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Russian army under equipped?


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16 minutes ago, Sublime said:

You also must remember the US has a very cheap compared to laser guided bombs bomb called the JDAM which the Russians as of now do not have a counterpart. Someone must be lasing a target for an LGB to be dropped therefore bad weather can hamper ops.

JDAMs can be attached to any dumb bombs with a relatively cheap kit and they utilize the GPS. So you can have a plane flying higher than you can see or hear drop a bomb it cant see that will fall and guide itself through cloud cover mist or whatever. Theyre remarkably accurate and also dont give a laser warning at all.

Russia has been using 500kg satellite-guided bombs in Syria and just completed trials of a 250kg version.

16 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Also for every Russian SU25T or Su34M that is risking AAA ( if they want to accurately use iron bombs you basicaly have to expose yourself to AAA manpads etc. No flying at 20k and calmly dropping LGBs. )Any return fire will hamper accuracy, and for all those planes the Russians also are using Mi35s and Mi24s to drop iron bombs. And theyre not even using proven techniques to improve accuracy such as diving or toss bombing.

Theyve been recorded dropping dumb.bombs from height flying straight and level. Im almost certain Russian helos ( US ones dont carry bombs ) dont have a bombing computer so thats essentialy barrel bombing with nicer bombs and helos.

AFAIK, dumb bomb use by helicopters in Syria is by Syrian forces.  But I suspect Mi-35M at least has necessary equipment for computer-aided bombing.

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No russian helos definitely have been been doing it..on camera. And its def happened in urban areas as well.

Thats all well and good there are Russian JDAMs. But by  all accounts the majority of bombs are dumb bombs with even with the latest and greatest US planes with pilots who have way more combat experience are nowhere near as accurate with dumb bombs than precision guided stuff.

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SVP-24 systems on Russian planes allow for dumb bombs 3-5 meter CEP at low altitudes where manpads can pose a threat, although the higher you go the system will have less accuracy. Russia has a stock of precision guided weapons, how ever if it were to use precision guided missiles in every sortie (over 10,000 sorties conducted) that would be a problem. 

Edited by VladimirTarasov
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14 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

SVP-24 systems on Russian planes allow for dumb bombs 3-5 meter CEP at low altitudes where manpads can pose a threat, although the higher you go the system will have less accuracy. Russia has a stock of precision guided weapons, how ever if it were to use precision guided missiles in every sortie (over 10,000 sorties conducted) that would be a problem. 

Its ok we're also running out of precision munitions...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/politics/air-force-20000-bombs-missiles-isis/

 

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Thing is, it tends to be poor form to use unguided weapons in urban settings for pretty obvious reasons. Unless you don't care about collateral. 

Edit: Relevant article just released giving a focused but shallow look at RuAF operations in Syria. Note that it mentions the loss of helicopters at that base as being due to an accident and identifies them as KA-52s. Ouch. 

 

https://warisboring.com/heres-the-key-to-understanding-the-russian-air-force-s-actions-in-syria-68aa3e4f8d0d#.7g5yrsezc

Edited by Codename Duchess
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28 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:

Thing is, it tends to be poor form to use unguided weapons in urban settings for pretty obvious reasons. Unless you don't care about collateral. 

Edit: Relevant article just released giving a focused but shallow look at RuAF operations in Syria. Note that it mentions the loss of helicopters at that base as being due to an accident and identifies them as KA-52s. Ouch. 

 

https://warisboring.com/heres-the-key-to-understanding-the-russian-air-force-s-actions-in-syria-68aa3e4f8d0d#.7g5yrsezc

KA-52s are only deployed at the latakia airbase, and Russian MoD still denies that this incident happened. There is no other proof about this incident other then some edgy satellite images. The guy is funny, Russian air force has been bombing civvies XD he never takes into account any statements given out by the Russian MoD and his bias against the Russian Air Force in the beginning of the article gave me a good laugh. 

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Honestly I can agree for the most part with the Russians in terms of civilian casualties caused by both sides, although the Russians are worse due to unguided munitions and what seems to be unclear targets. There are also allegations and videos of purposely targeting civilians which of course is unacceptable and they should not continue the Syrians government in doing so.

Although we just blew up a doctors without borders hospital late last year with an AC-130, and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq so this isn't black and white. Civilians are going to die in a war zone everyone whose posting on this forum knows or accepts that I would think, what matters is what each side does to mitigate and eventually stop it. Precision munitions are fantastic for this but humans make mistakes and there is no technology out there that can stop that.

 

 

Edited by Raptorx7
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Dude there's video evidence of them using cluster munitions on neighborboods and city blocks. I'll be the first to admit the US has absolutely bombed civilians in the past, but at least our government admits it. You seem to think that the RuAF, in 10,000 bombs dropped on Syria, 80% of which are unguided, has never killed civilians?

As for KA-52 vs something else that is hard to verify, but that those four black wrecks with rotor blades used to be RuAF is pretty obvious from the images.

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2 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:

Dude there's video evidence of them using cluster munitions on neighborboods and city blocks. I'll be the first to admit the US has absolutely bombed civilians in the past, but at least our government admits it. You seem to think that the RuAF, in 10,000 bombs dropped on Syria, 80% of which are unguided, has never killed civilians?

 

I completely acknowledged that in my post.

" although the Russians are worse due to unguided munitions and unclear targets. There are also videos and allegations of purposely targeting civilians which of course is unacceptable and they should not continue helping the Syrian government in doing so."

When I said I agree with the Russians on civilian casualties I meant that both sides are guilty of it that's all.

Edited by Raptorx7
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49 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:

Dude there's video evidence of them using cluster munitions on neighborboods and city blocks. I'll be the first to admit the US has absolutely bombed civilians in the past, but at least our government admits it. You seem to think that the RuAF, in 10,000 bombs dropped on Syria, 80% of which are unguided, has never killed civilians?

As for KA-52 vs something else that is hard to verify, but that those four black wrecks with rotor blades used to be RuAF is pretty obvious from the images.

Sure I won't deny there have been civvies killed(not as much as claimed by rebel groups in Syria) by RuAF strikes, but none of them purposely as stated by a lot of media sources. Like I said SVP-24 has a CEP of 3-5 meters for what is considered to be "low" altitude. But let's face it, terrorists/bandits/rebels have strongholds in urban areas where civvies are. And often times, they are held there on purpose.

KA-52s weren't deployed to T-4 airbase as far as I know, and I've been following upon these events since the beginning. There were MI-35s deployed there, but no other attack helicopter types. If the base incident was legitimate you wouldn't be able to hide the casualties caused by that incident. According to those images a logistics place was hit too and that would cause dozens of deaths if true. 

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I don't believe that Russians are intentionally bombing civilians either and I don't think anyone here does. I do believe they're not able to avoid it though based on level bombing with big dumb bombs often with cluster munitions. 

I have literally used US Navy CCIP and CCRP dumb bombing functions and am aware of their limitations and capabilities. It's reasonable to assume that Russian systems are, at best, on par (physics knows no political boundaries). Your best results are low and in a dive which you don't see a lot of Russians doing, again by your own admission as well as evidence provided by Russian and independent sources. There's official Russian footage of medium altitude level bombing with unguided munitions. This is in fact the bulk of what we have seen. You won't see 3-5m CEP at that altitude at that configuration. Hell it's hard to get that in a low dive in a training environment. Russian TGP footage shows plenty of bombs seeming to miss what is an obvious target (or your pilots don't like to center the TGP on their target which defeats the purpose).

All the ballistics computers in the world can't change physics, and they won't beat laser/GPS/GLONASS level of precision, ever. You'll note 3-5m is given as the CEP for those guidance systems, even if in practice it can be better.

As for the helicopter base attack, the satellite images are pretty conclusive something happened, definitely to the flight line and to a storage area. Whether they were Hinds or KA-52s isn't super important in that both are a not insignificant blow. As for no reports of casualties, the Russian government has done a pretty good job in the much bigger involvement in Ukraine so it wouldn't be hard to hide them in a remote semi-official base in Syria. Alternatively, there could very well be none. The helicopters were almost certainly unmanned and if it was a dull moment (say at night) there might not have been anyone in the logistics depot.

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6 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:

As for the helicopter base attack, the satellite images are pretty conclusive something happened, definitely to the flight line and to a storage area. Whether they were Hinds or KA-52s isn't super important in that both are a not insignificant blow. As for no reports of casualties, the Russian government has done a pretty good job in the much bigger involvement in Ukraine so it wouldn't be hard to hide them in a remote semi-official base in Syria. Alternatively, there could very well be none. The helicopters were almost certainly unmanned and if it was a dull moment (say at night) there might not have been anyone in the logistics depot.

Yeah KA-52's are especially rare if those actually were destroyed, you can almost count the amount of serviceable Ka-52's in the Russian air force on two hands.

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35 minutes ago, Codename Duchess said:

I don't believe that Russians are intentionally bombing civilians either and I don't think anyone here does. I do believe they're not able to avoid it though based on level bombing with big dumb bombs often with cluster munitions. 

I have literally used US Navy CCIP and CCRP dumb bombing functions and am aware of their limitations and capabilities. It's reasonable to assume that Russian systems are, at best, on par (physics knows no political boundaries). Your best results are low and in a dive which you don't see a lot of Russians doing, again by your own admission as well as evidence provided by Russian and independent sources. There's official Russian footage of medium altitude level bombing with unguided munitions. This is in fact the bulk of what we have seen. You won't see 3-5m CEP at that altitude at that configuration. Hell it's hard to get that in a low dive in a training environment. Russian TGP footage shows plenty of bombs seeming to miss what is an obvious target (or your pilots don't like to center the TGP on their target which defeats the purpose).

All the ballistics computers in the world can't change physics, and they won't beat laser/GPS/GLONASS level of precision, ever. You'll note 3-5m is given as the CEP for those guidance systems, even if in practice it can be better.

As for the helicopter base attack, the satellite images are pretty conclusive something happened, definitely to the flight line and to a storage area. Whether they were Hinds or KA-52s isn't super important in that both are a not insignificant blow. As for no reports of casualties, the Russian government has done a pretty good job in the much bigger involvement in Ukraine so it wouldn't be hard to hide them in a remote semi-official base in Syria. Alternatively, there could very well be none. The helicopters were almost certainly unmanned and if it was a dull moment (say at night) there might not have been anyone in the logistics depot.

Ukraine is a bit different compared to Syria, there would be no point in hiding these casualties in Syria. Plus all the Syrian sources I've went through have denied the incident as well. And honestly, looking at the SAT pics it is very odd how the impacts are in the areas that matter. And there isn't any more dispersion. 

 

29 minutes ago, Raptorx7 said:

Yeah KA-52's are especially rare if those actually were destroyed, you can almost count the amount of serviceable Ka-52's in the Russian air force on two hands.

there are more than 10 KA-52s in service with the RuAF. 

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18 minutes ago, VladimirTarasov said:

Ukraine is a bit different compared to Syria, there would be no point in hiding these casualties in Syria. Plus all the Syrian sources I've went through have denied the incident as well. And honestly, looking at the SAT pics it is very odd how the impacts are in the areas that matter. And there isn't any more dispersion.

The article I posted as well as one from RT citing a source on base (as reported by RIA Novosti) says it was an accident/fuel fire that occurred during a mortar attack, which would make sense given the level of precision and obvious signs of fire.  US intelligence officials also reported that an accident was suspected as opposed to an attack.  Personally I think that the truth is somewhere in the middle, but I believe enough information exists to confirm that four helicopters and a handful of trucks were indeed lost at that airfield sometime between 14May and 17May.

Edited by Codename Duchess
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19 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

SVP-24 systems on Russian planes allow for dumb bombs 3-5 meter CEP at low altitudes where manpads can pose a threat, although the higher you go the system will have less accuracy. Russia has a stock of precision guided weapons, how ever if it were to use precision guided missiles in every sortie (over 10,000 sorties conducted) that would be a problem. 

3-5 meters can be VERY significant if you want to hit a specific bldg bridge or bunker. Just sayn.

 

**truat me Im a military aviator just like Duchess. Ill admit hes got me beat on carrier landings but thiugh I dont waste my time really flying  I can fly more planes in DCS than the one type ( F18 ) he flies in real life 

So im obviously the expert here =p

 

 

***this thread makes me wish dcs blackshark 2 was ka52

Edited by Sublime
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9 minutes ago, Sublime said:

3-5 meters can be VERY significant if you want to hit a specific bldg bridge or bunker. Just sayn.

 

**truat me Im a military aviator just like Duchess. Ill admit hes got me beat on carrier landings but thiugh I dont waste my time really flying  I can fly more planes in DCS than the one type ( F18 ) he flies in real life 

So im obviously the expert here =p

DCS F-18 is coming out this year I am freaking hyped man, Duchess should train us up on it when it comes out!

;)

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Ya thats a def buy. So is the F5. The mirage and gazelle were VERY hard not to buy.

Knowing the campaigns arent ready really helped. The dynamic mig 21 campaign is rlly kinda messd up now aa far as txts and its an obvious mod buts beautiful and shows it CAN be done... can u imagine dynamic campaigns in DCS? Like for real ones not mods for everyplane?

I gotta admit Im more looking forward to the F14 than 18 though.i really hope we see the now anciently promised Ah1 cobra and an mi24 would be nice. The p47 and spitfire are probably definite buys.

Im trying to force myself to really train up on thr ka5o  since i bought the darn model. I just dont likethe bird. I can fly a huey better and it has basically none of the ka50 instruments. I really love flying the huey and p51. Also the regulars -a10 f15 mig29 su27 su25 mig29 mig21.

I didnt buy some modules.. i really wish theyd also update the mig29 flight model like half the rest the flaming ciffs 3 planes.

 

 

 

****also interesting that at least in game the Russian Su27 can only drop all bombs at once? Is this realistic?

Edited by Sublime
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