BETA AAR- Spoiler- Discussion Thread

[slysniper]

I don't think that it is the power/protection of the Jagdtiger that is the only reason for Bils current situation...

I think he did a misstake with his initial advance on his left flank. He left good reverse slope possitions and advanced into a not fully ID:ed enemy possition.

Something that in my oppinion was quite unneccesary.

It would have been better to let Baneman do the advancing and wait for him to come across the crest of that first ridge or through Coburn and deal with them...many on few.

Using his scouts to observe Banemans movements and possition his armour accordingly.

Not as aggressive obviously and perhaps not as good an AAR...but better imo 

 

Totally agree with the concept that the defense should have drawn in the attackers and force them to close up with the defenders. This would require the Germans to expose their flanks as they progress forward.

Also agree that the jag could be any tank and have caused the same results so far. Where the difference is. If it was any other tank. Bils moves would not have been the same. Its the threat that creates the added interest in the decisions made.

Baneman is good for the moment and he has great positions for his three tanks. But he still has his work cut out for him to be able to push forward still.

But at this point he really needs to do a little math and come to the conclusion that he can push his infantry much more freely since they only  are up against a armor formation. As Bils numbers dwindle, the map will continue to have more approachable lanes for him to move forward.

[MikeyD]

There's some confusion on whether that Jumbo was knocked out or not. Baneman thinks the round bounced off the super-thick mantlet. I don't know if that's Baneman experiencing the CM 'death clock' while the other side knows its been killed, or not.

Some irony in the situation here. Bil originally said his object was not the terrain objectives but to kill the enemy (or words to that effect), and here we have Baneman unlikely to achieve his objectives but knocking Bil's tanks down like tenpins.

[Aragorn2002]

 

That's what I read at first as well, but I think Bil actually said:

Bil's had a rough few turns; his usual aggression pays off nine times out of ten but it seems like he played his cards too soon this time. 

Serves him right for chosing so many tanks and TD's. Baneman is completly confused about the never ending stream of vehicle contacts that turn up in front of him. Bil is defending with an attack force, Baneman is attacking with a defence force and doing a better job....so far....

Edited January 9, 2016 by Aragorn2002

[Holien]

There's some confusion on whether that Jumbo was knocked out or not. Baneman thinks the round bounced off the super-thick mantlet. I don't know if that's Baneman experiencing the CM 'death clock' while the other side knows its been killed, or not.

Some irony in the situation here. Bil originally said his object was not the terrain objectives but to kill the enemy (or words to that effect), and here we have Baneman unlikely to achieve his objectives but knocking Bil's tanks down like tenpins.

From what I read No confusion, the TC of the Jumbo died but it is still active (at the moment).

I think Bil missed an opportunity of getting side on to the beast.

It was un protected by the Panthers and while there were some PF100's in the area I think it would have been worth the mad drive forward to see if you could have got a tank side on to the beast.

If he was going to be aggressive then he needs to commit and I think he fell between two choices and paid the price.

Still plenty of time left to play but that IMO might have been his best chance to flank the beast...

 

[Holien]

I don't think that it is the power/protection of the Jagdtiger that is the only reason for Bils current situation...

I think he did a misstake with his initial advance on his left flank. He left good reverse slope possitions and advanced into a not fully ID:ed enemy possition.

Something that in my oppinion was quite unneccesary.

It would have been better to let Baneman do the advancing and wait for him to come across the crest of that first ridge or through Coburn and deal with them...many on few.

Using his scouts to observe Banemans movements and possition his armour accordingly.

Not as aggressive obviously and perhaps not as good an AAR...but better imo 

 

Yep this would also have been a valid approach but I think Bil felt he had an opportunity which he ultimately did not commit to. I think he should have commited and made the forward dash, he still might have lost two tanks but he might have taken the Big Cat in the process and put his tanks on the flank of the remaining Panthers.

Either way depending on LOS he still has enough tanks to try again as long as he can keep them out of harms way.

Good game and not such the walk over we thought it would be.

With Baneman having PF100 and plenty of infantry they might become the king makers if used right.

[Glubokii Boy]

.

If he was going to be aggressive then he needs to commit and I think he fell between two choices and paid the price.

 

I guess this is what happenned...

 

The way things turned out Bils attack failed but as you mentioned...He's still in the game.

Although his losses will be hard to take they might not be decisive. He may still turn this thing around. The next couple of turns will be intresting to follow.

Had he commited fully to this attack and failed it would be all over !

He might have hesitated somewhat to fully commit to this plan considdering the effects of a failure...A bold plan it was...No doubt 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by RepsolCBR

[Andrew H.]

This has turned into a very interesting battle.  And, actually, the infantry still might end up being a very important part of the attack. (Although infantry against Shermans typically don't fare well). 

I think Bil still has the better force; but he uncharacteristically: (1) maybe got a little overconfident after his initial success with the spoiling attack; and (2) slightly misjudged LOS on a couple of occasions.  He's usually eerily accurate about judging LOS - possibly the weather conditions are making things a little harder to judge.

And the LOS errors are particularly critical given the incredibly powerful Jagd (plus the standarly powerful Panthers) against Bil's thinly armored forces (esp. the Hellcats); he's not getting a lot of second chances.

Still, probes are hard, the VLs are deep and scattered, and Bil still has a lot of armor.

[mjkerner]

I think Bil was a bit disingenuous in stating that it wasn't skill, but the equipment, that caused the beating his armor took. Yes, Big Kitty is extremely dangerous to Hellcats and other living things but, come on, Baneman has been making good movement/positioning decisions as far as I'm concerned.

[MikeyD]

Since the Jagd hasn't taken a hit to this point that implies a mere Jpz IV L/70 in the same position could have inflicted the same level of damage. Sure, the 75mm rounds wouldn't have gone in one side and out the other like that big 120mm shell but the tanks would have got KO'd nonetheless. Unless the Jagd actually does have a 'height advantage'  in firing over terrain features.

[riptides]

Since the Jagd hasn't taken a hit to this point that implies a mere Jpz IV L/70 in the same position could have inflicted the same level of damage. Sure, the 75mm rounds wouldn't have gone in one side and out the other like that big 120mm shell but the tanks would have got KO'd nonetheless. Unless the Jagd actually does have a 'height advantage'  in firing over terrain features.

Just a few minutes ago, it appears that might be the case with that TD that got KO'd by big Kitty.

[sburke]

I think Bil was a bit disingenuous in stating that it wasn't skill, but the equipment, that caused the beating his armor took. Yes, Big Kitty is extremely dangerous to Hellcats and other living things but, come on, Baneman has been making good movement/positioning decisions as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah I'd agree.  The JT wouldn't be doing this all on it's own.  Bill's superior numbers would have gotten it except Baneman's Panthers are keeping it's flanks pretty well covered.  At this rate Baneman's Infantry may be able to march on the objectives with Kitty on overwatch.  Still if Kitty gets stuck in the mud this could all change in a heartbeat.

[mjkerner]

I reread Bil's comment, and think he wasn't saying Baneman was not skilled, but that he (Bil) wasn't not skilled either (double negatives, anyone?) and that Baneman's equipment beat him/his equipment that turn's face-off.

Regardless, I'm enjoying the show!

[Rinaldi]

Its frustration, a totally human reaction, especially when you know you are talented. If only Baneman knew he got in Bil's head with those last couple of turns

[Andrew H.]

It's too bad he doesn't have a second Jagdtiger he could commit now ... that would *really* get inside Bil's head. 

[riptides]

Time has got to be on Bill's side. All he needs to do is pull back and relax.

 

Course, he appears to want big Kitty. I expect a mad rush from both sides just to stir things up,

[Holien]

The only way to defeat that beast will be with a mad rush. Just when and where best to do it.

[Aragorn2002]

I think Bil was a bit disingenuous in stating that it wasn't skill, but the equipment, that caused the beating his armor took. Yes, Big Kitty is extremely dangerous to Hellcats and other living things but, come on, Baneman has been making good movement/positioning decisions as far as I'm concerned.

Hear, hear. Bil is under a lot of pressure and the favorite in this AAR, but still.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Aragorn2002

[Ts4EVER]

I may have underestimated the JT. It is easy to say "It's impractical, slow, bogs easily, has no turret etc..." but at the end of the day it is individually superior to any American tank in terms of combat power.

[Holien]

Just looking at Bil's latest position if he is brave enough team pain Sherman's rushed down his left flank could cause Baneman some problems. Unless his PF100's can pop them.

Not having a Panther on the same side as the beast could hurt. Depends on how fast those Sherman's can move and the LOS in that small copse of trees.

 

[Holien]

Hear, hear. Bil is under a lot of pressure and the favorite in this AAR, but still.

Gents Bil has retracted that statement and we can all type things poorly that don't come out the way we really mean.

[Ts4EVER]

In retrospect I wonder if he hasn't been a bit too aggressive. Maybe if he had put his m36 and shermans in ambush positions enfilading the main road and used his m18 more conservatively to maneuvre around...

[riptides]

Just looking at Bil's latest position if he is brave enough team pain Sherman's rushed down his left flank could cause Baneman some problems. Unless his PF100's can pop them.

Not having a Panther on the same side as the beast could hurt. Depends on how fast those Sherman's can move and the LOS in that small copse of trees.

 

Exactly! Speed and Shermans. One - It will be unexpected. Two- He knows it (Big Kitty) is backing out and Three- The infantry will not have time to react.

 

I expect Bill to move his M36 forward, start shelling the woods, and dash the Shermans into harms way.

Edited January 10, 2016 by riptides

[Ron]

I think Bil was a bit disingenuous in stating that it wasn't skill, but the equipment, that caused the beating his armor took. Yes, Big Kitty is extremely dangerous to Hellcats and other living things but, come on, Baneman has been making good movement/positioning decisions as far as I'm concerned.

Yes I agree, I think also Baneman has been playing the smarter game to this point. While fully realizing it makes for a more exciting AAR, Bil's moves have been a gamble, a calculated gamble, but still a gamble. Bil is the defender here yet he is trying to force things instead of letting things develop and creating traps. His latest moves are more of the same imo. I'm really reminded of some games I played with someone from the early CMBO days who advocated that an armour heavy force would trump everything else. Our game results showed that a combined armed force prevailed, and I think the end result here will be the same.

 

 

[MikeyD]

This game has see-sawed so wildly that its difficult to access whose on top. If in the next 3 turns the Jagd and a Panther get blowed-up (as well they could) we'll all be stunned. Ditto if the Jagd moves forward and kills another 3 of Bil's tanks with impunity (as well it could). That's what makes the game so much fun! 

[c3k]

Hear, hear. Bil is under a lot of pressure and the favorite in this AAR, but still.

Gents Bil has retracted that statement and we can all type things poorly that don't come out the way we really mean.

Lol... Having played Bil in our MG AAR, I can only reiterate what good sport he is. A total gentleman with whom to exchange turns, and a pleasure to be involved with on a project. He's a professional, good-natured, flexible, and committed to making this game system be the best it can be. I'm -sure- that he meant no disrespect from his earlier post. The medium makes some statements come out differently than intended. He's also looked upon as the favorite. With that comes the burden of scrutiny and the folks who will root for the underdog.

I cannot tell you how many times I revised my postings before I submitted them to my AAR thread, only to be dismayed when I read what I'd posted, be it an error of spelling, grammar, or interpretation. Official AAR's bring an incredible workload.

Ken