A. All the others I think were killed on the first hit, and I  am assuming they were all APFSDS rounds (@Artemis258??).

 

Interestingly, many (all?) of my tank rounds down on the T-90's were Kombat missiles, which I thought a little odd.  Surely if there was a chance of the T-90's having Arena fitted, you'd rather go with APFSDS every time, unless the target was beyond main gun range?

Edited February 28, 2016 by gnarly

[Artemis258]

I thought at least two of your tanks took more than one hit, one more than 2, but that might be my memory. 

I'll see what I can do for you re a short movie of the assault!

Edit: got the movie, just gotta play with it, though I warn you it's pretty dull :S 

I found 2 tanks that defeated AP rounds with ERA: 



This one defeated a frontal hit to the upper glacis (red) and was killed by a similar hit higher up and to the left  



This one defeated an AP hit to the front left turret (red) 




And here the kill shot, a penetration to the (unprotected) gun mantlet in yellow

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Artemis258

[Abdolmartin]

Not easily @Haiduk. I only recall one hit on an Oplot being defeated by the ERA, and that was in the gunfight versus the first T-90A. All the others I think were killed on the first hit, and I  am assuming they were all APFSDS rounds (@Artemis258??).

 

Interestingly, many (all?) of my tank rounds down on the T-90's were Kombat missiles, which I thought a little odd.  Surely if there was a chance of the T-90's having Arena fitted, you'd rather go with APFSDS every time, unless the target was beyond main gun range?

Haiduk pointed out in some other thread (don't remember which) that the best Ukrainian APFSDS round is still insufficient for the frontal armour of T-90s and that's why they give priority to ATGMs over sabot.

The turret ERA of the Oplot is actually quite tough and stops T-90 sabot rounds. But the hull is terribly vulnerable. Same for turret's side.

[Haiduk]

I thought at least two of your tanks took more than one hit, one more than 2, but that might be my memory. 

I'll see what I can do for you re a short movie of the assault!

Edit: got the movie, just gotta play with it, though I warn you it's pretty dull :S 

I found 2 tanks that defeated AP rounds with ERA: 

So, on pic 1 and pic 2 APFSDS hits didn't cause ERA initiation ? This digital camo - I can't see - either ERA blocks in the places of hits are present or not... 

On pic 1 hit in upper front hull near lower front hull. I remember, there was a bug, when this zone considered by game model as lower front hull or something this... As if this problem was solved, but hmmm...looks like it sometimes develope itself again... 

2 Abdolmartin:

Yes, I wrote about Russian test with shelling of T-90A glacis protected with Kontakt-5 with 3BM-42 Mango APFSDS, which uses in game model of Oplot. Only 300 mm penetration LOS.

The side hull and turret side are vulnerable in all tanks. But if this about glacis with Duplet ERA...

I just can say for you guys, that in further you will feel more frustration with UKR armor. In-game T-64BVs have too powerful APFSDS, then its are using now in real war, I think this will be corrected... So, NEVER try to attack modern Russian tanks in frontal projection. Even you has Oplot. Only shoot&scoot, only maneuver, only ambushes. In this way fight our tankers now in real war, even despite on they have a deal with older T-72B. Direct tank clashes head-tohead happen not so often, though of course took place. For example during Debaltseve operation, when one T-64BV engaged three enemy tanks (T-72B mod,1989 and T-64BV) in almost open field and have detroyed all. Or attack of 4 UKR tanks on the fork bridge in Donetsk, when during withrawal after successfull attack our tank was enhaged by suddenly appeared on the street enemy T-72B, which shot from 50 m by APFSDS and penetrated glacis of our tank.    

 

[gnarly]

I thought at least two of your tanks took more than one hit, one more than 2, but that might be my memory. 

I'll see what I can do for you re a short movie of the assault!

Edit: got the movie, just gotta play with it, though I warn you it's pretty dull :S 

I found 2 tanks that defeated AP rounds with ERA: 



This one defeated a frontal hit to the upper glacis (red) and was killed by a similar hit higher up and to the left  



This one defeated an AP hit to the front left turret (red) 




And here the kill shot, a penetration to the (unprotected) gun mantlet in yellow

 

Thanks for that Artemis, I had already forgotten all about that second tank (it was the Company HQ tank that finally killed your T-90, before succombing to two rounds from your toehr T-90, and a third rounding killing the bailing driver (?). Is there a way/mod that really highlights these hit decals during the post-match AAR? Equally important, is there anyway of pulling up the 'hit penetration' text info after the fact (i.e. identifying which 'hit' was actually fatal)?  Or can you only visually inspect them, and have to dig back through the saved turn files to pull up the hit info?

 

Also, which mod are you using for the digital camo?

 

 

[Abbasid111]

That looks like Kieme's Digital Camo Mod for the Oplot. He also does the Oplot in standard green so you can pick which you want to use.

I highly recommend any of his mods for CMBS