BETA AAR- Spoiler- Discussion Thread

[General Jack Ripper]

I think this battle will come down to whoever gets a grasp of the enemy force first.

The intelligence gathering phase will likely determine the outcome. Bil is a methodical wizard about gathering intel, so it will be up to Baneman to conceal his own force until he launches his main attack. One key advantage is Baneman seems intent on advancing down the one Avenue of Approach labeled by Bil as, "Least Likely to be Used."

Whichever player can come to grips with the asymmetrical force composition first, will win this thing in short order.

[sttp]

Should be a really interesting battle.

I'm wondering if Baneman's tanks are going to be able to engage at the kinds of ranges those tanks would ideally want to engage at? Bill's terrain analysis makes it sound like there are very few places where you'd get to use JagdTigers and Panthers at those long distances. Could mean that Baneman's tanks might end up being a little more vulnerable than we'd normally expect. And without them... yeah, true, that's a lot of infantry he has, but... Bill has a lot of tanks. Who knows how it'll all end up though. I just know it's sure gonna be fun to watch.

Edit to add: now that I go back and think about it more... this map is over 3km long. So a 'short' LOS on it is still probably a pretty good distance. This makes me worry less about Baneman's tanks than I was before. As long as there's plenty of tank ammo and he plays it straight, I think his armor will be okay. (I wonder how many rounds that JagdTiger comes with?)

Edited December 10, 2015 by sttp
revised thoughts....

[General Jack Ripper]

I think he should also show the Jadtiger early in overwatch if he has the proper high ground to do so. This will make Bill a lot more nervous about exposing his armor.

I told Baneman much the same thing in the Axis thread. Here's hoping he took the hint.

I think it will be difficult for Baneman to lead with his infantry...In covered terrain...fine ! but he will have to get out into the open to claim many of the VL it looks like.

I think Baneman's best use of his infantry would be sacrificial recon troops. Split all of his squads into teams, and saturate the field with eyeballs.

There are quite a few half tracks of varying capability. Baneman could use these as his infantry support which would leave the Cats to concentrate on American Armor only.

Technically, Baneman doesn't need any infantry support, because Bil has no infantry worth mentioning.

Killing Bil's tanks is the only job that needs doing, everything else is gravy.

Sure...rapid firering autocannons might be able to scare and force one  enemy tank to withdraw but these halftracks will most likely face more then one enemy tank at a time...

Auto cannons can cut through a Hellcat like a knife through water. The 15mm Drillings might have a bit of trouble, but anything 20mm and above will do the job nicely.

[slysniper]

The only thing Baneman needs in this battle is to use the armor in overwatch of any major infantry push that he plans to do.

He has enough firepower to maybe keep Bil at bay for awhile if he uses it to protect his infantry in a fast moving advance. Once the infantry disembarks and spreads out, they will be fine. But they need that armor to close with and get to the enemy positions.

If Baneman losses his armor, which is very likely to happen unless he is real good at using it together and  keeping it a strong  firebase for any of his advances. he will find himself with a hard task of being able to move at all. there just is not the terrain available to advance without a strong overwatch force.

So the battle comes down to Baneman keeping his Armor alive  to aid in his advances.  I am afraid with the map size and the amount of forces he has, he likely will spread his armor out to far apart, get caught in battles that he will be outnumbered and lose his units piecemeal. But the only real way I see him succeeding is with a armor overwatch fist. with infantry protecting the flanks from any counter assaults. and armored infantry advances under the cover of that tank overwatch.

 

 

[AttorneyAtWar]

One key advantage is Baneman seems intent on advancing down the one Avenue of Approach labeled by Bil as, "Least Likely to be Used."

 

How fitting for the theme of the game...

Edited December 10, 2015 by Raptorx7

[Pak40]

** UPDATE**

Bill has tweaked his final OOB and has managed to squeeze another M18 into the mix. And I should add that I initially thought he had only 2 M36s, but he indeed has 4 M36s. Now he as a total of 13 tanks/TDs.

He's also posted up how he's organizing into 3 separate groups which splits up his 4 tanks, the only thing that will be real effective against the infantry. If Baneman does indeed choose to push the infantry into the town on his left flank, then he'll have little opposition on that side.

The M18 x5 will be up front with the recon jeeps, probably for hit and run tactics This will make them very vulnerable to the Drillings. These are not the vehicles you want in the town, so my guess is he's going to just lightly defend the town and then scoot out.

[Bud Backer]

I think the JagdTiger is cool to see in a game, but on a long map, in snow, I'm tempted to wager chances are good it will immobilize before it ever sees action. 

Even if that's not the case, the sides of that beast are no thicker than a standard King Tiger, AND it has no turret. It's designed for defence, not offensive operations. Sooner or later circumstances will cause it to present a flank, and you won't need an M36 to kill it then.  I'd be more worried if Baneman had a Tiger I instead, to be honest. 

[Cobetco]

i think that these will eventually become very important to Baneman.

[Wicky]

I think (but am not sure) if Gustav Line is still relevant, light snow has a visibility range past 500m, so it doesn't look too restrictive for Bil's rough riders. Baneman on the otherhand? i duno. the visibility may kick in if he decides he wants to perch the Jagdtiger on a hill and provide long range overwatch, but i don't think that's what he has in mind anyways.

Bil: wrote: All I know is that I chose the Heavy Snow option when I set up the QB. 

Some confusion if this related to snow on the ground and/or in the air.  Screenies from Bil show snow flurrying down:

If it adversly effects long/medium range visisibilty then they'll potentially be stumbling about half-blind till they bump into each other

Snowfall's intensity is determined by visibility. When the visibility is over 1 kilometre (0.62 mi), snow is determined to be light. Moderate snow describes snowfall with visibility restrictions between .5 kilometres (0.31 mi) and 1 kilometre (0.62 mi). Heavy snowfall describes conditions when visibility is restricted below .5 kilometres

Edited December 10, 2015 by Wicky

[JSj]

I think the final conclusion after the confusion was cleared up is that the ground condition is "light snow", while the weather is "heavy snow". How would this affect visibility and mobility?

[RockinHarry]

Anyway, one shouldn´t take winning or loosing in this showcase battle too serious. It´s a probe mission and the scattered victory locations are just worth a 500 points altogether. He who kills more armor, surely will win and Baneman has more to kill, but has the more expensive stuff on the table.  So Baneman needs to make the most from his many infantry, slowly progressing to objectives, while keeping the few tanks concentrated and rather use them as fire brigade, when Bil shows what he has.

Bil on the other hand, shouldn´t give too much attention to the Jagdtiger and concentrate on the Panthers. The sooner he gets rid of them, the sooner he can roam around and get rid of the steel pillbox as well with overwhelming numbers of the more mobile tank hunters. After that Banemans infantry can´t go anywhere, anymore.

That´s all going to be quite an interesting battle for sure.

[RockinHarry]

 

Some confusion if this related to snow on the ground and/or in the air.  Screenies from Bil show snow flurrying down:

If it adversly effects long/medium range visisibilty then they'll potentially be stumbling about half-blind till they bump into each other

TEAM PAIN lol 

[Glubokii Boy]

 while keeping the few tanks concentrated and rather use them as fire brigade, when Bil shows what he has.

 

I agree with this...especially at the start of the battle when Bil does not know (suspect) that these Panthers are pretty much all Banemans got when it comes to armour...(i know...the Tiger also...)

Support one area of the map...

They will probably have a better chans if they stick together...

Before Bil gets more intel he will probably think that there are atlest one more tank group out there somewhere and be careful to move all his tanks to engage these 3...

3 panthers fighting together packs quite a punch and might very well be able to do well aginst Bils 'isolated' (spread out) battlegroups.

 

[Doc844]

It's gonna be interesting but I do believe Bil has the edge.  Recon is going to be a major factor for pinpointing Baneman main concentration and Bil has alot of it and it's very mobile.  I think he will be able to  build his battle picture alot faster and his fast moving BG,s will enable him to choose when he wants to engage and on his terms.  Whatever happens it's gonna be one he'll of a ride.

[domfluff]

I feel like this is going to be decided fairly quickly - the American TD's are reasonably bad at dealing with infantry, and the mismatch in armour numbers mean that the Panthers have their work cut out, so there are some clear decisive moments that will swing this either way.

I am expecting to see quite a lot of burning halftracks though. My money's on Bil I think, but that's always a fairly safe bet.

[Wicky]

I wonder if Baneman will keep his Panthers very close to his JagdTigger's flanks for protection along with a wraparound flottila screen of infantry and HTs as he slowly trundles down the map, while Bil scurries around harassing through the FoW and murk, looking for opportunities to nibble and take bigger bites into the large battle group.

[vincere]

I feel like this is going to be decided fairly quickly - the American TD's are reasonably bad at dealing with infantry, and the mismatch in armour numbers mean that the Panthers have their work cut out, so there are some clear decisive moments that will swing this either way.

I am expecting to see quite a lot of burning halftracks though. My money's on Bil I think, but that's always a fairly safe bet.

Yeah, and we could well see the decisive moment before they realise it.

 

Also, so Baneman confirmed battle is 90 minutes. I think this gives enough time for manoeuvre, some feints and even backing off and moving armour from flank to flank.

I want them to kick off so we get confirmed max visibility range in the snow.

[sttp]

I realize I posted this pic before in another thread, but... I'm wondering if some of us have the wrong idea about how vulnerable the sides of that JagdTiger are? (And I am 100% open to the possibility that it is me who has the wrong idea.)

But I bet there were 3 dozen + hits to its sides here -- it's from a ChrisND YouTube preview, BTW -- and this beast survived just fine. And those AP rounds weren't coming from piddly little Stuarts or whatever, either.

Any reason to believe the JagdTiger's side armor thickness in-game wouldn't be very close to its real life number (which is about 80mm, AFAIK)? That's not too shabby for the sides....

It'd also be interesting to know how many rounds the Panthers and the JagdTiger come with. That could easily be a factor at these long distances. Bill mentions limited or "short" LOS's in his terrain analysis, yes, but on a 3km map that seems like it could still end up being a pretty good distance.

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by sttp

[domfluff]

I'm fully expecting the life and death of that Jagdtiger to be one of the decisive moments. Bil knows it's there, of course, so he'll be ready for it, and I don't think he'd have taken a force that couldn't deal with it.

What I'm *actually* expecting is for it to bog within the first couple of turns, out of LOS of anything worth shooting, but that's just me being cynical

[Bud Backer]

I'm fully expecting the life and death of that Jagdtiger to be one of the decisive moments. Bil knows it's there, of course, so he'll be ready for it, and I don't think he'd have taken a force that couldn't deal with it.

What I'm *actually* expecting is for it to bog within the first couple of turns, out of LOS of anything worth shooting, but that's just me being cynical

heh. I said the same thing the last page

[Glubokii Boy]

Personally... i hope that this 'bogging feature' is not overdone i this game...

- In such a way that the armoured movements will be restricted primarely to a few roads 

Maybe this is historically the most correct way but i would prefer to see that tanks will be able to move crosscountry at a carful pace without regularely getting stuck within a turn or two...

Hopefully BFC have found a good balance...

 

 

[domfluff]

CMBS seem to have less bogging (I've mostly only bogged around rivers), or bogging seems to be more survivable at least. Of course, being immobilised in the wrong place is a mission kill.

[womble]

Any reason to believe the JagdTiger's side armor thickness in-game wouldn't be very close to its real life number (which is about 80mm, AFAIK)? That's not too shabby for the sides....

There's every reason to think that if the JT's side armour is not ca 80mm at a slight slope, it's a bug and will be fixed pretty much instantly. Indeed, since the thing's such an iconic piece of kit, is being used in public and the game's not out yet, it's likely that any such SNAFU will be corrected before the product goes to press.

And 80mm of nearly vertical plate is penetrable by the high velocity US guns available in plentiful supply in this timeframe.

[sttp]

Personally... i hope that this 'bogging feature' is not overdone i this game...

- In such a way that the armoured movements will be restricted primarely to a few roads 

Maybe this is historically the most correct way but i would prefer to see that tanks will be able to move crosscountry at a carful pace without regularely getting stuck within a turn or two...

Hopefully BFC have found a good balance...

 

 

I've got a disproportionately large number of CMFI snowy QBs under my belt -- my favorite module, and favorite weather conditions -- and though I am a long, long way from any kind of expertise, I can at least say that if this new game's rates of bogging and immobilization aren't too much higher than that, then getting stuck is probably not overdone here.

I guess we'll soon see!

But, at least in CMFI, if you keep the heavy armor down to MOVE and SLOW speeds and keep it off of hedges and fences and all, the frequency of occurrence is usually pretty tolerable.

Still, yeah, total immobilization is eventually going to happen, so I've learned to deal with it just like I deal with the morning commute: I simply expect the delays, as a sort of fact of life, and only rarely do I obsess over who or what caused it or let it truly annoy me.

The good news is that total immobilization seems to usually be preceded by several 15- to 30-second bogging incidents, so (I assume, but again, it seems like) track damage usually only gradually increases, until some immobilization critical point is reached.

Immobilization that comes totally out of the blue doesn't happen that often in CMFI snow, not in my experience. Hopefully CMFB didn't up those rates too too much.

So... who knows, maybe Baneman actually will have a short window where he's safe from total immobilization, and will be able to (intermittently, between bogging incidents, LOL) move the heavy stuff to some useful place????

There are some tactically interesting incentives created by the higher probability of total immobilization. Though I'd often want to use the more remote routes for my heavy armor and keep it shielded by terrain as long as possible, in the snow it's often wiser to use routes that aren't quite as out of the way -- places where, even if your tank became totally immobilized there, you could still get some use out of it. Neat little twist in the thinking/planning.

 

 

 

[MikeyD]

I'll admit to probably being the only guy on this thread who has actually knocked out a Jagdtiger in the game. 

In my opinion Bil has made one mistake. He forgot Sherman 105 howitzer fields a big HEAT round. Getting off a clean shot would've involved much skill and even more luck but a HEAT round is a HEAT round. It might not penetrate the absurdly thick Jagdtiger upper hull front but everything else is fair game.

I also wonder about combat range during a snowstorm. We can criticize Baneman for his heavy infantry presence. But if fighting distance is reduced to Panzershreck range by the snow that will complicate matters for Bil.

Edited December 11, 2015 by MikeyD