LOS Woes

[von Luck]

This shot provides some additional perspective on the first and another interesting long range ID.  Again we see a soldier spotting advancing Americans through woods, bushes, and wooded hedge rows.  Seems a little optimistic. 

 

von Luck

[AttorneyAtWar]

Yeah some of this definitely doesn't look right. I don't want to say its absolutely wrong but I usually don't get spots like these, what is your difficulty setting?

[von Luck]

we play entirely on Elite. 

 

von Luck

[ASL Veteran]

For the reverse slope no aim point - this is something that you should encounter pretty regularly so I'm surprised that is an issue for you.  From what I understand, that means that the spotting unit doesn't see the 'ground' where you are drawing the LOF line to, but the unit can spot 'above' the ground level.  So, for example, if you have a unit in a wheatfield you may not be able to spot the ground where you draw the LOF line to because the wheat is obstructing your view, but you can spot anything that rises above the level of the wheat - such as walking soldiers and vehicles.  So if you were drawing a LOS from your soldiers walking in the wheatfield to a tank sitting in that location or some kneeling or standing troops you would see them.  Just drawing a LOS line to the ground of a location outside of the wheatfield will always have the reverse slope tag because you can't see the ground at that spot.  So for all practical purposes you can't area fire to that location, but if something pops up your troops will engage it because they will be above ground level.  I mean, seriously, that's pretty basic stuff about how the game works and I've got to think that if you are having trouble with that then you aren't trying very hard to adapt to what the game does or how it does it.

I suppose in reality maybe you could make the argument that you would be able to area fire 'above' the ground level of that location but it doesn't work that way in the game so you have to work around it.  I have no idea if it would be possible to alter the game to allow for area fire in those situations, but perhaps you could make a suggestion and see if one of the BFC staff can give you an answer on whether it can be done or not.

Edited January 25, 2016 by ASL Veteran

[Pak40]

von Luck,

The issue with the LOS to the building is a known limitation to the game. As bulletpoint mentioned earlier, The LOS is calculated to the center of the Action Spot, and for some weird reason when buildings are angled to a certain degree the incoming LOS has trouble seeing the center of the AS. 

Unfortunately, the LOS calculations and targeting to an AS where an enemy is not seen, is to the ground. This is the same reason you can't target hedgerows across a field. You must be able to see the ground at that action spot. It sucks, but this is how it is. I wish it would calculate to the facade of targets instead of the center.

The pic of the aerial does not seem abnormal to me at all. The german units are positioned on the hedgrows and can typically see moving units on the other side of the next hedgrow. It's not as if the Germans are getting unobstructed LOS views. These are just instant spots of something moving and are usually quickly lost. Trees don't necessarily block much LOS but it depends on the type of tree. 

 

 

[AttorneyAtWar]

This shot provides some additional perspective on the first and another interesting long range ID.  Again we see a soldier spotting advancing Americans through woods, bushes, and wooded hedge rows.  Seems a little optimistic. 

 

von Luck

The armor contacts are probably sound contacts.

[von Luck]

For the reverse slope no aim point - this is something that you should encounter pretty regularly so I'm surprised that is an issue for you.  From what I understand, that means that the spotting unit doesn't see the 'ground' where you are drawing the LOF line to, but the unit can spot 'above' the ground level.  So, for example, if you have a unit in a wheatfield you may not be able to spot the ground where you draw the LOF line to because the wheat is obstructing your view, but you can spot anything that rises above the level of the wheat - such as walking soldiers and vehicles.  So if you were drawing a LOS from your soldiers walking in the wheatfield to a tank sitting in that location or some kneeling or standing troops you would see them.  Just drawing a LOS line to the ground of a location outside of the wheatfield will always have the reverse slope tag because you can't see the ground at that spot.  So for all practical purposes you can't area fire to that location, but if something pops up your troops will engage it because they will be above ground level.  I mean, seriously, that's pretty basic stuff about how the game works and I've got to think that if you are having trouble with that then you aren't trying very hard to adapt to what the game does or how it does it.

I suppose in reality maybe you could make the argument that you would be able to area fire 'above' the ground level of that location but it doesn't work that way in the game so you have to work around it.  I have no idea if it would be possible to alter the game to allow for area fire in those situations, but perhaps you could make a suggestion and see if one of the BFC staff can give you an answer on whether it can be done or not.

ASL - I don't have a bone to pick with most Reverse Slope No Aim Point's.  However very consistently in each game I play there is at least one that is completely bogus.  The example of soldiers coming under fire in the field was one such event.  In the American Civil War soldiers were known to have cut down corn fields with musket and cannon fire.  Could they see their opposition?  Probably not, however, that did not stop them from engaging through the terrain in an attempt to harass or otherwise engage the enemy.  Not every reverse slope event will fit this situation however they do exist and there should be some capacity to work around it.  I know that machine gunners would regularly engage targets they could not see in order to provide suppressing fire.  In this game Area Fire is a command driven event which would simulate such - having LOS down to the grass should not be mandatory. 

 

This Image is graphic but it provides an illustration of an even less flexible army overcoming a soft obstacle.

As for the Spotting in my latest screenshot the units identified with a question mark are sound contacts.  That the unit identified a squad advancing through all the LOS blocking terrain was more my point of the imperfection of the current system.  identifying a walking human target through hedgerows and tree's at a distance exceeding 300 meters across flat terrain is ... unlikely. 

 

von Luck

Edited January 25, 2016 by von Luck

[Bulletpoint]

So would you not agree that this could be made better?

von Luck

I fully agree with you. In fact, I just faced the exact same problem in a game against an opponent yesterday. It can be very frustrating.

Knowing the game's internal "logic" can help predict where the situation will appear. While it's not a fix, it can help to plan in advance where you can expect LOS problems  - with buildings at least.

[nik mond]

I would like to know if the AFV 's sighted were rotating  in place. Vehicles get penalized when they change their facing, perhaps simulating a plume of exhaust. And we're the infantry in possession of binocs. It's abstract but the numbers crunched would seem reasonable if these vehicles didany sort of movement thus giving up their concealment bonus.

[ASL Veteran]

ASL - I don't have a bone to pick with most Reverse Slope No Aim Point's.  However very consistently in each game I play there is at least one that is completely bogus.  The example of soldiers coming under fire in the field was one such event.  In the American Civil War soldiers were known to have cut down corn fields with musket and cannon fire.  Could they see their opposition?  Probably not, however, that did not stop them from engaging through the terrain in an attempt to harass or otherwise engage the enemy.  Not every reverse slope event will fit this situation however they do exist and there should be some capacity to work around it.  I know that machine gunners would regularly engage targets they could not see in order to provide suppressing fire.  In this game Area Fire is a command driven event which would simulate such - having LOS down to the grass should not be mandatory. 

 

This Image is graphic but it provides an illustration of an even less flexible army overcoming a soft obstacle.

As for the Spotting in my latest screenshot the units identified with a question mark are sound contacts.  That the unit identified a squad advancing through all the LOS blocking terrain was more my point of the imperfection of the current system.  identifying a walking human target through hedgerows and tree's at a distance exceeding 300 meters across flat terrain is ... unlikely. 

 

von Luck

Yeah, well you can't fire through smoke either using area fire.  It is what it is - a game limitation.  If you know what the game limitation is then you have a choice - you can either sit there, bang your head against the wall, and get angry and frustrated about it or you can adapt to what the game can and can't do and play around it.  If you fully understand and acknowledge the limitation and you can't adapt to it then I don't know what to tell you because posting angry missives about it isn't going to change anything.  The game limitation is a game limitation either because the code doesn't support a change or because making a change would be too expensive from a labor standpoint in the opinion of BFC.  If it is the former then nothing will ever change but if it is the latter then maybe someday the game can be improved.  Until that day arrives though you will need to either adapt or continue being angry and frustrated.  Maybe playing CM for you is like eating hot and spicy food?  It tastes good but it hurts at the same time? 

[womble]

...or you can adapt to what the game can and can't do...

Because there will always be things the game (it's a computer game remember?) can't do, or doesn't do exactly as you might hope.

Yes, there are things that can be improved. One day, they'll figure out how to put aiming/LOSmap points on for each window of buildings without it bringing the LOS engine grinding to a halt, and then the "engine limitation" will have been pushed out one step further. On that day, maybe all vertical obstructions will get "storey-level" aimpoints and we'll be able to target chest-high bocage that's "clearly" visible over the tops of the corn.

The "spotting things half a league away through umpteen layers of foliage" is something I've seen less and less of over the years. Maybe that's because I make more effort to use defilade, or maybe it's because they keep tweaking things. Foliage is a big negative for spotting, but I get the feeling that it's always "theoretically" possible, even if the chances are vanishingly slender; put enough eyeballs in enough situations where you have to roll that one-in-a-million, and you'll get the occasional spot where you go "hunh?" Mostly, the balance between allowing fortune and stopping unlikeliness is fairly drawn, IMO.

Wheat fields between bocage rows are no worse than a rising crest in the middle of a grass field. Avoid, or Slow move til your exhausted troops can draw a bead on enemy positions.

[RockinHarry]

This shot provides some additional perspective on the first and another interesting long range ID.  Again we see a soldier spotting advancing Americans through woods, bushes, and wooded hedge rows.  Seems a little optimistic. 

 

von Luck

What I see (and not see) from this screenshot.

A US infantry type unit is clicked. Composition, size and stance unknown. Also level of ID is unknown (is there individual US soldiers to be seen when moving the camera to this place?)

The lightly colored german unit icon indicates this the probable spotter, or at least currently the unit that has some LOS to the spotted US unit. The icon tells this is a reconnaissance type german unit. Composition, soft factors and whether it has binocs or not is unknown.

What also can not be evaluated is at what exact time the "spotting" and identifying took place.

What is the relative heights in the terrain of the spotter and the spotted unit. Does the spotter has a height advantage, so it could likely have LOS above the possible obstructing terrain?

The LOD terrain and foliage representation is misleading from this birds eye view perspective. At ground level and at finer LOD the obstructing terrain is most likely less dense as it appears from the screenshot. Possible spaces between trees and parts of bocage foliage can not be determined.

Possible info sharing occurances from neighboring units and any within the C2 structure.

Conclusion: None, for lack of given and needed info.

I´d check for exact time of the spotting (the second where the US icon showed up for the first time) and then check with the zoom function at ground level for what really can be seen from a spotter towards its target and vice versa. Off course works only in WEGO mode and if you either make the checks at once, or can load the execution phase from a save game.

Only then we have a base for any evaluation and further discussion. Otherwise it´s a waste of time for everybody around here.

 

[Pak40]

 

Possible info sharing occurances from neighboring units and any within the C2 structure.

Conclusion: None, for lack of given and needed info.

I´d check for exact time of the spotting (the second where the US icon showed up for the first time) and then check with the zoom function at ground level for what really can be seen from a spotter towards its target and vice versa. Off course works only in WEGO mode and if you either make the checks at once, or can load the execution phase from a save game.

Only then we have a base for any evaluation and further discussion. Otherwise it´s a waste of time for everybody around here.

 

True. This is like trying to determine if the ball crossed the goal line if you're standing on the other side of the field.

Also, your point about possible info sharing in the C2 structure is something that von Luck needs to be aware of (if he isn't already). I doubt that's the case from this particular screen shot but he'll run across it at some point.

[RockinHarry]

From another angle.  This MG could only fire on enemies inside the building after it had spotted them.  It could not provide suppressing fire to great determent of all units attempting to navigate the area.

Although it might look little "realistic", there´s a workaround for this and any similar cases:

Target area fire into the action spot just in front of that building (yellow arrow). Enough lead will be put into the area, with enough even hitting the building itself, so that any enemy unit in there will receive considerable suppression levels. Also works for level 2 buildings and up (supressing units in 3rd and 4th stories). You can´t rout a veteran, high morale unit in there, but normal morale regulars can be kept at pinned state and highly suppressed. That should do the purpose.

[von Luck]

Gentlemen,

 

I seem to have gotten some of the juices flowing and encouraged some thought into this matter.  Discussing and thinking about this is certainly better than doing nothing so I'll take it!

Now to provide some of my opinions on a few of these reply's

"its a game learn to live with it"  --  This attitude is something every gamer adopts.  Anyone who has ever watch a movie, a play, read a book, or played a game suspends their disbelief to enjoy what is happening in the portrayal.  I bring this up because, like crafting a defensive position, the work is never complete.  I am merely recognizing that there is indeed room for this to improve and encouraging discourse to further explore the issues.  Yes this is a game and it has limitations but lets explore how to mitigate those efficiently. 

 

Rockin Harry,

I hope you can trust me when I say that the fusiliers spotting the advancing American infantry were completely out of sight.  I'll endeavor to provide you with some context with shots from either side of the battlefield to underscore the difficulty of the spot.  But to better understand my dismissal of this you could envision a man with binoculars camped behind a hedge row.  Now this man is looking 300 Meters down range - relatively close all considered.  However his view is obstructed by several stands of tree's and a waist high bush.  Further down range an even taller hedge and more tree's make it nearly impossible to see anything advancing through all this mess.  That standing infantry target becomes a needle in a haystack amidst swaying leaves and branches.  Then remember that binoculars offer a rather small FOV and scanning the area before them is easier said than done.  Possible ... sure, likely ... considerably less so.  

shooting the ground is a predictably difficult maneuver for units.  That old familiar face of reverse slope no aim point really makes it nearly impossible to shoot at the ground any distance away.  It is worth trying sometimes but I would not call it a reliable work around unfortunately.  Area Fire being modified to allow for this would be a huge step forward.  Giving the command is very similar to ordering your units to suppress the enemy.  Whether they see them or not rounds are traveling down range to investigate for them. 

 

Thanks for the reply's and please continue to explore alternatives with this.  I think everybody has experienced some of these events and exploring workarounds might be an efficient way to resolve some of these issues.

 

von Luck

 

As a parting gift I give you Afghanistan "Corn Fields"

 

 

 

 

[MOS:96B2P]

I don't know if BFC can or ever will attempt to refine the LOS / LOF issue however the following are two useful posts.  The first describes the mechanics of what is happening and the second describes the tactics you can use when in the situation.     

<Snip> that means that the spotting unit doesn't see the 'ground' where you are drawing the LOF line to, but the unit can spot 'above' the ground level.  So, for example, if you have a unit in a wheatfield you may not be able to spot the ground where you draw the LOF line to because the wheat is obstructing your view, but you can spot anything that rises above the level of the wheat - such as walking soldiers and vehicles.  So if you were drawing a LOS from your soldiers walking in the wheatfield to a tank sitting in that location or some kneeling or standing troops you would see them.  Just drawing a LOS line to the ground of a location outside of the wheatfield will always have the reverse slope tag because you can't see the ground at that spot.  So for all practical purposes you can't area fire to that location <Snip>

<Snip> Target area fire into the action spot just in front of that building. Enough lead will be put into the area, with enough even hitting the building itself, so that any enemy unit in there will receive considerable suppression levels. Also works for level 2 buildings and up (supressing units in 3rd and 4th stories). You can´t rout a veteran, high morale unit in there, but normal morale regulars can be kept at pinned state and highly suppressed. That should do the purpose.

[SeinfeldRules]

A solution I've found to the reverse slope issue is to target areas behind the intended area... on almost any map there will be either a rise in the terrain, a wall, trees, buildings etc that will allow you to area fire at some point. As long as the blue line traces over the intended area, suppression should be accrued on the units there. AFAIK suppression effects occur along the entire path of the round, not just the aimed area.

[ASL Veteran]

Sadly the effects of suppression along the line of fire are nearly negligible.  Prior to the adjusted MG ROF I had set up an HMG and had it area fire to a point some several hundred meters away and I then proceeded to run a company of Italians directly through the LOF and the Italians barely noticed.  They did get a slight tick on their suppression meters but that was about it.  I think the effect was increased after that but it still isn't quite where it could be.  I believe that BFC has some ideas that may possibly be tried in future engine upgrades that would give us some 'real' grazing fire, but I'm not sure where those ideas might be on 'the list'.  It is one of those things that I really wish could be implemented and the ideas I saw mentioned did seem to be viable from a theoretical standpoint but whether those ideas ever get turned into code is anyone's guess.

[von Luck]

Having gradients of accuracy or suppression would justify allowing area fire to be more flexible. 

 

von Luck

[RockinHarry]

Suppression effects in the game appear to be greatest where bullets & shells actually hit the ground and within a certain diameter from the beaten AS. During my testing (see posting above) I found it interesting that suppression levels carry up within a building more or less equally, considering that (vertical) range to the beaten AS outside the building should actually increase with each level/story up and suppression levels decrease accordingly. That appears not to be the case. Can´t tell if that maybe has something to do with the supressed units belonging to the same formation (sort of suppression carry over through C2).

[Baneman]

... During my testing (see posting above) I found it interesting that suppression levels carry up within a building more or less equally, considering that (vertical) range to the beaten AS outside the building should actually increase with each level/story up and suppression levels decrease accordingly. That appears not to be the case. Can´t tell if that maybe has something to do with the supressed units belonging to the same formation (sort of suppression carry over through C2).

It's possible ( just guessing here ) that because the building is all in the same AS, all units in the building experience suppression because bullets are hitting "their" AS, despite being relatively safe due to vertical separation.

[RockinHarry]

Just made another test setup, again with a diagonal building but this time a level 8 one. I distributed 6 US scout teams (attached to a FO) from level 1 to level 7 (basement was left unoccupied) and again plastered the AS right in front of the building with area fire from a german HMG42, about 130m away. In scenario author test mode I played germans vs. US AI (with a ambush armor 75m setting, so they won´t shoot back) and checked suppression of the US units from the HMG42 area fire. US units in levels 1 to 3 got heavily suppressed (full tilt in suppression meter and partly pinned status), while remaining units in levels 4 to 7 were hardly bothered (1 tick in suppression meter). US units all regulars and normal morale.

I do not make any evalution from this observation, but this is how it appears to work with regard to vertical suppression range in this case.

[Bulletpoint]

Just made another test setup, again with a diagonal building but this time a level 8 one. I distributed 6 US scout teams (attached to a FO) from level 1 to level 7 (basement was left unoccupied) and again plastered the AS right in front of the building with area fire from a german HMG42, about 130m away. In scenario author test mode I played germans vs. US AI (with a ambush armor 75m setting, so they won´t shoot back) and checked suppression of the US units from the HMG42 area fire. US units in levels 1 to 3 got heavily suppressed (full tilt in suppression meter and partly pinned status), while remaining units in levels 4 to 7 were hardly bothered (1 tick in suppression meter). US units all regulars and normal morale.

I do not make any evalution from this observation, but this is how it appears to work with regard to vertical suppression range in this case.

Thanks for testing, but I seem to get different results. When firing directly into the first floor of a building, enemy units on the floor above seem to be not affected, or affected very little.

And in another test, even firing 75 HE from a PAK into the first floor did not affect the (friendly) troops on the ground floor. I think HE should cause suppression for friendlies as well.

My tests were not done with a diagonal building though, maybe there's some difference, or I made an error in my test? It was just casual testing.

[Baneman]

 

Thanks for testing, but I seem to get different results. When firing directly into the first floor of a building, enemy units on the floor above seem to be not affected, or affected very little.

And in another test, even firing 75 HE from a PAK into the first floor did not affect the (friendly) troops on the ground floor. I think HE should cause suppression for friendlies as well.

My tests were not done with a diagonal building though, maybe there's some difference, or I made an error in my test? It was just casual testing.

I think it's more likely because you were direct-firing whereas he was area-firing in front of the building - there would be a lot more bullet dispersion in his test potentially covering more floors.

[RockinHarry]

 

Thanks for testing, but I seem to get different results. When firing directly into the first floor of a building, enemy units on the floor above seem to be not affected, or affected very little.

And in another test, even firing 75 HE from a PAK into the first floor did not affect the (friendly) troops on the ground floor. I think HE should cause suppression for friendlies as well.

My tests were not done with a diagonal building though, maybe there's some difference, or I made an error in my test? It was just casual testing.

Area firing into AS outside building as said. My setup (like in von Luck´s example above) does not provide LOS/LOF to target the ground floor or building directly. Still most the bullets from the HMG42 hit the ground floor front wall, but not any floor above. Ground floor is empty/unoccupied and suppression from this area fire is distributed among units in 1st to 3rd floor, floors that weren´t hit by any the HMG42 bullets.

I´ll do some further testing with a setup not related to von Luck´s example. Could be the diagonal buidling offers some special circumstances with regard to its placement on multiple, intersecting AS when it comes to area firing. Some more tests with other type buildings will show.