Russian army under equipped?

[Battlefront.com]

OK, let's get distracted by the Whataboutism stuff too much.  Anybody who has even a superficial understanding of the Soviet Union understands that it was a murderous and repressive regime.  One can make an argument that the world would be better off without the US, but even the most informed and intelligent person would have difficulty arguing that the world be a better place with the Soviet Union still intact.

As for why I bother... personally I like having my Western views challenged.  I also think Vladimir is a good person and, like Kinophile, I do not confuse him with his government.  I also have a pretty good (academic) understanding why intelligent, thoughtful people can be so supportive of a government that by Western standards is terrible to its own people.  By writing Russians off as a "lost cause" we only help ensure that they are.  While I have no illusions about what I, as an individual, can do... I think that doing nothing is not the correct path.

Plus, I know there's a lot of people reading what is going on in this thread.  It's hopefully proving educational for them as well.  The Western media has done a very poor job of documenting this war and the pattern of behavior.  But then again, the mainstream press tends to do a poor job in general.  But better to have a flawed free press than a state controlled one.

Steve
.

 

 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

8 hours ago, kinophile said:

Why do you guys even bother? 

I appreciate the extra info provided in trying to clarify/explain, but it's all pretty pointless in terms of achieving any real change in mindset or opinion, or even unqualified admission of ignorance/propaganda spouting. 

Just around and around and around... 

It's mostly frustration.  It's not like Russians are stupid, or bad people.  There is zero reason at all Russia cannot be both not in the Western orbit, but also a net positive contributor to the world at large.

But instead it's this cheering insistence on finding the decaying remains of the cold war, and rolling in it because that was GREAT TIMES and we should all go back there because reasons.   

[VladimirTarasov]

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Germany was at its height of power in the summer of 1942.  The US entered the war in early 1942.  It took Germany 3 years to get to that point and it took roughly 3 years more to get rid of it.  Germany was not even close to defeated when the US started to engage it.  And as far as motivation is concerned, the American people had no problem supporting two huge wars on both sides of the globe, concurrently, while also producing weapons and munitions so its allies (including the Soviet Union) could help in the fight to rid the world of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.  The entire population was mobilized and enthusiastic, if not fanatical, about the wars.

I know, that the entire population was mobilized and fanatical, I've studied on it. That's why I'm saying important people for example heads of states did not doubt the US forces when they came to the front. Germany was already being bogged down by summer of 1942, and their momentum on the Eastern front obviously was slowed down to a grinding scale. They had 80% of their army in the Eastern front, and throughout the war it just scaled down to 60%. However this does not belittle the western allies one bit, things went smoother for us because the Germans obviously had to concentrate also another portion of their army against the west. 

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Adolf Hitler - January 7, 1942

And yet, somehow it didn't work out so well for the Third Reich

Foolish man.

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

What do you make of this?  The West has been pretty slow to discuss it because it is uncomfortable for them as well.  Not that this is "news" to me because it was crystal clear what Russia was doing at the time.  The evidence, if one "researched it" was all there at the time it was happening.  Note the English translation here sucks, but it's the best that is available.  There's plenty of copies of the original Russian version out there.

Well you know, Russia has supported the uprising against the pro-EU government since the start. But if you'd like to see who started this whole mess I'll provide you a quick link that might open up your eyes hopefully to how this conflict started. http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12 John McCain meeting Oleh Tyahnbok far right leader, his group is very racist especially against Russians. Also the good ole Yatsenyuk. Threating the Ukrainian government that there will be consequences if force against these violent protesters are used. And yet again, if we look at the sponsors for the EU image, you will western interfering everywhere. The media supporting the EU image, are all backed by European countries. You can't just blame Russia for countering this. Sure, we could have sit and watch as Ukraine is taken far away from us, leave all the loyal Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine to their new government which they've had no say in. 

9 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

I think Russia's short supply lines do give it an advantage in some circumstances.  But it's the sort of advantage that only works if everything else is going pretty much OK.  For example, in 1945 Germany had the shortest logistics distances of the entire war since 1939/1940 and its enemies, on all three fronts, had the longest distances ever.  Much further than Germany ever had.  Yet it didn't amount to anything more than lengthening the war and causing its enemies more suffering.  It did not change the course of the war because by itself it wasn't the most important factor.

No you're right, If NATO breaks Russian aerial denial bubbles, logistics are screwed. And Russia has no hopes on being able to win the war,  if NATO controls the air, it's game over.

9 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

What Russia faces in a war with NATO more than anything else is massive, sudden attrition.  Even Russia's current best equipment is no match for NATO's in most categories.  Even when the equipment is good or perhaps even better, there isn't a lot of it.  Once it's destroyed it can not be replaced.  So very quickly Russia will find itself with lower and lower quality equipment across the spectrum.  No matter how many casualties Russia causes NATO, this dynamic will not change because even NATO's 2nd rate stuff is better than most of Russia's 1st rate stuff.

Attrition sure, however let's keep in mind NATO will have to break Russian area denial assets, and don't expect quick work done. Even if NATO achieves breakthrough (which is possible) they still have to worry about other factors. As in regards to NATO's second rate stuff being better than our first. That's not true at all, but of course countries like the US has more advanced tanks than ours in service, more advanced IFVs, ect. But Russia can still do some work even with BMP-2 forces, if used right. In Desert Storm however, Iraqi's got destroyed at the superior coalition forces. Our vehicles lack the advanced thermals you guys have, so indeed NATO does have great first rate stuff, compared to ours. But still, T-90As and T-72B3s can still pose a threat (well T-72B3 not as much as a T-90A) but we also have alot of non upgraded soviet vehicles like T-72Bs which obviously on a one on one engagement stands no chance against modern NATO tanks. I understand what you mean however, you guys do have more better first rate stuff, I cannot deny that. In combat mission, I never advance without making sure no pesky Javelins are somewhere. And even then I advance scared that my tank platoon is about to be teared up. 

9 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

All dictators have their supporters.  Many support Putin under the long standing Russian concept of "better with the devil you know than the one you don't" mindset.  But the problem with this is that Putin is still not good for Russia or the world.  And increasingly his actions on the Russian people are getting more autocratic and punitive.  The days when you could speak out about Putin and not have the FSB show up and harass you are growing ever dimmer.  As a historian I've seen this cycle before and I can promise you this will not end well for your country.  I feel sorry for you, but I also feel sorry for everybody else that has to deal with the messes made by his regime.

Steve, you do understand that we can freely criticize Putin? Why do feel sorry for us, sure I understand our economy got hurt badly but don't worry we aren't under a dictatorship  

9 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

"Whataboutism" at play here, again.  The facts are still facts... Russia is waging a war of aggression against Ukraine and is refusing to admit it.  You also refuse to admit it.

Steve, before we look at Russian intervention, we must look at the events prior to Russian involvement. For example, the coupe against the president of the time. Russia and Ukraine are tied to each other no matter what, well not so anymore. But whatever happened in Ukraine, effects us too. So imagine your ally being ripped away from you by western supported far right groups, that's a total geopolitical loss, and we basically lost our brothers our allies since Russian history.

9 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Of course there was more too it.  However, without Russia there would be no war.  Period.  End of story.  Therefore, the war and all of its results are 100% the responsibility of the Russian government.

Quite true, but all of this wouldn't have started if the west did not support the coupe in Kiev, and basic international rights were not denied to the people of eastern Ukraine. 

9 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

It wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last time either.  The US has been within its legal and moral rights to shoot down several of your planes for their activities.  It is irresponsible for Russia to tempt such things.  And blaming the pilot is crazy... these situations do NOT happen because of the decision of an individual

If it hopefully makes you feel better, I'm glad no one got hurt by the incident. And I hope no one does. It would be shame if Russian and US pilots were to die from a unprofessional stunt. However, I'm impressed that the Russian pilot was skilled enough not to make a freak incident happen flying that close. Flying near our borders without a transponder on is not a smart move by the recon plane.  

[VladimirTarasov]

6 hours ago, Sublime said:

Lend lease provided hordes of weapons and equipment especially when Russia needed them most. Never mind that deep operations would have been impossible without all those Western vehicles. Its just a fact. Your nation wouldnt have been able.to focus on weapons and leave hundreds of thousands of vehicles, food, logistical planes, and more advanced fighters until you got your own without the massive lend lease effort and thousands of Westerners who died helping Russia. And there was also the Iran route.

 The lend lease was very helpful indeed, and I'm grateful to the Western Allies for helping us in those regards, let's look at the facts:

• 58% of the USSR's high octane aviation fuel

• 33% of  motor vehicles

• 53% of expended ordinance in terms of shells, mines, and explosive ordnance.

• 30% of military aircraft

• 90% of railroad equipment

• 50% rolled steal, coil, lead ect.

• 43% of garage facilities (blueprints)

• 12% Tanks and SPGs

The lend lease provided this for us. The logistical boost it gave us is undeniable, however most of it was logistical help more so than combat vehicles. We could have beat the German army without it. But do not get me wrong, the lend lease helped us tremendously, logistics were hammered badly by the Germans in the start of the war. Without the lend lease, quite a few offensive operations might not have been achievable. In this regard, one cannot disrespect the Allies for helping us in such a manner.

6 hours ago, Sublime said:

And even if the odds were much more in doubt when Russia and England were alone, I say the Russians deserved it. You made a pact with the devil. Ww2 wouldnt have began the way it didwithout the Soviet agreement of a German invasion of Poland and then after  3 weeks snapping a third of the nation up.

Before you start disrespecting Russians for the Molotov Ribbentrop pact, let's look at the agreements the UK, and France signed. Letting the Germans freely do whatever they pleased till the Germans arrived into their lands. At least Stalin signed the agreement in an attempt to build up his armed forces to get ready for the Germans. So PLEASE do not act like the USSR had a say in what the Germans were doing. Look up the term "appeasements" on wiki.

6 hours ago, Sublime said:

Shall we discuss Katyn?

Shall we discuss the murdering of tens of thousands of Soviet POWs by the Poles after the Polish-Soviet war? Should we discuss the Poles and the Imperial White armies crimes against Jews? Yes the USSR has committed crimes, however you are looking through the lenses of one side, please also look through our lenses for once. It's as if all of Europe's hate is adjusted against Russia. It is quite frustrating. I for one am not denying what is true, yes Katyn was very brutal. But you also look over other historical events, and automatically look at the atrocities committed by one side. 

[Kinophile]

I think at this point we can safely say that yes,  the Russian  Army is under equipped with the weapons systems and organizational wherewithal it would need to defeat/stalemate NATO. 

It certainly has some effective systems, but not in the numbers required, at least until 2030.

Edited September 10, 2016 by kinophile

[Sublime]

Yes but Vlad once again its a whataboutism. The subject was WW2. The western powers tried to aappease Hitler and what happened to Czechoslovakia was criminal imo, but so was the westen powers fear and appeasement of Stalin breakin agreements made with the west almost as soon as they were made at the end of ww2. However Vlad appeasement is a lot different than an outright secret clause in an agreement that allows the carving up of neighboring territores including letting the RA "have" the Baltic States.

The fact is the sacred Stalin didnt have some holy deep seated  knowledge of his ineviteable death struggle with hitler. No he merely was wollfully ignorant of a threat and allowed himself to believe germany would get so bogged down in the west that he.d be able to just drive tk the english channel in the aftermath. He thought wrong 

 

P.s. " at least stalin took the time to build his forces etc" buddy the entire world was rearming in summer 1941. And how was he helping russia grow? By fueling ( literally ) and feeding the nazis amongst other things. So important were Uncle Joes shipments to the 3rd Reich that when they temporarily stoppped in Oct1940 Hitler and Goering demanded the ost freight on rails get equal priority as the wehrmacht doing whatever it was ( like preparing to invade the ussr) and also hitler made sure machine tools immediately began going back to the ussr as well at this time as per Stahel in his Kiev book page #s if you want them.

 

Of course Russia aggressively and ineptly invaded Finland at this time as we know too.

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by Sublime

[John Kettler]

VladimirTarasov,

Here, as far as I'm concerned, is the single most important effect Lend-Lease had on Russia's winning the GPW. "Without Lend-Lease, the Red Army would have starved." Nikita Khrushchev. During the GPW, he was Stalin's direct emissary to the Front commanders. As such, he was in prime position to know this vital truth. You may be interested to know that the highest US casualty rate during WW II was in our Merchant Marine, which had a higher loss rate than the US Marine Corps.

Regards,

John Kettler

[VladimirTarasov]

28 minutes ago, kinophile said:

I think at this point we can safely say that yes,  the Russian  Army is under equipped with the weapons systems and organizational wherewithal it would need to defeat/stalemate NATO. 

It certainly has some effective systems, but not in the numbers required, at least until 2030.

Depending on the scenario. The Russian army will not be driving into Germany, or Poland trying to take on forces there. However, 135K plus forces 2K tanks and many other assets can be deployed into Ukraine. Under heavy defense bubbles, NATO will have to focus hardly on those assets, and in what time? How long will it take for NATO to be able to have the forces it needs to destroy this 135K plus Russian force. As NATO builds up, how much of Russia's reserves will be activated? 

28 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Yes but Vlad once again its a whataboutism. The subject was WW2. The western powers tried to aappease Hitler and what happened to Czechoslovakia was criminal imo, but so was the westen powers fear and appeasement of Stalin breakin agreements made with the west almost as soon as they were made at the end of ww2. However Vlad appeasement is a lot different than an outright secret clause in an agreement that allows the carving up of neighboring territores including letting the RA "have" the Baltic States.

The fact is the sacred Stalin didnt have some holy deep seated  knowledge of his ineviteable death struggle with hitler. No he merely was wollfully ignorant of a threat and allowed himself to believe germany would get so bogged down in the west that he.d be able to just drive tk the english channel in the aftermath. He thought wrong 

What whataboutism are you talking about. Before the USSR signed the Molotov pact, the UK was already "appeasing" long before. Keep in mind, the Molotov pact is condemned in Russia. And Russia has officially apologized to Baltic nations for it. Anyways, my point was not if the Molotov pact is justified or not, but I'd like you to say the Brits deserved it as well, and not only say the 30 million Soviet people who've died in the war deserved it. 

16 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Here, as far as I'm concerned, is the single most important effect Lend-Lease had on Russia's winning the GPW. "Without Lend-Lease, the Red Army would have starved." Nikita Khrushchev. During the GPW, he was Stalin's direct emissary to the Front commanders. As such, he was in prime position to know this vital truth. You may be interested to know that the highest US casualty rate during WW II was in our Merchant Marine, which had a higher loss rate than the US Marine Corps.

Have you not read what I've said, the lend lease has provided tremendous help to us in terms of logistics, and even combat vehicles. I've even listed the help it has provided. The Red Army would have suffered from logistics without the lend lease by a considerable amount. Maybe misunderstandings?  

Edited September 10, 2016 by VladimirTarasov

[John Kettler]

VladimirTarasov,

I did read what you said, and I appreciate your acknowledging my country for what it did to help yours. I almost sent you a link to the master Lend-Lease list but held off. My fundamental point, though, is that while people argue about the relative contribution LL made to the Russian war effort via trucks, trains and such, it is patently obvious from the quote I posted that everything else is a side discussion compared to that one unambiguous statement Khrushchev made.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JUAN DEAG]

2 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Steve, you do understand that we can freely criticize Putin? Why do feel sorry for us, sure I understand our economy got hurt badly but don't worry we aren't under a dictatorship  

Walk outside and say and hold a sign saying, "путин чмо". I dare you.

 

You live in a country where a woman that likes a picture on social media that doesn't fit the government's dogma will be punished. http://nypost.com/2016/05/31/russians-are-getting-years-in-jail-for-their-social-media-likes/

 

This is also another good read. Russia got a press freedom score of not free, for comparison Ukraine got partially free, and the U.S. is completely free. I would recommend skipping to Part D Freedom of Expression and Belief.

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/russia

 

Western lies! Western lies everywhere!

[JUAN DEAG]

I concur with Steve, I do feel sorry for you. You're a victim of an authoritarian pseudo-democracy and I hope that one day you can live in a peaceful, prosperous and democratic Russia.

[VladimirTarasov]

7 minutes ago, JUAN DEAG said:

Walk outside and say and hold a sign saying, "путин чмо". I dare you.

 

You live in a country where a woman that likes a picture on social media that doesn't fit the government's dogma will be punished. http://nypost.com/2016/05/31/russians-are-getting-years-in-jail-for-their-social-media-likes/

 

This is also another good read. Russia got a press freedom score of not free, for comparison Ukraine got partially free, and the U.S. is completely free. I would recommend skipping to Part D Freedom of Expression and Belief.

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2016/russia

 

Western lies! Western lies everywhere!

Legally, Russians are obliged to freedom of expression. However it is a reality that Russia is not known for having safe journalism in the world. This is a fact, and issue we must focus on. Murders and attacks on journalists happen, corruption is still out there. But in terms of not being able to curse Putin, this is totally wrong. I know many Putin haters that openly speak about his mistakes. There are many anti government outlets out there like Novaya Gazeta, Dozhd, and RBK. Imprisonment usually happens when social unrest is being sought out. And in those terms, yes Russia is strict when it comes to social unrest. Freedom of speech is not as free as in the US to say, but don't buy into the over exaggerations. The Russian government has indeed done wrongful things in terms of freedom of speech for unneeded social unrest. Sometimes, this power is abused by officials. But this is more of a corruption issue. 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

This has well and truly shambled into things worth eyerolling at.

Re: World War Two

We don't need to debate this.  It's functionally irrelevant to the crimes Russia is committing in the Ukraine, and against world peace.  The acts of other countries, historical or ongoing are irrelevant to the wrongness of these actions.

Vlad's perspective on World War Two is about as rooted in reality as someone binge watching John Wayne flicks and washing it down with Sgt Rock Comics.  His country venerates World War Two and does not do serious study into it.  The absurdity of his statements are patently obvious to even non-western observers of his statements.  This is not two different opinions on the same topic, this isn't even two perspectives on the same planet.  

Or at the least, failing to understand the relevance of trains vs tanks is one that reveals much, and frankly the continued Katyn lies and justification ranks up there with holocaust denial.  The refusal of Russia to face its totalitarian past in an honest way serves as a good counterpoint to what Germany could have looked like given a armistice in 1945 vs total surrender, unapologetic, unbowed, and soaked in the blood of the innocent (who all had it coming!).

It's frankly repellent not even worth giving a forum or discussion.  

Re: Topic

It remains, Russia has a long way to go before it could reasonably challenge NATO outside of some very unlikely circumstances.  It may be impossible unless we see some very radical shifts in the world as we know it for Russia to stand a reasonable chance in a full fledged shooting war.

It's a shame that a war with Russia is even a semi-reasonable scenario for a video game.  The tensions between East and West right now are wholly manufactured by Russia, and western restraint has likely prevented a much worse crisis.  
 

[VladimirTarasov]

Here we go again with the false nit picking of what I wrote.

[Krater]

I'm sorry to add to the off-topic drift, but this excerpt came across my Facebook feed today and I thought it would be valuable to include.  It has nothing to do with Russian army, but at the same time - everything.

 

Quote

Vladimir Yakovlev
I was named after my grandfather.

My grandfather, Vladimir Yakovlev, was a killer, bloody executioner, chekist. Among many of his victims were his own parents.
My grandfather executed his father for speculation. His mother, my great-grandmother found out about it and hanged herself.

My happiest childhood memories are associated with the old, spacious apartment on Novokuzetskoy street, which was the pride of our family. This apartment, as I learned later, was not bought or built, but requisitioned - that is, taken by force - from a rich merchant family.

I remember the old carved cupboard into which I climbed to get jam. And a large comfortable sofa, where my grandmother read me fairy tales in the evening, wrapped in a blanket. And two large leather armchairs, which, according to family tradition, were used only for the most important conversations.

As I learned later, my grandmother, whom I loved dearly, most of her life worked as a professional agent provocateur. Born as a noblewoman, she used her origins to establish friendships and get her friends to speak honestly to her. Afterwards , she wrote official reports.
My grandparents did not buy the sofa ( where I listened to fairy-tales ) and chairs, and a bar, and the rest of the furniture in the apartment They just picked them for themselves from a special warehouse, which held property of Moscovites who were executed by NKVD.

Under a thin film of ignorance, my happy childhood memories were imbued with the spirit of robbery, murder, violence and betrayal. Soaked in blood.

Was I'm the only one?

We all have grown up in Russia - grandchildren of victims and executioners. All without exception. Your family didn't have victims? Must've had executioners. There were no executioners? Must've been victims. There was no victims nor executioners? Must be mysteries which you do not know.

There is no question about it.

I think we underestimate the strong influence of Russia's past tragedies on the psyche of today's generations. Our psyches. Until this day, saying goodbye, we say to each other - "Until next visitation", not realizing that the "visitation" is in fact a word used in prisons. In everyday life there are meetings, visits are in prison.

To this day, we can easily write in text messages: "I will write when I'm at liberty." When "at liberty".

Assessing the scale of the tragedy of the Russian past, we usually think of the victims. But in order to assess the extent of the impact of these tragedies on the psyche of future generations, you need to consider suvivors - not the dead.The dead are dead. The survivors became our parents and our parents' parents.

Survivors - are the ones who were widowed, orphaned, lost loved ones, exiled, dispossessed, exiled, killed to save themseves, for an idea or for the sake of victory, dedicated and betrayed, ruined, sold their conscience, transformed into executioners, tortured and torturers, raped, mutilated, robbed, forced to denounce, drunk from hopeless sorrow, guilt or lost faith, humiliated, having gone through famine, captivity, occupation, camps.

Fatalities number in the tens of millions. Survivors - in hundreds of millions. Hundreds of millions of people who passed on their fear, their pain, their sense of constant threat from the outside world to their children who in turn adding their own suffering passed this fear us.
In Russia today there is no family which does not bear the gravest consequences of atrocities unprecedented in their scale , which continued in the country for century.

Have you ever wondered about the extent to which the life experience of three successive generations of your direct ancestors influence your personal, today's perception of the world? Your wife? Your children?

If not, think about it.
It took me years to trying to understand my family history. But now I know better, from where my eternal irrational fear comes. Or exaggerated secrecy. Or the absolute inability to trust and build a relationship.
Or a constant feeling of guilt that haunted me since childhood, for as long as I can remember.

In school, we were told about the atrocities of the German fascists. In the university - of the atrocities of the Chinese Red Guards, or the Cambodian Khmer Rouge.
We just forgot to say that the area of the worst in the history of humanity, unprecedented in scale and duration genocide was not Germany, not China and not Cambodia but our own country.
And the survivors of the worst genocide in the history of mankind are not far away Chinese or Cambodians , but three consecutive generations of YOUR PERSONALL FAMILY.

We often think that the best way to protect yourself from the past is not to dig in it, not to delve into the history of the family, not relive the horror that happened to our relatives. We think that it is better not to know. In fact - it's worse. Much worse.

What we do not know, continues to influence us through childhood memories, through the relationship with their parents. Unknowing, we are not aware of this effect and therefore powerless to resist it.

The worst consequence of hereditary injury is the inability to recognize it. And as a consequence - inability to realize the extent to which the injury distorts our perception of reality today.
Doesn't matter what we see as a threat today -America, the Kremlin, Ukraine, homosexuals , the Turks, "lewd" Europe, a fifth column or a boss at work, or police in the subway entrance.

It is important - are we aware of the extent to which our current personal fears, personal sense of external threat - are driven by the ghosts of the past, the existence of which we are so afraid to admit?

... In the 1919, in the devastation and hunger, my killer grandfather was dieing from tuberculosis. Felix Dzerzhinsky, head of the CheKa saved him, by dragging from somewhere ( most likely from another "special" warehouse), a box of French sardines in oil. Grandpa ate them for a month, and lived only because of this.

Does this mean that I am obliged to Dzerzhinsky with my life?
And, if so, how do you live with that?

Edited September 10, 2016 by Krater

[John Kettler]

Krater,

I've read some really powerful, moving writing in my day, but this thing was a literary tac nuke--for someone who'd already read Solzhenitsyn's complete (loss for words) Gulag Archipelago and has long been aware of what happened in Russia after the Revolution!  Vladimir Yakovlev said so much, of awesome force and equal profundity and insight, in so little space it's going to take me quite a bit to process what I just read. And will doubtless reread. From the bottom of my heart I thank you for this!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

9 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Depending on the scenario. The Russian army will not be driving into Germany, or Poland trying to take on forces there. However, 135K plus forces 2K tanks and many other assets can be deployed into Ukraine. Under heavy defense bubbles, NATO will have to focus hardly on those assets, and in what time? How long will it take for NATO to be able to have the forces it needs to destroy this 135K plus Russian force. As NATO builds up, how much of Russia's reserves will be activated? 

What whataboutism are you talking about. Before the USSR signed the Molotov pact, the UK was already "appeasing" long before. Keep in mind, the Molotov pact is condemned in Russia. And Russia has officially apologized to Baltic nations for it. Anyways, my point was not if the Molotov pact is justified or not, but I'd like you to say the Brits deserved it as well, and not only say the 30 million Soviet people who've died in the war deserved it. 

Have you not read what I've said, the lend lease has provided tremendous help to us in terms of logistics, and even combat vehicles. I've even listed the help it has provided. The Red Army would have suffered from logistics without the lend lease by a considerable amount. Maybe misunderstandings?  

No im just pointing some things out becaude I know not from you but some.documentaries Ive seen that theres been a lot of revisioniam and whatnot in Russian history books where the Wests role is almost totally downplayed.

I dont think any of the dead Russian people deserved it Vlad. But the nations leaders and Russia as a nation? Yes. Britian and Russia are completely different. Russia let Germany secretly train in violation of Versaillea in exchange for know how and training as well. The treaty made them agressors and allies militarily however briefly with the Wehrmacht. You never can say the same for the USSR. At worst Britain was a negligent bystander while the USSR was perhaps not thr murderous bank robber to say but the getaway driver. 

Britain of amything deserves massive kudos for not caving and signing a treaty (all Adolf wanted) and to keep on fighting essentially alone in the whole world for that long lonely year that was june 40 to june 41.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

10 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Here we go again with the false nit picking of what I wrote.

No.  There's no need to nit pick what you are saying nearly as much as there's simply shock you actually believe some of that garbage.  The whining about Soviet POWs and trying to make some sort of equivalence between that an Katyn is intellectually dishonest and of course totally ignores twice as many Polish POWs were killed by the Soviet state during the Polish-Soviet war than Soviets by the Poles, and the fact Katyn is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of crimes against humanity committed by the Soviets against Poles of all walks of life.

Your ramblings on Lend Lease are fascinating.  There's a saying about amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.  The fact you do not comprehend how much having 90% of railroad equipment coming in from overseas meant (on top of all the other things) is frankly telling.  

We are not nit picking.  You're just saying things that are some combination of lies, simply honest being incorrect, and frequently deeply offensive.  

You have every right to be wrong, I just firmly believe it is a bleeding hole in global peace that you continue to be wrong dancing on the bleeding bodies of Ukrainians (and others!) who lay on a bed of the bones of your nation's other victims.  Your nation was wrong to have stolen Crimea.  Your nation is wrong to claim sovereignty over lands simply occupied by people of Russian heritage, and your nation is deeply wrong for pursing aggressive war and lying about it to the world.  Nothing from history justifies it, and if anything history only serves to cast this as why we need NATO, why Western Democracy must be guarded with sword and shield, and what is at stake if we let our guard down.

If the Russian Federation collapsed tomorrow all it would leave is bad memories and endless rows of weapons.  That is your nation's legacy, fields of tears and blood, rusty bayonets.  This should bother Russians more than it does, given what you can do when you're putting your efforts to things that are not ridiculous new ways to kill people, or rewriting history to suit.

You all are capable of such beauty, such art, great leaps in science, and all of that lays in the rubble and discarded while you kneel in worship over the weapons that only make you less safe, bought with treasure you do not have.

And that's all I really have to say about that for now.  Germany had to at least come to terms with what it had become, while you all erect statues to it.  

As to the original topic as has been conclusively shown, there's no reason to doubt the Russian forces in game lack for anything that might reasonably have in 2017.  They're actually quite a bit better equipped in many ways (as the US is fairly better off).  

[VladimirTarasov]

Before the locking of the thread comes, I'll move back to topic because this is really getting out of hand now.

2 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

As to the original topic as has been conclusively shown, there's no reason to doubt the Russian forces in game lack for anything that might reasonably have in 2017.  They're actually quite a bit better equipped in many ways (as the US is fairly better off).  

Yeah, in some cases the game over represents the Russian military. (T-90AMs, BMP-3Ms, BMP-2Ms) however it is fun to use those vehicles just to see how they would be if it were in service.

Edited September 10, 2016 by VladimirTarasov

[Sublime]

And it cuts both ways. Us aps. Us LWR. Oplots... when theres 10 or 20 in existence.

[Haiduk]

14 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Legally, Russians are obliged to freedom of expression. 

Best illustration of these words is caricature of Yolkin

 

[Sublime]

I think theres no question that the Russian Army could put up a fight but would lose against NATO. The only way I could see a failure is involvement of Belarus which necesarilly still doesnt mean failure, the US doing an idiotic ramped punishment campaign a la Rolling Thunder in Vietnam which it wont, or Russia using tactical nuclear weapons when it loses which frankly I think we all know where that would lead. The last, final, and most likely occurence of all this is something that I completely did not predict or guess at. God help us all.

Otherwise motivatiom or not you have a volunteer US army and at rhe very least the Poles, Balts and UKR. The US military troops would fight in antartica if ordered to. Happy or not. And frankly Russias slow creep as an enemy instead of showinf itself as an enemy suddenly has actually allowed even acerage Americans to start questioning things like political figures in America.s connection to Russian money.

More than likely we could count on Britain as well. Id like to say Germany France Italy and the rest are assured but theyre not at all. Only in a Russian attack on the Baltic states or Turkey. Wont happen if Russia somehow took over Ukraine i think a secret war with Poland with strong assistance from the Balts would occur with Ukr resistance. And i think Russia would lose patience and itd make or break NATO. But it wouldnt make or break the US. NATO could.collapse the countries I named are so fearful and hateful of Russia that combined with US  force projection and bases we wouldnt need NATO. It wouldnt be a cake walk but its not the 80s and if it stayed conventional I dknt see Russia in 2016 acception 100 or 200k dead. I think Russia if not threatened with invasion of Russia and especially if it took over the UKR would have a problem at home justifying a war and though the military would fight I think that once even US Vietnam war dead numbers were reached in 8 weeks or 12 weeks the Russians would end up crying uncle. There.d be hell to pay in America - we.d take losses unseen probably simce Vietnam and quick. It.d probably effectively break our.military from any offensive large scale action for a couple years. But the experience would.be invaluable and we.d survive it. And i thibk there.d be american recognition and public opinion of 1. Its a volunteer force. You honestly sometimes would think Americans at -the worst of Iraq amd OBL releasing videos and NATO in Afghan. - didnt even know a war was on. Compare this to the effects of draft and say Vietnam.The media is more controlled by the mil. Unlike vietnam.

2. The problem would already exist. Russias already seen as clearly in Ukraine and the bad guys in US. If they took Ukraine amd the Poles started skirmishes and commando raids or the Russians or both it.d get out of hand. Lots of Poles in America  even these days. Lotsa sympathy too if Russia went that far. And really America has let the superpower and only superpower thing go to its head for better or worse. So its not gonnna just let it happen even if UK France Germany Spain Holland Norway and esp Italy said no. Turkey too.

The US will absolutely act unilaterally even hypocritically if you think about it in that we made the UN.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Sublime

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

And it cuts both ways. Us aps. Us LWR. Oplots... when theres 10 or 20 in existence.

I think CMBS did a good job at including stuff that was futuristic and various degrees of possible, without making it FUTURE WAR.  Some stuff is more out there than others (T-90AM, BMP-2M, and Oplot in quantity are out there), but it's in a way that's pretty possible to leave behind if need be.

I think if there's anything that's almost/is a mis-step, it was the APS.  The US won't have it at all for a while yet, and the Russians barely have any operational for now and the short term future, and it sucks some of the fun out of the game.

But again all the APS can be left behind.  About the only quibble I really have with "future" stuff is I wouldn't have minded a "real" M1A2 SEP v2 (without ERA, LWS, or AMP rounds), M2A3 without ERA, and then some M1A1SAs and M2A2 ODSes to let us pretend the North Carolina National Guard has made it to the fight.  

[Sublime]

I exactly agree. Abrams are already plenty deadly id like era abrams with no lwr. I always insist on no aps. The russian doctrine alrdy is really atgm heavy and it being a game and losing some of real lifes inherent advantages to the weapons systems they have it hurts them. Alot. Especially in the abscence of a javelin or even top down attack hellfire missile.

And yes i believe bs was a very accurate and good guess. They have plenty of ways to go stuff they can add etc as well. There are no fictional completely fictional weapons. Formations yes. But entirely plausible if Ukraine focussed on bldg oplots and instead of the whole armata weapons system Putin had opted for the more budget friendly and rational T90AM BMP2M upgrade idea. Along with 2nd line units gttn t90as and bringing the rest of the army up to a t80u or t72b3 standard.

Getting rid of the airborne divisions in their current status and make them like US ones.much as pzsaurkrautwerfer described. Steve and he have a point the age of massive airborne drops is gone.  This isnt a personal attack on your service or the ability of the VDV Vlad.

Stopping the pimping out of soldier conscripts..( there was a genuine news article on ARRSE  Brit Armt rumor network about this )

Edited September 10, 2016 by Sublime

[Vanir Ausf B]

6 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Getting rid of the airborne divisions in their current status and make them like US ones.

If anything I would go the other way. At least the VDV are fully mechanized which gives them some mission flexibility (VDV divisions are sorta like large SBCTs if Strykers were air-dropable). The role of the 82nd would be relatively more problematic in a high-intensity conflict since they would not be jumping into it either but would still be light infantry on the ground.

I agree that in general the Russians are well represented in-game in terms of TO&E. There are some game mechanics that tend to favor the US a bit but most of those will hopefully be fixed in future updates.