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I think he has explained what he was up to but did not realise he had a Panther in front of him, it might have worked if there had been no unseen Panther? Also as he has mentioned he views them as recon elements so he is prepared to gamble with them.

The gamble lost but as you say he should now have a pretty good idea on what Baneman has, if he is prepared to do the math. He is already talking about 2 companies  Germans so I think he is on right track.

I guess Baneman is getting caught up with Christmas so turns might slow?

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I think he has explained what he was up to but did not realise he had a Panther in front of him, it might have worked if there had been no unseen Panther? Also as he has mentioned he views them as recon elements so he is prepared to gamble with them.

The gamble lost but as you say he should now have a pretty good idea on what Baneman has, if he is prepared to do the math. He is already talking about 2 companies  Germans so I think he is on right track.

He did state his intention, but not really explain it, Holien :) 

I am skeptical it would have worked very well, those Hellcats were easily over 1,000 meters of Panther-1, and even with an oblique engagement angle I don't see how the Hellcat gun could stand a chance unless hitting the side turret amour of the Panther (Vanir can probably say a lot about what would be the chances of that). 

I still think that he saw what he thought was a bumbling and - in his eyes - somewhat shambolic infantry heavy attack, without pausing for a second that his opponent may be covering his advance as well on the center... and jumped forward to strike decisively and stop Baneman in his tracks. Now he has the info... and Baneman's too - just checked his thread. I am pretty sure it won't take long Baneman to realize that with five different Hellcats, and a Sherman, there's not a lot of points to spend on infantry...

Yet I do agree with you that Bil will come on top :)

 

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I think what is illustrated here is that Bils OOB choice is a high stakes option. There is a reason why armies fight with combined arms forces. Baneman has a "balanced" task force (although far from perfect) while Bil has no real infantry to speak of.

Given enough time Baneman can probably move his infantry the length of the map, in much the way a real battlefield commander would. However he has a tight timescale to work with and snow on the ground. I read people suggesting that he should be moving mounted infantry quickly forward, but really can't see how that could be achieved. Any vehicle movement in the open will be punished by long range direct fire (as far as the weather permits) and Baneman knows this. He also knows he has to do the moving.  If he can keep pressing with his infantry and rest them sufficiently I can see him grinding forward. Whether he has enough time to make the gains required is another matter, but in this instance I do wonder if the map and mission time  was always going to preclude an Axis win. Rushing forward into a prepared defence was never going to be a winning strategy.

Bils recon force and tank killers would have worked perfectly had Baneman gone with an armour only or heavy force, but he didn't and Bil then made a mistake in thinking he could push forward and create an ambush, whereas he had no real reason to do so and it's cost him three Hellcats. 

At some point Baneman may well realise that Bil has very little infantry and if he can find routes to infiltrate and close on Bils armour, particular with tank hunter forces then Bil will have to react to avoid close armour assaults and PF's.

I do agree if Baneman loses the JT regardless of cause then it's most likely game over, but hey, everybody wanted him to purchase it. IMO opinion Baneman has purchased units to show off the new game, while Bil has purchased units to win the QB. ;)

P

Edited by Pete Wenman
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I do agree if Baneman loses the JT regardless of cause then it's most likely game over, but hey, everybody wanted him to purchase it. IMO opinion Baneman has purchased units to show off the new game, while Bil has purchased units to win the QB. ;)

 

I would say that the new US Army toys - the M36, the up-gunned and up-armored Shermans variants - served equally well both purposes, showcasing and winning.

 

I do think as well that Baneman's center of gravity are his very limited armored assets, but I would say that the Panthers are more valuable than the JT in this context.

 

 

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I would say that the new US Army toys - the M36, the up-gunned and up-armored Shermans variants - served equally well both purposes, showcasing and winning.

 

I do think as well that Baneman's center of gravity are his very limited armored assets, but I would say that the Panthers are more valuable than the JT in this context.

 

 

-Just got a laugh from the last sentence of this paragraph from the wikiP article on the M36:

The M36 was well liked by its crews, being one of the few armored fighting vehicles available to US forces that could destroy heavy German tanks from a distance. In an engagement with a German Panther tank at 1500 yards, an M36 of the 776th TD Battalion was able to penetrate the turret armor. Crews of the M36 found that it was better to target the turret rather than the glacis plate. In addition, crews found the Panther tank to be vulnerable when hit from the side.

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-Just got a laugh from the last sentence of this paragraph from the wikiP article on the M36:

The M36 was well liked by its crews, being one of the few armored fighting vehicles available to US forces that could destroy heavy German tanks from a distance. In an engagement with a German Panther tank at 1500 yards, an M36 of the 776th TD Battalion was able to penetrate the turret armor. Crews of the M36 found that it was better to target the turret rather than the glacis plate. In addition, crews found the Panther tank to be vulnerable when hit from the side.

I am not sure that two M18 make a M36 B)

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I am skeptical it would have worked very well, those Hellcats were easily over 1,000 meters of Panther-1, and even with an oblique engagement angle I don't see how the Hellcat gun could stand a chance unless hitting the side turret amour of the Panther (Vanir can probably say a lot about what would be the chances of that). 

Range to Panther-1 was 800-850 meters. The odds of a hit penetrating are not good but not impossible, maybe 1/4 to1/3 assuming the entire tank was exposed.

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About Panther vulnerability, I'm not sure but I think the Panthers on the map are Panther G (late) which would have the later chin mantlet - which might reduce the frequency of lucky hits to the turret front, maybe. Hmmm... Inspecting the screenshots closer maybe its one Panther G (mid) and one (late).

One piece of armor on the map nobody talks about is that German AA halftrack. Bil appears to be unaware of it and I imagine M36 armor wouldn't be able to stand up to getting hosed by an autocannon. It could make for a nasty surprise.  :)

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One piece of armor on the map nobody talks about is that German AA halftrack. Bil appears to be unaware of it and I imagine M36 armor wouldn't be able to stand up to getting hosed by an autocannon. It could make for a nasty surprise.  :)

Wow, you're right.. With all the talk of "Big Kitty" and the two Panthers, !, for one, had completely forgotten about that AA halftrack. And those things can put a real hurtin' on some of the lighter armor. I guess I'll have to go back over Baneman's thread to see what his approach is with that thing.

In general, seems like Baneman is in good shape. Just hope he doesn't get too impatient... and hence careless. (I do that all the time.)

One of my concerns for him has always been the lack of shreks & fausts in his infantry units. (I think he only has two?) Sure, with as much infantry as he has, some of 'em will be able to flow through any small cracks in the defense, but... if those troops can't take out any of Bill's armor "by hand," from the flanks, it seems like their movement across the map will still be very, very restricted. And Bil still has, what, TEN big guns left?

Should be very interesting!!

 

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It does affect them, but it's not nearly enough to eliminate the usefulness of having them in place and ready to kick ass (even if their legs are a bit tired, so the first kicks aren't as hard; better than no kicks at all). Often. It depends on the terrain and the loading of the troops. Sometimes over-using Quick is just tiring them for no gain.

Thanks womble, usefulness of having them in place and ready to kick ass good point ! I think I've been too conservative with the quick. Will use it more with longer pauses to eyeball threat areas.

 

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Vanir Ausf B Range to Panther-1 was 800-850 meters. The odds of a hit penetrating are not good but not impossible, maybe 1/4 to1/3 assuming the entire tank was exposed.

Yeah, I think Bill's reasoning wasn't too off. 1/3 odds with 3 or 4 hellcats firing on one. Reasonable odds that due to FOW he could reasonably think he may not get in next duel. But Wow- friction hit bill in the face

Agreed that I'm surprised he is all up front. But I guess he has mobility to pull back for some deeper kill zones

 

Edited by vincere
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No problems...You might be right...Others might agree with you (hopefully not though)...

I think you're fine, Repsol. I'll admit, my eyes did get big a couple of times while reading your reply in the main thread, but you're covered. It's fine, IMO. Baneman's post from yesterday afternoon makes it apparent that he is indeed aware of 5 pieces of heavy armor up ahead.

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I think you're fine, Repsol. I'll admit, my eyes did get big a couple of times while reading your reply in the main thread, but you're covered. It's fine, IMO. Baneman's post from yesterday afternoon makes it apparent that he is indeed aware of 5 pieces of heavy armor up ahead.

Thanks...good to know...

I'd hate it if i ruined this christmas drama...:wacko:

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