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Russian army under equipped?

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4 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

It is morally just, however internationally we are still considered breaking laws, hence why EU and the US is sanctioning us and demonizing us(every day :( ), so this leads the Kremlin to new forms of tactics. Covert operations, and denying involvement in the region (Donbas) and arguably the Ukraine and US in some cases do exaggerate Russian involvement in the region.

"Its morally just for me to walk into this store and take jewelry without paying. The store owner and the police consider this to be breaking the law, so I'm forced to be covert about taking the jewelry. I have to change my tactics from 'buy with money' to  'smuggle under my shirt and don't get caught.'"

"Oh its still ok for me to do this, the guy who owns the store is Italian, and my grandmother was Italian so we're basically related. Can't steal from family right?!?!"

You have literally got to be kidding me. Are you for real? I'm not one to grade a nation/people on the tongue in cheek stereotypes made up about them, but you are enforcing every single one about Russians right now. 

Gotta hand it to ol' Vlad, if this is all a troll, it is the most elaborate long con I've ever seen. Just the patience alone...

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11 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

"Its morally just for me to walk into this store and take jewelry without paying. The store owner and the police consider this to be breaking the law, so I'm forced to be covert about taking the jewelry. I have to change my tactics from 'buy with money' to  'smuggle under my shirt and don't get caught.'"

"Oh its still ok for me to do this, the guy who owns the store is Italian, and my grandmother was Italian so we're basically related. Can't steal from family right?!?!"

You have literally got to be kidding me. Are you for real? I'm not one to grade a nation/people on the tongue in cheek stereotypes made up about them, but you are enforcing every single one about Russians right now. 

Gotta hand it to ol' Vlad, if this is all a troll, it is the most elaborate long con I've ever seen. Just the patience alone...

Of course you can interpet it that way instead of discuss in detail a true face of reality. You cannot use that and compare it to what happened in Ukraine, for many reasons I've listed. But anyways, lets use totally different analogies not pertaining to any similarity on the history of what happened in Ukraine. But go ahead run me by the stereo types.

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2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Hmm, please study on Kievan-Rus.

I fail to see the relevance. If you're suggesting that Ukrainians are Russians then you are wrong.

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Russification has happened. just not to Ukrainians.

So you're denying the things I listed actually happened!? To Ukrainians and many other ethnic groups in the former Russian empire!?

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

That's like saying explain to me why conquered Native lands of the US in school are educated mainly in English. And even then are not comparable to why many Ukrainians speak Russian. 

Native Americans suffered an injustice at the hands of the United States during the westward expansion. Because of this, natives are almost treated like a protected class by the US government (scholarships, lands designated for natives only, loose government regulations, some local autonomy of police, native-only social services, etc.). On the other hand, Russians deny everything that happened because it is an inconvenient truth and they were 'justified'. Yes it is comparable. Ukrainians were conquered in the same way Native Americans were: with guns.

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Just now, VladimirTarasov said:

Of course you can interpet it that way instead of discuss in detail a true face of reality. You cannot use that and compare it to what happened in Ukraine, for many reasons I've listed. But anyways, lets use totally different analogies not pertaining to any similarity on the history of what happened in Ukraine. But go ahead run me by the stereo types.

Sure, no analogy needed. Lets keep this real simple.

 

Your nation is a corrupt autocratic bully who has considered eastern Europe to be its playground since the middle ages. The current situation in Ukraine is just another example of  Russia bullying the smaller eastern European nations around it.

So a simple, no analogy version of what has happened: Ukraine, a sovereign nation,  ousted a corrupt leader who was the toy of your government and when that upset Russia, you invaded the Crimea and annexed it. Then you incited and covertly aided rebellion in the eastern section of the Ukraine. (You do it in this manner btw, to obfuscate your involvement because you know you stand a snowballs chance in hell against NATO if there was ever concerted demand to foil your designs) This is just another example of the Russian state continuing to act as if eastern Europe is its property. 

I think that about sums it up. 

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@JUAN DEAG

I'm not suggesting Ukrainians are Russians I'm suggesting we come from the same place, and obviously the Tsars have had horrible policies not only to Ukrainians but to everyone,  let's not call it Russification but the evilness of Tsars, why do you think the communist revolution happened... 

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3 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Of course you can interpet it that way instead of discuss in detail a true face of reality. You cannot use that and compare it to what happened in Ukraine, for many reasons I've listed. But anyways, lets use totally different analogies not pertaining to any similarity on the history of what happened in Ukraine. But go ahead run me by the stereo types.

You LITERALLY said yourself, that Russia is breaking international law and has been condemned by the rest of the world. I'm not "interpreting" anything. I quoted you VERBATIM. The 'true face of reality' is that Russia broke international law multiple times and then lied (laughably badly might I add) continuously about it. 

Don't like analogies? Ok, lets try something else then:

Russia illegally invaded a sovereign nation-state and illegally annexed territory of that nation-state. The rest of the world condemned Russia for this. Russia lied (terribly) about illegally invading and annexing the territory. 

That is the stark, "true face of reality."

All your little "details" trying to excuse this are irrelevant.

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What you want me to say we didn't break international laws? You can condemn us all you want and ignore every little event up to the Russian intervention if you'd like. You do know violent coupes are illegal by international law too? IF you will play with the rights of my people who've been living in your country for centuries I will defend them no matter what. There is no international law that can justify this other than morality. I'd also love to condem a bunch of countries for destroying the middle east. I'm sick of this attitude grow up and face the reality, Russia is not gonna let its people get abused like that. 

 

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2 hours ago, GAZ NZ said:

so the discussion of gear upgrades to me is also relevant to what they need them for

Interesting that you mention that. I just watched a new episode of Военная приемка, everyone's favorite Russian TV show from everyone's favorite Russian state owned and bank-rolled TV station Телеканал ЗВЕЗДА. This week's special was on camouflage. Oh boy!

Anyways, the show featured a new camouflage costume for temperate forest environments. It appears to be a spiritual successor to the ubiquitous "berezhka" suit. The show claimed it was difficult to spot through night vision optics and it apparently provides some protection from nuclear fallout. I don't know it looked pretty spicy.

 

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11 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

What you want me to say we didn't break international laws? You can condemn us all you want and ignore every little event up to the Russian intervention if you'd like. You do know violent coupes are illegal by international law too? IF you will play with the rights of my people who've been living in your country for centuries I will defend them no matter what. There is no international law that can justify this other than morality. I'd also love to condem a bunch of countries for destroying the middle east. I'm sick of this attitude grow up and face the reality, Russia is not gonna let its people get abused like that. 

 

International law doesn't even need come into play here. Your nation has consistently violated the natural rights of the nations in its region for hundreds of years. 

Your justification to invade Crimea or any other section of Ukraine as about as valid as Hitlers justification to invade Czechoslovakia in 1938 or Poland in 1939. Or your nations decision to invade lithuania, estonia, and latvia.

Ethics Russians living in the Ukraine are NOT Russians any more so than I am British or Italian because of my heritage from American immigrants. EVEN IF you had a legitimate human rights complaint against the Ukraine (which you dont) if does not give you carte blanche to invade them and annex their territory. 

Congratulations on your Hitler-esque justification for annexing other nations or parts of other nations. 

Edited by shift8

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2 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

You can condemn us all you want and ignore every little event up to the Russian intervention if you'd like.

Thats what I and the rest of the civilized world will continue to do. Russia's pathetic made up excuses DO NOT make it ok to break laws, annex lands of a sovereign nation, and kill its citizens. 

4 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Russia is not gonna let its people get abused like that. 

The only people Russia abuses more than their neighbors, is their own people. Your history is literally loaded with it. The very last thing I would ever want, is for Russia to "look out for me" or "defend me" if I was Russian. Between the Purges, Gulags, Famines (intentional or not- its irrelevant) Russia has really only ever been good at oppressing, harming, and killing its own people for its entire history. The claim that you are trying to "help" and "defend" Russians in another country is laughable to the extreme. How about treating your own citizens better for once in your entire history?

Furthermore, you have ZERO justification for "defending" people in another country. Some ethnically Russian guy was probably beaten up in New York City today. Gonna try to make up excuses why the VDV needs to paradrop in on the city and annex it in order to "protect ethnic Russians and Russian speakers?" No you won't, because you know you could never get away with such a thing, and you know how ridiculous that would be. But you think you can pick on your neighbors because they're smaller than you and cannot defend themselves. 

Shift8 was right, your government is nothing but the school yard bully. Except instead of pushing the fat kid in the dirt and stealing lunch money, you're slaughtering people and stealing their homes, all in the name of "protecting" and "helping" them.

Come to think of it, there's another leader in world history who used very similar excuses to justify his mad rampages. Something about German speakers in Czechoslovakia and the Rhineland, and Lebensraum in Poland. Hmm...

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1 hour ago, Sublime said:

well i AM AMERICAN. I dont kniw when I was a young kid in the early 90s there was a sh*tload of 50s to 80s reruns of everything imaginable on basic cable.stolen frm your neighbor ;)

Russian War Movies

I dont know a few. The one about the company in Afghanistan thats basically annihilated. Parts of the Soviet 60s epic on Borodino. 

I like German ww2 ones best. Stalingrad. Das Boot. Die Brucke. (OLD and obscure but good ant Hitler Youth defending a bridge against US troops.

Wiki threads

Why u surprised? Ive never posted there at all?

 

Also white tiger ( mehhhh )

And come and see which i liked.

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Okay thats whay you can believe in, unlike hitler I dont hate anyone and I support a defensive role in the crisis. A legitimate voting process where majority voted to join Russia, if you dont believe go do some searches on the internet. So dont come to me with "OMG YOUR HITLER" demonization. Quite irrelevant.

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2 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

I support a defensive role in the crisis.

There is nothing defensive about conquering land, mate.

3 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

unlike hitler I dont hate anyone

Maybe you don't hold prejudice but it's difficult to say the same for your government.

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1 minute ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Okay thats whay you can believe in, unlike hitler I dont hate anyone and I support a defensive role in the crisis.

Defensive? Thats what you call invading another country and annexing its territory? I guess the Russian military really is in dire straights if you've confused a concept that poorly. 

 

2 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

A legitimate voting process where majority voted to join Russia

Yeah, about as legitimate as holding a gun to someones head and then telling them they have a choice on whether the trigger is pulled or not. Oh wait you don't like analogies. Let me try again. 

You can't hold an election about annexing territory AFTER you invade it. 

"Hey France, now that we occupy you, want to have a vote and see if you want to stay occupied?" - Hitler, probably. 

Because that is totally legitimate :rolleyes:

5 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

So dont come to me with "OMG YOUR HITLER" demonization. Quite irrelevant.

Considering Hitler used the EXACT same justifications when he started gobbling up territory, it is relevant. 

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Just now, VladimirTarasov said:

Okay thats whay you can believe in, unlike hitler I dont hate anyone and I support a defensive role in the crisis. A legitimate voting process where majority voted to join Russia, if you dont believe go do some searches on the internet. So dont come to me with "OMG YOUR HITLER" demonization. Quite irrelevant.

Ukraine already made that decision back in 91. It voted to be independent, as did Crimea vote to be apart of Ukraine. The decision has already been made, and it is not the prerogative of your nation to bully the Ukraine into "do-overs" where the votes are cast by your tanks. 

Ukraine is a sovereign state. Estonia is a Sovereign state. Lithuania is a sovereign state. Poland is a Sovereign state. Your empire is over. Get over it. 

You dont have some kind of "jurisdiction" over your neighbors just because you you have some ethnic overlaps. 

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Playing devils advocate here

So if Texas decided to be independent as rumours abound 

Would the US accept that or would they put it down / bribe the senators or people in power opting for it?

Then Whats the difference to US states wanting independence and the "lobbying" there vs the Ukraine in Russia? 

Not much difference

you can argue about it all day long but its the same thing

Its all about power ,money , politics, media control and stuff that is not part of this thread topic, and nothing to do with the game we play

Im only interested in military kit ; unit strategy and the game kit which is why i read the forums

Im still unsure how your arguements above relate to having new gear

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, GAZ NZ said:

Playing devils advocate here

So if Texas decided to be independent as rumours abound 

Would the US accept that or would they put it down / bribe the senators or people in power opting for it?

Then Whats the difference to US states wanting independence and the "lobbying" there vs the Ukraine in Russia? 

Not much difference

Simply put, it can't. The US Civil War sees to this. States cannot secede from the Union. That, and slavery was abolished. Two good things.

If Texas voted to leave, and the vote passed, it would be considered a rebellion, just like the CSA was.  

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Once established, portions of nations states cannot legitimately secede. Unless there was foul play in the initial formation. Once self-determined: permanently determined. Otherwise the laws of the nation state would have no logical efficacy, and the state would continue to micro secede until you had anarchy. 

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32 minutes ago, GAZ NZ said:

Playing devils advocate here

So if Texas decided to be independent as rumours abound 

Would the US accept that or would they put it down / bribe the senators or people in power opting for it?


That's not equivalent to what is going on in Ukraine.  That better describes what happened with Chechnya.  The Russian answer to that was 200,000 dead civilians and installing a ruthless thug to keep a lid on things.

Ukraine is more like Trump becoming President and Mexico invading the border region, annexing LA, giving them the right to vote to join Mexico but not to stay with the US, then making war in other parts of the US while denying everything and yet claiming it is doing so to protect Mexicans from a fascist, anti-Latino ruler.

As for your original question, there's already a precedent for the US government's response... it's called the American Civil War.  Whether the Federal government would respond similarly now as it did in the 1860s is unknown, but there's no serious talk about secession so it's not really relevant.  Yet, anyway.

Quote

Then Whats the difference to US states wanting independence and the "lobbying" there vs the Ukraine in Russia? 

Not much difference

you can argue about it all day long but its the same thing

Not even close to the same thing.

Quote

Its all about power ,money , politics, media control and stuff that is not part of this thread topic, and nothing to do with the game we play

Im only interested in military kit ; unit strategy and the game kit which is why i read the forums

Im still unsure how your arguements above relate to having new gear


Obviously it doesn't :D

Steve

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2 minutes ago, GAZ NZ said:

Playing devils advocate here

So if Texas decided to be independent as rumours abound 

Would the US accept that or would they put it down / bribe the senators or people in power opting for it?

Then Whats the difference to US states wanting independence and the "lobbying" there vs the Ukraine in Russia? 

Not much difference

Unlikely to the max as I've mentioned before.

The first amendment guarantees the right of these alleged separatists to demand, assemble, and campaign for their independence. The very second they use violence they will be crushed because the US has the right to territorial integrity in the same way Ukraine has the right to territorial integrity in the same way that all nations have the right to territorial integrity.

 

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21 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

Considering Hitler used the EXACT same justifications when he started gobbling up territory, it is relevant. 

Exactly that.  Which is not surprising since Russia exhibits more signs of being a Fascist state than it doesn't.  And that too isn't very surprising since the differences between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were not all that big in terms of the overall execution of state policy.  The primary difference was the concept of personal property and economic mechanisms.  Russia's economy today is far more similar to Nazi Germany's than it is the Soviet Union's.

But besides that, the specific argument about "ethnic populations" and their need to "defend them" is absolutely identical to Nazi Germany's primary belief system and was the primary justification for both Poland and Czechoslovakia.  Like Russians, the majority of Germans were OK with this philosophy.  For a while at least.

The problem with using history to justify current actions is that usually history isn't so straight forward.  Are there ethnic Russians in Ukraine?  Yes.  Were they invited there by the Ukrainian government?  No, because there was no Ukrainian government.  So how did so many Russians get to be living in Ukraine in the first place?  Through a combination of incentives and force which was orchestrated by the Russian government to ensure that any attempts to break away from Russian control would be difficult, if not impossible.  The concept is, as has already been mentioned, called Russification.  A very nasty, but very effective, means of keeping an empire together.

Steve

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20 minutes ago, JUAN DEAG said:

My internet may be broken. How do I delete my first post? Sorry for the double upload.

I think it was a hiccup with the forum software because I had the same thing happen to me just now.  I removed your double post.

Steve

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