Quick Maps vs Scenariios

[Canada Guy]

I have developed a few quick maps in the past but I must be missing something as anything that I create does not seem to work.

1. Create map (including terrain objectives) and put it into quick map folder

2. run game and select quickmap

3. Opponent just sits there and does not move towards VP locations

So do you have to do anything to trigger the tactical AI to react? I have created terrain objectives for both sides but the AI just sits in his set up zone not moving. I have looked at other quickmaps and have used those as a basis for to create my own quickmaps, adding another terrain objective and they still only go towards the original objectives.

Using Open-Rough Meet 036, I am looking at the AI plan and there is only 1 for the axis but it has no relation to the actual terrain objective. Hence, it is not directing the axis units to occupy the terrain. It is just showing support targets and highlighting some of the set up zone. Does the quickmap designer need to show the AI that it needs to do something to win? Am I not doing something for a quickmap? I know that scenarios need a full AI plan but do quickmaps as well?

There would be a few nice things to have for us working on maps/scenarios

1. A quick-flow showing what needs to be done to complete the map/scenario. Right now I am missing something but I do not know what I am missing and why it does not work.

2. In the editor, it should show you the name of the map you are looking at. Many times I load a map and have idea (but have forgotten the exact name) which I am looking at. I try to load a different map and and up reloading the same one. Very frustrating. (This goes for picking a map in quick battles as well - The name is not descriptive enough that I must end up trying to load a quick battle many times as I do not get the map that I want and then end up trying again and end up with the same friggen map!! - frustrating)

3. Can you add default units as a starting point for quick battle maps without creating a scenario. I would like to have 5 x PzVDs on my quick battle map for anyone that ever plays it (mostly me) I am creating and then have an all infantry choice. This makes for a better balance in scenario instead of putting mixed (which usually just chooses all tanks). Without having the abilty to  set 50% infantry 20% tanks etc. It creates a better balance. But I added some default units to a quickmap but when I played it, they disappeared and I ended up with only infantry. And in scenarios, you cannot choose extra units so how can you put some fixed units and have some choice?

[A Canadian Cat]

You need to add AI plans. Have a look at an existing QB map but this time look at the AI plans.

The tac AI is used by both the player and the AI and its job is to control the individual soldiers and find them cover, targets and decide if the should cower or run when things go bad etc. 

The player issues orders to get them to move towards the objectives. Similarly the AI needs an ai plan to get them moving to the objectives.

[MarkEzra]

Hi Canada Guy:  I'm the guy responsible for CMRT QB Maps.  I looked at the Open-Rough Meet 036 Map. The Objective is a Huge "I" shape that covers a very large portion of the map.  The AI pathing would be hard pressed to miss hitting the objective.  But as I look at that map I cringe. The work I've produced for CMFB is a whole other level altogether. 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Nothing cringe worthy in RT, I've enjoyed the hell out of those QB maps.

Even better one's make me look all the more forward to FB, though.

[MikeyD]

A small piece of advice on doing QB AI plans. Think like a player. Don't just give one generic set of movement orders to the objective. A human player would never roll forward down the middle of a map without looking for cover. Select intermediate destinations with cover and terrain features in mind. You know, like a real player would do. Whether the AI's going to be for infantry or armor, defilade is still defilade.

[Boomkow]

If I am picking forces for a QB, should I assign specific AI groups like A1, A2, A3, etc?

[MarkEzra]

I assume you are speaking of an human vs AI QB match.

Once a human player picks the AI forces all control of placement and orders is handled by the AI.

Edited January 14, 2016 by MarkEzra
clarity

[Boomkow]

I assume you are speaking of an human vs AI QB match.

Once a human player picks the AI forces all control of placement and orders is handled by the AI.

In the QB force selection screen, I choose the AI's forces and assign each group a Group number. I just want the AI to attack or defend without a massive clutter of everything they have.

[MarkEzra]

Well you learn something every day. I normally allow the AI total control of selection units. How do you know how many slots are available?

[Boomkow]

I checked the QB maps in the editor. If I like the plan, I will use it. Kind of ruins the fog of war, but generally you need to know what the enemy force composition is.

[Boomkow]

For instance, I am testing my theory on a medium probe QB with the Holland Elst Town Probe 021.btt

And there are two separate forces attacking. With the scenario editor mode on I can see that A2 is attacking over an open field and A1 is attacking through the town.

[A Canadian Cat]

Wait are you saying, @Boomkow, that in the QB force selection screen I can assign AI groups myself? And they are respected in the QB battle?

[MarkEzra]

@IanL  I'm gonna do some testing on this.

@Boomkow. CMFB QB maps have a larger number and more uniform method of group orders. 

[Boomkow]

@MarkEzra I have noticed occasionally in QB testing that sometimes the AI is ignoring my Group assignments. In those cases, it still assigns groups just not to the units I dictated.

[MarkEzra]

Indeep During Human purchase of the AI forces a player can use the editor  F1-F9. Group commands!  So I tried two test:

  The first map offered 8 specific group setups.  I selected a platoon and broke them into  2,3,8 groups (avoiding the default group 1) and ended up with all units setup in Group 7 (notice I did not select that order group)  So I did another Map with 5 groups and purchased a company and used group 1 and 2 .  All units again want to just one group...4!  What bothers me most is that all units went to just one group setup.  

I test each QB to make sure group setups and orders are functional and always note the AI tries to fill the setup groups.  So these results seem to be a negative unintended consequence.  I'll leave you to be the judge as it's your choice/style of play.

[Boomkow]

Indeep During Human purchase of the AI forces a player can use the editor  F1-F9. Group commands!  So I tried two test:

  The first map offered 8 specific group setups.  I selected a platoon and broke them into  2,3,8 groups (avoiding the default group 1) and ended up with all units setup in Group 7 (notice I did not select that order group)  So I did another Map with 5 groups and purchased a company and used group 1 and 2 .  All units again want to just one group...4!  What bothers me most is that all units went to just one group setup.  

I test each QB to make sure group setups and orders are functional and always note the AI tries to fill the setup groups.  So these results seem to be a negative unintended consequence.  I'll leave you to be the judge as it's your choice/style of play.

So maybe I misunderstood what was happening. In actuality the AI is still deciding on the groups and setup. I hope that Battlefront will continue to add or change the QB AI force selection and placement so that it utilizes AT guns, tanks, IFVs, and infantry in a more believable manner.

[MarkEzra]

AI Force selection and AI orders are a QB Priority for all of us.  I have a number of wishes involving arty/mines/wire/and pill box setups too. I can assure you that BFC is very aware of players wish list. 

[Canada Guy]

OK, so I created a map, and added some AI but the Soviets just sit there. Is there a design manual that tells me how the AI design works? (I am about to read The Sheriff of Oosterbeek – A Scenario Design DAR/AAR but wanted to know if there were more)

Also

1. Is it possible in a quick map to buy and add reinforcements? I want to have an all infantry Quick battle (I and the computer each have the ability to buy forces for the battle to add some uncertainty to each quick battle) but I want to have both the Russians and Germans have a platoon of tanks as reinforcements 5 minutes into the quick battle. I did buy reinforcements and assigned them an appearance 5 minutes into the battle but they never showed up.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Canada Guy

[Canada Guy]

Si, I have a little better handle on this scenario design than I used to.

My opponent now moves and in fact, I created a Soviet attack and it beat me. (I think this has been the first time that I have been beaten by the AI)

The one condition though that I had that I have not seemed to figure out is 'exit'. I created a victory objective as exit but his troops just gathered there and did not disappear off the map and he received no points for exiting. Is there a special thing you need to do in order for the AI to exit off the map and get victory points for that exit?

[MikeyD]

In this talk about QBs vs Scenarios bear in mind that it's possible to do a 'hybrid'. Import a QB map you like into the editor, select the forces you want and tweak the standing AI instruction how you want. Then rename and resave as a proper scenario. If you're worried about losing the element of surprise you could try doing a batch of 'hybrid' scenarios together then letting them sit for a few days til your recollection of who is facing what gets cloudy.

This might be the easiest way to introduce yourself to the editor. Soon you'll be reassigning victory locations, adding additional building clusters or redirecting roads, getting creative with force composition. Eventually you'll drop the QB map imports entirely and strike out on your own.

[Canada Guy]

So what setting do I need to set in order for the units to exit the map from an exit point in a quick battle? Is there one?

I do like your idea of creating scenarios but I wish there was more of a hybrid - reinforcements or a set of fixed units in a QB game. Say have an infantry only battle which you would pick your units (or have the computer do it) but have a tank platoon arrive 5-10 minutes in. This way, you could avoid the computer picking a terrible set of units (like all tanks or all infantry) and still have more of a balanced force. Or alternatively, have a max percentage that the computer can use towards each category.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Canada Guy

[MarkEzra]

All VP revert to "occupy".../so no exit QB game

[kevinkin]

@MickeyD and all

The hybrid idea was used as a means to leverage the nice CMRT QB maps for proper scenarios for the winter mod that was released back in January. By using the pre-made maps a lot of time was saved. Plus standard OOBs can be included for folks who like those and not so much the OOBs the QB system can sometimes create. It can be tedious to re program the AI and prepare new objectives. But it is pretty quick. For guys who need lots of content for H2H games, hybrids can provide a efficient way to produce (mostly) hypothetical missions. A third party could make a "custom QB" for two players based on their specs while maintaining FOW. 

Kevin