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Do you guys think North Africa will ever come?


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The Sahara is indeed stunningly beautiful, and stunningly irrelevant since there was practically no fighting there.

Dude. That's pretty insulting. I did not say the terrain was flat and featureless, I said it lacked bottleneck terrain. There is a difference. In a CMBN map you might easily more than one bottleneck per 100m x 100m. In North African you'd probably be lucky to have just one per 1000m x 1000m.

I've got a reasonable grasp on the nature of the terrain between El Alamein and Medenine, and the way seemingly minor local terrain dictated the course of battles, as you already know. I've also made CM maps for bits and pieces of that area in CMAK, and Syrian-style desert maps in CMSF. I already that CM scenarios can be done in that environment. But I don't believe it is what CM is good at, as opposed to what CM can do.

Dude. Jumping into the middle of a conversation like that is pretty disrespectful. Read my first post - I specifically called out NWA as a good candidate area.

 

Edit: I was hoping this might become an informed discussion by people who know what they’re talking about regarding the merits of different times and places for the CM engine – hopefully it's obvious that just because a time and place could be done in CM doesn’t mean it should be done? Instead we've got yet another ‘your mother smells of elderberries’ level of discourse. That could have been predicted, I guess, but as they say; trying to engage on internet forums is the triumph of hope over reality :D

"Bottleneck"... Maybe a whole bunch of mines would help with that?  Oh, but I am sure you are aware of that Oh Great Scenario Creating Master!  :D

I use CM as a way of revisiting history of any battle.  For me CM is a study of all battles, not which one would be the perfect battle for a CM game only.  Your high horse view seems biased in that you are obviously only worried about the rating that your scenario may get (understandable to a point).  Which means that you do not think that certain desert battles are worth much for your time and effort.  This now brings me back to what I originally said and what you disrespectfully had a hissy fit over...  I totally disagree.  

I would appreciate any scenario that you or anyone else would create that may not be on the "ideal" battlefield for CM.  As they say War is hell.

Edited by Blazing 88's
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I don’t see the point in counter arguing with forumites over this. And it’s internet so by default it will go harsh :)

Of course, customer whining and wishes are not directly transferred to sale and BFC probably knows that better. There is already CMAK done so no point in reasoning if BFC can do it or was wishing to do it (wishes again).

After all, Tunisia part in terrain is more similar to Sicily than desert but with flat roofs, little bit sand, palms and Rommel spice. Btw How many desert pictures anyone saw lately from Syria? And there You have many famous battles (Kasserine pass!) and Americans and Patton step in, so that Campaign has good selling points if it's that what’s, understandably, worries BFC.

rick-09-sbeitla-ruins.jpg

Roman ruins on the western edge of Sbeitla, gateway to Kasserine Pass

 

For CMx2 engine capacity I think that only problem is that most of the Rommel genius was archived with strategically moving Panzers over vast desert areas and that's outside of scope for CM map sizes.

And yes, mostly tank battles but poeple love them :)

 

rick-08-djebel-lessouda.jpg

Djebel Lessouda in the north, as viewed from the onion field near Sidi bou Zid

 

So one forumite vote, wish and whining for Tunisia Campaign even as a extension to CMFI.
In the meantime, do we have any beta battles for this mini-mod (one big download please), cause without scenarios to be fought, those are only nice pictures.

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Dude. That's pretty insulting.

I don't think you need to feel that way. At least that was not my intent, and I usually know when I mean to insult someone. Furthermore, you should know by now that I hold you in high regard and have said so in these pages ere now. You do not wish for a North African game. Okay, got that. That is your prerogative and a valid data point in charting a likely reception. I do wish for it and that is my prerogative and another valid data point. What I will say now because you don't seem to get it is that so far you have not presented any compelling arguments why your desire should trump my own. Now if we can dispense with the personal sensitivities and get down to brass tacks or lacking that simply agree to disagree, maybe we can get the discussion back on track.

Michael

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I don't write formal scenarios anymore...but anybody who wants to can.

RemsolCBR has one in progress for Tunisia 43 I believe. ETA 1 to 2 months he said. So maybe in April? 

I will usually just do and already have in progress a small test map for PBEM H2H or simple AI plan for playing against the AI dummy on the defense. No briefing or fancy stuff.

****

Back on topic!  

My 2 cent opinion is that I think BFC should get more agile to market out a lower scope solution to many of these requests.

I am inexperienced with how long it takes to develop a storefront website. But is anyone else a bit surprised that their new storefront website has been in development now for how long? 3 or 4 weeks since they said it was their number one focus? to have a way to take your money for the brand new CMFB game or germane to this discussion, take your money for a vehicle pack or mini-module to make a few bucks off this niche of north africa. They need a quick template to make these "splinter versions" of the game. They need a way to pack up some content and charge you for it and press forward. No big grand module solutions with weeks of TOE  research. I guess I personally don't really see the big deal about accurate TOE as I play little hodge podge battles. Quick battle throws all that TOE stuff to the wind anyway, scenario authors do as they please, it all seems like a bit of a wasted effort. Just post some pdf's to describe the recommended TOE maybe? At least for these mini-modules.

My idea for a BFC Mini-module for africa: BFC would ask their "stable" of hotshot scenario/campaign authors if they have anything in the hopper. If not, then it ships without any scenarios/campaigns, just a new brz file with some new added mdr files and maybe a few new maps. They decide a dollar amount and they make some money. Right or wrong? Instead they do the big scope project and need a dozen new scenarios, campaigns, qb maps, Bil AAR. Jeez. 

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At the risk of being labeled a cretin, I thoroughly enjoyed early war tanks in AK blazing away at each other at ridiculous ranges and mostly missing. 

Great H2H battles, trying to decide if you should close, or stay back and hope to get lucky, and when to pull back.  Some of my favorite battles.

Plenty of interesting terrain in the desert and the smoke and haze effects we could have now would be awesome.

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At the risk of being labeled a cretin, I thoroughly enjoyed early war tanks in AK blazing away at each other at ridiculous ranges and mostly missing. 

Great H2H battles, trying to decide if you should close, or stay back and hope to get lucky, and when to pull back.  Some of my favorite battles.

Plenty of interesting terrain in the desert and the smoke and haze effects we could have now would be awesome.

Yep I agree, but you gotta have those bottlenecks to have a good wargame you know!1!1...  Lame.

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"Of course, customer whining and wishes are not directly transferred to sale and BFC probably knows that better. There is already CMAK done so no point in reasoning if BFC can do it or was wishing to do it (wishes again)."

 

There is plenty reason for revisiting it. There are quite a few on this forum including myself that didnt play CMx1 and compared to CMx2 Cmx1 is utter trash.. I am sure it was great in 2003, but for me it is unplayable.. So i would love to see North Africa.. Also Bagration, battle of the bulge, and Normandy were all covered in CMx1 games does that mean we didnt need to see them again?  

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There is plenty reason for revisiting it. There are quite a few on this forum including myself that didnt play CMx1 and compared to CMx2 Cmx1 is utter trash.. I am sure it was great in 2003, but for me it is unplayable.. So i would love to see North Africa.. Also Bagration, battle of the bulge, and Normandy were all covered in CMx1 games does that mean we didnt need to see them again?  

I was just meaning about BFC technical ability and willingness to do the theatre regardless of the engine version or the timeframe. Summer 2016 with CMx3 the best :D Internet, internet... 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I had joked that BFC is starting to run themselves out of 'popular' wars to fight! Not much of a call for them to produce a Chaco war title between Bolivia and Paraguay. How about Greece versus Turkey on Cyprus 1974? South Africa versus Cuba in Angola 1975? India vs Pakistan in Kashmir 1965? Yes, they'd be interesting but hardly big sellers.

So North Africa would be the logical 'new title' for them to eventually pursue. The list of vehicle types that didn't make the jump from North Africa to Sicily is pretty long. From Crusaders to Lees to Valentines. Frankly, I'd like to see it start Brits as basegame allies and the Americans show up in a module, instead of the other way around. Another advantage of North Africa is the theater is researchable. Imagine Steve trying to construct a proper TO&E for Pakistan v India 1965. We'd need to put him on  suicide watch! :blink:

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I wont ever say never but yeah i doubt it too. I doubt east vs west ww2 as well.  I can still hope, one could really try to argue that by the time FB and RT are done BFC would just need to swap vehicle sets that were made around and unleash the scenario makers for some east vs west 45 action.

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