BETA AAR- Spoiler- Discussion Thread

[Holien]

Just seen Banemans post if I were him I would look at pulling back to ensure I had the remaining 2 Panther's together with the big boy. Then attack on left flank.

He is attacking on too wide a front and with  the drillings acting as flank guard he might have better success.

 

[General Jack Ripper]

Baneman has lost one of his few Panthers, and Bil has only lost a few Hellcats, that's a very bad trade for Baneman.

Bil is correctly focusing on smashing armor, having identified lack of armor as Baneman's weakness.

As I said much earlier in this thread, whoever gathers intelligence and acts on it first will win this fight.

Baneman, for all of his eyeballs at the front, is still trying to effect a plan that has no basis in reality. He's waiting and planning for an infantry fight that simply isn't there.

[womble]

Baneman, for all of his eyeballs at the front, is still trying to effect a plan that has no basis in reality. He's waiting and planning for an infantry fight that simply isn't there.

Aye. It's a bit discouraging to read his expectations that the town will be strongly held by infantry. A tribute to Bil's PsyOps/deception, I suppose.

[Holien]

To be fair I think I might still be expecting more troops but I would hope I would not have split my armoured spearhead as he has. He needs a strong fist, if he continues to press forward split up he will be sliced and diced.

It is easy for us to sit back and say what we would do, I wonder when he will work out what little infantry Bil has?

[Vanir Ausf B]

 Baneman's armor is all in the same general area around the L-shaped woods, albeit not right next to each other.

Ouch... I think the two exchanges (Bil's Hellcats and that Panther) leave the two sides about as they were at the beginning, relative to one another.

Bil saw a solid opportunity and took it. Baneman needs to use overwatch and prevent freebies like that.

Meantime, the infantry slowly advances.

Yes, Bil started off with thirteen tanks to Baneman's four so 3 to1 is about par.

Baneman's comments suggest the Jagd had overwatch duty but Bil found a hole in the LOS. This brings up some questions. Where exactly is the Jagd? Baneman moved it a few turns back but has not shown it's position in any screenshot since. More importantly, does Bil know where the Jagd is? Baneman's comment regarding Bil's tanks being out of the Jagd's LOS by "a few feet" suggests he thinks Bil knows where it is but Bil said he lost track of it when it moved.

[Paulus]

IMHO Baneman is lacking in reconnaissance (little intel on Bill's composition and position) and lacking in maneuver capabilities (fire and movement), making the traditional find, fix and destroy hard. I think he has 2 options.

1: Make an concentrated effort, like the fist. 

2: Try to overwhelm Bill with multiple aggressive actions, Bill can't man the entire front. 

Don't know wich one i would choose 

[Glubokii Boy]

I would go for option 1...

I think dismounted infantry are to slow in these condisions to be able to supprise, fool or overwhelm Bils 'armoured-defence'...

Like have been suggested previously...Have the JagdTiger lead the way to take some of the initial blows...shortely followed by the remaining Panthers (less then a turn behind)...

The JagdTiger need to get into the fight ! 

 

 

[MikeyD]

Not to project, but I can imagine once Baneman realized the true composition of Bil's forces he was a bit peeved. Instead of a normal combined arms QB he's facing off against zero infantry and a dozen pieces of armor. That's not so far removed from  playing an infantry battle and discovering your opponent has spent all his points purchasing Xylophone rocket artillery. Then again, Bil was justified in imagining a half dozen Panthers were possibly going to round that crest, which would have given him a 2-1 numerical armor advantage instead of the current 4-1ish.

[sburke]

In all fairness, Baneman did pick a heavy infantry force on a map not really friendly to that force. Even if Bil had gone with more infantry supplemented by artillery, Baneman would be in trouble. It is just way too open and his force is mostly on foot. Bil could probably have gotten away with a couple M36s for long range AT defense, a couple Shermans as infantry support and some dug in infantry with onboard mortars. Baneman really needs firepower and mobility neither of which he has in significant numbers. Even if he concentrates his force now, Bil could chew it up pretty good. In fact concentrating it could hurt in that it would give Bil more flanking opportunity. I really sympathize with Baneman. This is going to be ugly and in reality, he'd be pulling back in the face of a superior armored force... But that wouldn't make for a very fun beta AAR. 

[eniced73]

Looking at Baneman's last move, I would have stopped the Big Kitty right behind those buses and sapling.  Unless of course BF worked on the invisible force-fields that seem to surround those things.  They can easily absorb two or three shots.

 

In fact he should of come in at a wider angle to cutoff the front two pieces of armor from LOS.  He would of been able to engage the back two without worrying about a 4 on 1 showdown.  Of course there is the bogging issue to worry about.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2016 by eniced73

[A Canadian Cat]

Looking at Baneman's last move, I would have stopped the Big Kitty right behind those buses and sapling.  Unless of course BF worked on the invisible force-fields that seem to surround those things.  They can easily absorb two or three shots.

The front armour on that thing can absorb 10 or 20 shots   I am guessing that is what he is thinking.

 

In fact he should of come in at a wider angle to cutoff the front two pieces of armor from LOS.  He would of been able to engage the back two without worrying about a 4 on 1 showdown.  Of course there is the bogging issue to worry about.

Good suggestion in my opinion.  Looks like he is trying to take out all four.

Edited January 6, 2016 by IanL

[slysniper]

I don't want to jinx him, but big cats have a ability to get hit in the gun or mantlet and find themselves with a un-operational gun.

Well, that is what happens too often to me any time I try to use that front armor as my defense instead of getting the jump on one tank at a time concept.

Needless to say, that feature in the game has made me learn to use my armor smarter than to ever just trust my frontal steel.

[MikeyD]

What I cringe at is the unbuttoned Jagdtiger commander. I can see why he's doing it especially with the crappy situation awareness that buttoned vehicles have. But oooooh... I've made that bet many times and lost. What may be saving the commander is Bil's tanks are rolling backwards so their mg fire is wild.

 

Edited January 7, 2016 by MikeyD

[Macisle]

What I cringe at is the unbuttoned Jagdtiger commander. I can see why he's doing it especially with the crappy situation awareness that buttoned vehicles have. But oooooh... I've made that bet many times and lost. What may be saving the commander is Bil's tanks are rolling backwards so their mg fire is wild.

 

Same feeling here. I tend to be pretty conservative about staying buttoned, unless I've got a pretty comfortable range cushion.

[MikeyD]

At this point (turn 23) a good short term strategy for Bil might be to fire smoke to allow his units to skedaddle and/or flank. One problem, though is the difficulty to get units to fire smoke when they're presented with a target to shoot at. The TC tends to override your smoke command and plink away at the target. Besides, we all saw that FURY movie where the Tiger simply rolled forward through the smoke screen and resumed blasting.  I'm not at all sure how long a smoke screen would last in a snow storm with moderate wind.

[c3k]

Bil just posted another turn. He says he got the Jagdtiger's tank commander. Indeed, head out means head off...

[Rinaldi]

Bil just posted another turn. He says he got the Jagdtiger's tank commander. Indeed, head out means head off...

That's what I read at first as well, but I think Bil actually said:

The Jumbo, which took several shots at the JT, all were to miss, was also hit by the beast as it withdrew into the woodline... luckily this round was high and only took out the external MG.  The Jumbo's commander fell as a casualty to MG fire from the JT seconds before... this thing is causing me fits.  

Bil's had a rough few turns; his usual aggression pays off nine times out of ten but it seems like he played his cards too soon this time. 

[c3k]

Gah! I must've misread it. Perhaps the 128mm airburst got him?

[Rinaldi]

That or spalling from the .50 being hit. Rough luck for Bil, normally that usually only causes light wounding if that on the unbuttoned commander, at least in my experience. Then again, you don't take fire from 128mms in Normandy.

[MikeyD]

I hope Baneman posts a shot of the 120mm hole in the Jumbo. 

[c3k]

What is interesting is that, to me, Bil's purchase was "better" than Baneman's. Bil had 10(?) AFVs to deal with a few Panthers and a bunch of infantry. That should be easily enough done. Add in Bil's extremely capable manner of researching his enemy's orbat, the ground, and the weapons used in the game (for instance, checking the reload times), and I would ordinarily give this one to Bil.

Until the Jagdtiger came out to play.

Now, the table is totally turned. One unit can change the game. As long as the gun and tracks stay operational, Baneman should win now that he's knocked out all the 90mm opposition. All that's left is some 76mm Jumbos. (I may have miscounted/misremembered what Bil had and what Bil lost. )

Just an opinionated observation, fwiw.

Ken

[Vic4]

I'm loving my word pizza; 5 hellcats and a particular TC on top.. This alone was worth it because Baneman has actually.... er, killed Bil! Haha

Great show!

[Andreas3]

What is interesting is that, to me, Bil's purchase was "better" than Baneman's. Bil had 10(?) AFVs to deal with a few Panthers and a bunch of infantry. That should be easily enough done. Add in Bil's extremely capable manner of researching his enemy's orbat, the ground, and the weapons used in the game (for instance, checking the reload times), and I would ordinarily give this one to Bil.

Until the Jagdtiger came out to play.

Now, the table is totally turned. One unit can change the game. As long as the gun and tracks stay operational, Baneman should win now that he's knocked out all the 90mm opposition. All that's left is some 76mm Jumbos. (I may have miscounted/misremembered what Bil had and what Bil lost. )

Just an opinionated observation, fwiw.

Ken

Baneman has only knocked out the five M18's armed with 76mm guns, Bill still have his M36's with the 90mm's in reserve. 

[Glubokii Boy]

I don't think that it is the power/protection of the Jagdtiger that is the only reason for Bils current situation...

I think he did a misstake with his initial advance on his left flank. He left good reverse slope possitions and advanced into a not fully ID:ed enemy possition.

Something that in my oppinion was quite unneccesary.

It would have been better to let Baneman do the advancing and wait for him to come across the crest of that first ridge or through Coburn and deal with them...many on few.

Using his scouts to observe Banemans movements and possition his armour accordingly.

Not as aggressive obviously and perhaps not as good an AAR...but better imo 

 

[c3k]

Good point about the M36's being left. I'd lumped them with the M18's...don't know why...