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Something Very Wrong with LOS Through Trees


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Oh I thought you were kidding around.

OK here is the story. A while back I played a lot of Magic the Gathering and I wrote a program to help track cards and design decks. It was called Wizard's Familiar. I had a bunch of clip art and graphics of various black cats around to make an icon. That guy was one image that I did not use for that project. So, when I was looking for an avatar I picked that from my HD. Then I used that avatar and the name A Canadian Cat on YouTube and theBlitz as well.

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  • 9 months later...

As a long time player of all the cm games i appreciate what the issue is and why he rage quit.

Been there done that and was playing the following week ;)

I was playing a pbm and i shot my opponents tank thru a lot of pine looking trees

Im taking alot of trees

Say 35 trees deep

The position of the trees was quite mixed but i got what i call that "sweet spot"

I was shocked by it cause it seemed like a bug

Tried replicating it but couldnt

Tried other angles but none worked

I have had infantry, at guns , tanks shoot thru building windows to hit targets on the other side of the building, thru trees and bushes into areas that appear not to have LOS

It rare and happens

The blue line showing LOS is a 98% Indicator as to what you can see

That is taken from a certain point from the unit / vehicle that can see or shoot

Other points "may" be visible of your unit to the enemy 

Ie your tank 

Your LOS blue line is showing LOS to the ground point also

A higher object ie vehicle will possibly become visible that is just outside of the blue line LOS zone

Cover with deep trees is usually ok i note

But there are gaps and there is that small chance

Its rare but happens

I personally play with the LOS viewers as a rough guide

I roughly know i can see something in that area but it is not guaranteed or as clear cut especially with terrain features and moving tanks or infantry moving or ducking

You need to all take that into consideration

This applys to CMBS as well 

 

 

 

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  • 11 months later...

Line of sight in general can be a bit stupid sometimes.

I played the second battle in the demo for Final Blitzkrieg, but did it for the Germans, and had a Sherman outside one of the houses about 10 meters away. The German soldier inside the house couldn't see the tank unless he went up on the second floor. There was nothing blocking the line of sight between him and the tank when he was on the ground floor.

Another situation was a German with a panzerschreck using the slow movement command and crawling towards an American halftrack to knock it out. Although he was about 5 meters away from it he couldn't see it properly but had to stand up and start walking normaly before he could shoot at it.

Edited by BornGinger
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Have often said that CM is a bit like "The Game Of Figuring Out LOS".  One learns to live with it.  But, yes, it is frustrating that the AI can spot a one-pixel wide gap between dozens/hundreds of meters of foliage and kill a tank.  You as a human player cannot see that by getting down to ground level and eyeballing it. 

Also, in urban settings particularly, we often are unable to see or target an enemy when eye-balling would indicate there should be no problem.  The WYSIWYG that is claimed does not often work in practice.   However, imo best thing is to be happy with what aspects of the game work well (and that is a lot), and ignore the frustrating bits.  Maybe CM3 will work out these kinks.  A major reason am starting to look forward to that version rather than waiting for the game to get to early eras.

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  • 1 year later...
On 1/28/2016 at 4:12 AM, IanL said:

@Placebo putting that into the manual might cause too much information for my brain for people.  On the other hand it would be good to have it available some where.  I wonder if the wiki is still active...

Being now a noob with about a month experience, CMxx really needs a long list of "pinned comments" that every beginner should read.  The proverbial FAQ.

lee

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2 hours ago, lsailer said:

Being now a noob with about a month experience, CMxx really needs a long list of "pinned comments" that every beginner should read.  The proverbial FAQ.

lee

Here you go. Read until your eyes bleed. Visine not included.

 

 

 

Mord.

Edited by Mord
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  • 1 month later...

I watched a video of Red Thunder and was very surprised to see this at about 43:49 into this skirmish. How come the German soldiers didn't see nor hear that huge IS tank earlier although it was only a few steps in front of them? There aren't any branches or huge bushes in front of them to obscure the view of that behemoth of a vehicle. That situation seems a bit too incredible to happen.

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I just loaded a third party scenario that looked to be quite good. It was on a very small map and located in a city with lots of Multi-Floored buildings. When I started to play I experienced so many LOS problems that I gave up on it.

I found it very odd as I had never came across such obvious and numerous LOS difficulties before. I have been playing CM for 19 years. 

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8 hours ago, Anxel Torrente said:

I watched a video of Red Thunder and was very surprised to see this at about 43:49 into this skirmish. How come the German soldiers didn't see nor hear that huge IS tank earlier although it was only a few steps in front of them? There aren't any branches or huge bushes in front of them to obscure the view of that behemoth of a vehicle. That situation seems a bit too incredible to happen.

A few steps = a metre/yard. I can't help think that it was further away than that. And they nailed it. So give 'em a cheer, not a whinge.

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I feel that this topic is probably a waste of time to discuss, but I'm going to toss some stuff out there anyway even though this entire thing is pretty subjective.  Basically what a gamer's expectations for spotting are might differ from how the game handles spotting and no amount of discussion is probably going to sway them.  With respect to the video of the IS2 - I'm not bothered by that in the slightest.  For one thing in game perspective is probably different from real world perspective in that items that are twenty yards away in game in a forest might look like they are on top of each other, but when seen in real like really aren't that close to each other.  Each action spot is essentially 8 meters square and that vehicle appears to be at least several action spots from the soldiers when they spot it - it looks close in game but go ahead and stand on an American football field and see how far twenty or thirty yards is and it might change your opinion of how close something is.  Another thing to consider is that 'real' vehicles might have a considerable amount of foliage tied to it perhaps even including full on branches and other stuff.  The vehicle models are all identical for any particular type and such foliage or additional things attached will not be represented for a variety of business or practical reasons.  You will just have to use your imagination for that.  Similarly all the trees of a specific type are identical in the game.  A map maker can change things up a bit by mixing different tree types but that doesn't alter the fact that every birch tree will look identical in game.  Anyone who has spent time on Earth and seen a tree will know that trees don't generally look identical in real life, so there might very well be 'branches in the way' but you just can't see them because the differences between individual trees aren't represented.  The ground the trees are sitting on are probably either light woods or heavy woods which adds some bush art to the bases of the trees - once again an abstraction.  I know that this probably isn't going to sway anyone, but if the spotting just doesn't work for you in this game then I'm not sure what anyone can say about it since it's not going to be changing any time soon, if ever, and contrary to popular belief military personnel and vehicles are not 'automatically spotted' as soon as they are in someone's LOS because - well it's part of life or death for them to try and avoid being spotted so troops actively attempt to conceal themselves on an active battlefield.  Those that can't conceal themselves don't usually have a long lifespan in a combat zone.

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On 10/16/2019 at 11:49 PM, ASL Veteran said:

For one thing in game perspective is probably different from real world perspective in that items that are twenty yards away in game in a forest might look like they are on top of each other, but when seen in real like really aren't that close to each other.

So you mean that huge IS tank isn't just a few meters away but actually several hundred meters away? Seems very strange that a game should work that way. It is still very odd that they couldn't see that huge tank and not even hear the rumbling of that huge tank while they're walking cautiously towards it. Must be the magic of the elven queens one can read about in Tolkien's books that are protecting the Soviets in that forest and making the Germans both blind and deaf.

Edited by Anxel Torrente
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23 minutes ago, Anxel Torrente said:

So you mean that huge IS tank isn't just a few meters away but actually several hundred meters away? Seems very strange that a game should work that way. It is still very odd that they couldn't see that huge tank and not even hear the rumbling of that huge tank while they're walking cautiously towards it. Must be the magic of the elven queens one can read about in Tolkien's books that are protecting the Soviets in that forest and making the Germans both blind and deaf.

No.  Nice job of deliberately misunderstanding what I wrote though.  Thirty meters away in game looks like something is very close when thirty meters in reality isn't necessarily as close as you might think.  That's especially true if you are looking through thirty meters of forest.  So you see, the distance is the same in game and in reality, but because of perspective that same distance might look different between the game and reality if you are someone who doesn't necessarily have a good grasp on how those distances actually translate to reality from the game.  However, I'm not going to waste my time on a discussion when you aren't actually looking for an explanation but rather are simply interested in grinding an axe because you don't like something.  There are a lot of gamers who don't like the way spotting works in the game and you aren't the first one to complain about it.  At this point in time though, since it's almost a guarantee that it will never change, you can either choose to grit your teeth and play through it or you can quit the game and play something else.  Belly aching on the forum isn't going to accomplish a single thing except perhaps to get like minded individuals to pat you on the back and say 'I agree'.  I suppose maybe that might make you feel better about how much you dislike the spotting in the game, but it's not going to accomplish anything meaningful in terms of how the game plays if choose to play it.

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4 hours ago, Anxel Torrente said:

So you mean that huge IS tank isn't just a few meters away but actually several hundred meters away? 

Maybe a misunderstanding................ ?  @ASL Veteran said twenty yards ............. not several hundred meters.  See below. 

 

On 10/16/2019 at 5:49 PM, ASL Veteran said:

For one thing in game perspective is probably different from real world perspective in that items that are twenty yards away in game in a forest might look like they are on top of each other,   

 

On 10/16/2019 at 8:36 AM, Anxel Torrente said:

I watched a video of Red Thunder and was very surprised to see this at about 43:49 into this skirmish. How come the German soldiers didn't see nor hear that huge IS tank earlier although it was only a few steps in front of them? There aren't any branches or huge bushes in front of them to obscure the view of that behemoth of a vehicle. That situation seems a bit too incredible to happen.

Cool video.  I think the floating icons were turned off in the video.  If so, that may explain why the tank was a bit of a surprise to people watching the video.  It is very possible the player had a tentative armor contact for the tank prior to the tank getting a confirmed spot.  It would also help explain why the player had a panzerfaust equipped team Hunting to that exact location.  I suspect the floating icons were turned off while making the video but the player probably knew some type of armored vehicle was at that location.  Just my guess. :)     

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it just seems funny how people forget this is a game.  It can't replicate the real world in absolute fidelity.  There are tons and tons of compromises to make it work and it is amazing to me that it works as well as it does at all.  So no I don't let the minor items bug me.  Like the gaps that happen in walls when you are  joining buildings and try to eliminate interior walls, that guys can shoot downward 3 floors in the interior of a building etc.  You can let those interfere with your experience or not.  Your choice but the limitations as noted by ASL aren't going to go away.

Wander on over to the Ghost Recon Breakpoint site if you want to see what happens when a company botches a franchise.  I haven't had much time to play CM for a bit, but lots of time in stupid meetings to go read forum discussions.  That one is pretty entertaining and keep in mind the amount of engineers they have writing code.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Ignoring a lot of posts, and just looking back on the OPs issue...

The game does not "ignore" foliage, but it does assume a bit more transparency than is obvious. It does this for a few reasons.

1. The game does not let you micro-position your forces. IRL, a vehicle could/would maneuver very slightly and gain a much greater LOS.

2. Foliage visual models in-game are very uniform. IRL, they are not. Plus, foliage moves, even in subtle breezes. The game makes leaves more transparent to model these characteristics.

3. Well, there's more...I'm sure. ;)

 

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Quote

 How come the German soldiers didn't see nor hear that huge IS tank ...

I recall (decades ago) Bovington Tank Museum took receipt of a mint condition IS-2 tank in trade for one of their vehicles. On starting it up they were amazed by just how quiet the tank was while running, especially compared to Chieftain. The German Leopard II is a notoriously noisy tank. Switzerland fitted huge mufflers to the back in an effort to keep the engine noise from reverberating off the mountainsides. One British complaint about Sherman in the Italian theater was the tank was too noisy for use as close infantry support. Especially the auxiliary motor used keep the radio batteries charged. Troops didn't want to be anywhere near Sherman because it would attract mortar fire.

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On 10/19/2019 at 2:35 PM, sburke said:

it just seems funny how people forget this is a game.  It can't replicate the real world in absolute fidelity.  There are tons and tons of compromises to make it work and it is amazing to me that it works as well as it does at all.  So no I don't let the minor items bug me.  Like the gaps that happen in walls when you are  joining buildings and try to eliminate interior walls, that guys can shoot downward 3 floors in the interior of a building etc.  You can let those interfere with your experience or not.  Your choice but the limitations as noted by ASL aren't going to go away.

Wander on over to the Ghost Recon Breakpoint site if you want to see what happens when a company botches a franchise.  I haven't had much time to play CM for a bit, but lots of time in stupid meetings to go read forum discussions.  That one is pretty entertaining and keep in mind the amount of engineers they have writing code.

 

 

This...every game I play, Steel Beasts, CMNAO, Jutland, etc. are all very complex simulations.  But they all have abstractions.  If there were no abstractions, you would actually be living the event.  I bet you wouldn't find much fun in that.  Its much more fun to come into a forum, misconstrue and misrepresent what someone is saying and vent in righteous indignation.

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  • 5 months later...

Agreed. LOS is ridiculous in many ways and I don't understand why they don't try ironing it out. You can't order fire through smoke, and all of a sudden a buttoned down tank has free LOS straight through a forest, spotting a gun that's 650 m away and has fired just once, having knocked out its target without it even seeing what happened.

As you've already guessed, my gun is all but knocked out by now. It's kind of ruining the game.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WXotnox777bzgwTx7

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This sort of LOS phenomenon has been noted since CM2 first came out.  It's fun when your unit gets to shoot like that.  :)    Not so much when it's done to your unit.  ^_^

We also see LOS issues when shooting down city streets and country roads lined with trees where there seems to be no obstruction when one eyeballs, but for some reason your unit can't see or shoot at the proverbial barn door that you are looking at.

This is compounded by the related issue when a gun's third ammo loader can see a target but the gunner cannot and yet can't move the gun or HMG a couple of inches so as to acquire LOS and shoot at the target.  We simply have to accept that CM2 is not a 100% WYSIWYG type game.

All of which have been noted since CMSF1 came out and so we have to assume it's a serious issue that can't be easily solved.  Perhaps in CM3?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Erwin
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