BETA AAR- Spoiler- Discussion Thread

[vincere]

Hey Bill and Baneman are cool for us to talk there AAR with spoilers in here.

 

So to kick it off.

I am surprised Bill is so light on infantry. Only taking recon companies. Ok much of the map is open, but still I can't battle without a slice of good infantry.

Contrast this with Baneman's 2 company's worth. Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Thoughts?? Will Bill have enough stand-off fire power to support slowing infantry advance in the villages? My first thoughts are no, and that Smoke could really help Baneman in this. (Though he went light on fire support)

[AttorneyAtWar]

I have a pretty strong feeling that Baneman isn't going to get far, his armor is going to be out numbered and smashed by those hell cats. Once Bil finds out he only has 2 (or 3?) panthers and a Jagdtiger its pretty much over. Infantry won't get far getting smashed by Jumbos.

[Glubokii Boy]

I have a pretty strong feeling that Baneman isn't going to get far, his armor is going to be out numbered and smashed by those hell cats. Once Bil finds out he only has 2 (or 3?) panthers and a Jagdtiger its pretty much over. Infantry won't get far getting smashed by Jumbos.

This is my wiew also...I think this will be very difficult for Baneman !

That JagdTiger can't be everywhere...

I would guess that Baneman did not expect Bil to go for such an armour heavy defence-force...

[Glubokii Boy]

As i see this...

If Bil can get some decent intel on Banemans forces the only thing he will need to do will be to group his armour together in a few groups out of line of fire from the

jagdtiger and then wait...Even if he splits his armour into 3 groups or something like that he will still be able to engage Banemans Panters - many on few - 

and most likely knock those out...With only the Tiger left to support his infantry...he will be in an hopeless situation imo...

 

[c3k]

Well...I would take Baneman's (lopsided) force and think it could have a good chance against Bil. I wouldn't want it, but I'd take it. I'll leave it to others to count HE shells and whatnot, but the map is such that Baneman could maneuver his forces via covered/concealed routes and close the distance to Bil. Without infantry, Bil will be hamstrung. Okay, "could be" hamstrung.

The key will be Baneman leveraging the asymmetry so that his forces produce synergies not ordinarily expected. (Doesn't that sound good? Sheesh.) Squirt infantry into every crack and crevice, crawl about like cockroaches, and confound Bil so much that he'll face a conundrum on how to counter the crunchies.

If Bil has to enter the woods to fight...he'll lose. Baneman needs to use Smoke (mortars?) and get into the woods and then stay there. His tanks need to stay back...on roads...and keep Bil from freely moving about.

So...Baneman's tanks dominate the center from 1,000m and more. The Jumbos will shrug off some the 75's (I'd guess...someone else can check). The M36's, good as they are, won't penetrate the front of the Panthers or JagdTiger from 1,000m. I think. (Again, I leave it as an exercise for someone else to test.) If Baneman has his armor unbuttoned, as he should, I'll guarantee that his TCs will have at least one head lopped off by a high AP round. Just the way it goes... The M36 may inop some systems. Baneman's got to make sure he doesn't penny-packet his armor, of which he has a definite paucity. He should keep a few infantry teams near the tanks, in advance, with binos, then move the tanks up, opened up, in a group...so any enemy contacts can get engaged by more than one tank.

The rest of his force, the infantry and halftracks, will need to stay in every crease he can find and get into the woods.

My .02.

 

Ken

[Pak40]

Hey Bill and Baneman are cool for us to talk there AAR with spoilers in here.

 

So to kick it off.

I am surprised Bill is so light on infantry. Only taking recon companies. Ok much of the map is open, but still I can't battle without a slice of good infantry.

Contrast this with Baneman's 2 company's worth. Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Thoughts?? Will Bill have enough stand-off fire power to support slowing infantry advance in the villages? My first thoughts are no, and that Smoke could really help Baneman in this. (Though he went light on fire support)

Baneman has more like a full battalion's worth of infantry. It could be hard for Bill to stop that much infantry unless he knocks out the Cats. Good thing for Bill, that's his priority.

His decision to go with 4 Shermans instead of two was a good one. That will help him against the infantry. Other than that, he doesn't have much to defend against them. He didn't get any artillery (The VT fuses could have all but secured his victory) and chose instead to get the 2nd Sherman Jumbo. The Hellcats and Jacksons will be of limited use against the infantry. The recon troops, as Bill admits, wont be able to stop Baneman's infantry. His best hope is to delay Baneman enough so that he can't capture all of the VLs and hope that the delays draw out Baneman's armor in order to spring his TD traps.

Baneman, on the other hand, needs to be aggressive with his infantry, get some real estate early so that his troops don't tire out in the end. They have a long way to go in the snow. How many turns is this match? Also, by springing the infantry early he might make Bill nervous enough to to commit his armor to stop the tide of infantry, thus exposing them to his lurking Cats. I think he should also show the Jadtiger early in overwatch if he has the proper high ground to do so. This will make Bill a lot more nervous about exposing his armor. I think only his Jacksons will have a chance to knock it out at that range. His infantry will have problems crossing open ground but once he realizes that Bill doesn't have much to stop him then he will force Bill to use his armor.

This battle all depends on Bill's ability to knock out the Cats, specifically the Panthers. He is seasoned enough to spring traps in his favor.  He'll also need to recognize how few cats Baneman has. Once he does, he can begin to mop up infantry with his remaining armor.

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Pak40

[vincere]

I have a pretty strong feeling that Baneman isn't going to get far,... Infantry won't get far getting smashed by Jumbos.

I really need to look at the maps again. Cover approaches, tree lines. And he will need smoke over watch, smoke and more smoke.

 Squirt infantry into every crack and crevice, crawl about like cockroaches, and confound Bil so much that he'll face a conundrum on how to counter the crunchies.

Squirting infantry into every crack and crevice is just how I like to play.  He has enough to through feints, and sacrifice a few to make it look convincing.

Baneman has more like a full battalion's worth of infantry.

This battle all depends on Bill's ability to knock out the Cats, specifically the Panthers. He is seasoned enough to spring traps in his favor.  He'll also need to recognize how few cats Baneman has. Once he does, he can begin to mop up infantry with his remaining armor.

Heck yes, nearly a battalion. Plenty of shrecks in those companies if I remember? It an interesting asymmetrical choice they've gone for. Both could probably use more arty in different ways.

I would guess that Baneman did not expect Bil to go for such an armour heavy defence-force...

I think the both guessed opposite- Baneman so numerous on grunts and low on tank numbers.

 

 

[Glubokii Boy]

I think it will be difficult for Baneman to lead with his infantry...In covered terrain...fine ! but he will have to get out into the open to claim many of the VL it looks like.

With so few tanks i guess he will be very carfull with them...making it a bit difficult to support his most forward infantry units...

Without proper support i think his infantry will have a hard time advancing that final distance to the VLs when being opposed by numorus enemy tanks (even if he has alot of troops)...But as Pak40 pointed out the hellcats and jacksons might not have much HE wich might help Baneman some (but they do have machineguns, don't they ?)

But with skilled infantry tactics...he might supprise me 

 

[Vencini]

Hello gentlemen

 

CMBN fighting in bocage

 

CMFI : hills and  abrupt terrain

CMMG : urban combat

 

CMRT: forest

 

and...

 

CMFB : cold environment

 

So my question is: could you share some recommendations for this type of terrain ?Good links to read ?

 

For example, c3K recommends "His tanks need to stay back...in roads". There are another things to keep in mind?

 

Tactics to fight into cold environments? Advantages and disadvantages ?

 

Some advices from veterans players of CM games will be much appreciated.

 

Sorry for the off topic. Didn't want to open a new tread

 

Thanks for answers and help

 

Regards

 

Edited December 9, 2015 by Vencini
CMMG

[Derfel 2nd]

For some reason that lone JagdTiger reminds me of "Grond", that big-ass battering ram they use against Minas Tirith in the Lord of The Rings. There's a passage that goes something like "Long it was in the making... Orcs surrounded it, Trolls walked behind to wield it..." (quoted from memory because I can't be arsed to look it up right now)

I get this image of that JagdTiger slowly moving down a snowy road with German infantry swarming about it... probably with Baneman circling above it on a very large newt...

In any case I mostly agree with Ken; it does feel like Baneman brought a spoon to a knife fight, but there is one thing; distance. As I understood the description of the terrain there aren't any large open vistas. That means that the infantry have a chance to get in close and personal to Bil's armor, close enough? Well, maybe.

Also it means that if there is interaction between the armored units it will be nasty, brutish and short, RoF and crew experience might be more important than bore size (insert joke of large bores on the forum here).

So, I guess my conclusion is that Baneman's best option is Orc tactics, spread out and swarm all over the enemy, and if you can, bring a cave troll...

 

[Cobetco]

 

Without proper support i think his infantry will have a hard time advancing that final distance to the VLs when being opposed by numorus enemy tanks (even if he has alot of troops)...But as Pak40 pointed out the hellcats and jacksons might not have much HE wich might help Baneman some (but they do have machineguns, don't they ?)

hellcats and Jacksons don't have machineguns. well the jackson B's have a ball mount, which is useless.

[vincere]

Hello gentlemen

CMRT: forest

CMRT mostly forest? Really??? I loved the demo, but never picked RT up as when I was ready Clack Sea was calling me.

 

So looked at Bill's Map analysis again. He thinks his "AA4 is the least likely route as he will not want to slog through the town, but he could bypass it to the right" But that route could really help Banemans infantry take first 2 right side objectives.

There's some objectives looking fairly open. But if he pile on the left flank too, and gets supported infantry in through KT5 and into 6 then the 5 rear quarter objectives are in around close terrain. 

 

At the moment, despite low number of tanks I think Baneman can afford to make a few more mistakes than Bill. Bill could be second guessing for a while on where the other tanks are

 

[Derfel 2nd]

"hellcats and Jacksons don't have machineguns. well the jackson B's have a ball mount, which is useless."

Good point, I had forgotten that. Well, that is another crumb in favor of Baneman's orcs. If they can approach from several directions at once the Shreks should make short work of the TDs, of course that is assuming they don't stop a 90 mm HE round long before they get into the district...

I guess Bil will mix the TDs with Shermans to prevent this, or he might just keep the TDs at distance and just use the Shermans against the infantry once he figures out Banemans force-mix.

 

[Ts4EVER]

I feel like the Allies have the upper hand here. That being said, the wrong expectations on their part might lead to some confusion. He might be under the impression that the enemy has a whole tank force in reserve. If that is the case, he might not be able to use his tanks to stem the tide of infantry. Because from what I can tell about the map, it would be possible to find covered routes for the infantry and exploit them. The Allies could easily shut this down, but only if they actually maneuvre. If he is afraid of unspotted Panzers, he might play too conservatively, giving the Germans at least an initial advantage.

[vincere]

I feel like the Allies have the upper hand here. .... The Allies could easily shut this down, but only if they actually maneuvre. If he is afraid of unspotted Panzers, he might play too conservatively, giving the Germans at least an initial advantage.

He did say that he plans on movement. But like you say, will he be bold after feeling a few burn.

 

[Ts4EVER]

I also wonder how much of a handicap the lacking top armor of the hellcats and M36s is when fighting infantry.

[Pak40]

 

 

hellcats and Jacksons don't have machineguns. well the jackson B's have a ball mount, which is useless.

Just the top side .50s for the hellcats and Jacksons. I can't remember if they're for anything but AA or not. I'll have to look at my reference books tonight.

[Pak40]

After looking over both OOBs again I feel a little better for Baneman and a little worse for Bill.

Axis attack:

He's got a healthy supply of mortar fire, both on map and off. It wont do much against Bill's infantry because he effectively has none. However, he could use it for good smoke screens and harassment of the TDs.

There are quite a few half tracks of varying capability. Baneman could use these as his infantry support which would leave the Cats to concentrate on American Armor only.

The only downside is that he has very few Panzershreks - I think I only counted 4. He nixed the rest.

American Defense:

The lack of artillery is really going to hurt Bill. He almost got the VT fuses which absolutely would have slaughtered Baneman's infantry in the open. He bet heavy that Baneman would use lots of armor instead. The only thing in his favor is that the bottom half of the map is relatively open.

The lack of MGs, especially infantry based MGs is also really going to hurt Bill. The Shermans are his best bet against the infantry, but then again, they're all armed with 76mm guns which aren't as good as the 75mm guns against infantry.

 

[Vic4]

Gents,

I'm not much of a conversationalist; ahem hence my one post.. but I seriously love these games and the AARs are fantastic. Unfortunately, (and I do hope I eat these words) do you think that this game has already been lost in the purchase phase for Baneman? I feel that we've seen this happen in almost all of Bil's AARs where the less experienced player consistently makes the mistake of not purchasing enough armor and summarily gets routed. Seems that once Bil knocks out the Panthers and then at least disables the systems of the Jagtiger it's going to be over. Hate to be a scrooge, but man I wish we could see a really even match.   ....Best wargame/franchise out there; hands down. Vic 

[Migo441]

Yep, I agree.  I wish the self-purchasing aspect was removed from these demonstration AARs.  Too much chance of a catastrophic mismatch.  I think it would be better if a third experienced player trusted by both combatants would select both forces with an eye towards a balanced match-up.

That said, who knows, this could still turn into a doozy.

SO much pressure on Baneman's limited armor.

 

 

[Glubokii Boy]

 

There are quite a few half tracks of varying capability. Baneman could use these as his infantry support which would leave the Cats to concentrate on American Armor only.

 

 

If Banemans infantry where opposed primarely by enemy footsoldiers this would most likely work i think...but this will not be the case in this game it seems.

His infantry support veichles will have to go up against enemy armour...tricky ! 

Sure...rapid firering autocannons might be able to scare and force one  enemy tank to withdraw but these halftracks will most likely face more then one enemy tank at a time...

I think Baneman will need to be very careful how he advances these halftracks...he might be able to find good keyholed possitions for them that will allow him to support his infantry but it will be...tricky...i think.

With his limited ammount of tanks avaliable...each tank-loss will be felt very hard for Baneman i'm sure...He can't really afford to lose any.

 

It will be intresting to se though if this infantry heavy attackforce will be able to gain much ground here...

[Glubokii Boy]

I think that Baneman will need to be very agressive with his JagdTiger...To even out the numbers.

If this succedes and he manages to seriously reduce Bils armour superiorety he will instead be in a very good possition.

Much hangs on the performance of this beast !

[Vic4]

map is 3km+ deep

needs to get 2+ companys inf w/ limited transport across to VLs

w/ (4) armored assets: (1)=25%

Stummels maybe account for 1 additional panther..  

they are attached to differing sections which implies a separated approach..

no offense really: but it seems very slim odds

[Wicky]

i wonder what the visibilty / engagement range will be with snow in the air, and how that will effect Bil's pursuit of intel.

[Cobetco]

I think (but am not sure) if Gustav Line is still relevant, light snow has a visibility range past 500m, so it doesn't look too restrictive for Bil's rough riders. Baneman on the otherhand? i duno. the visibility may kick in if he decides he wants to perch the Jagdtiger on a hill and provide long range overwatch, but i don't think that's what he has in mind anyways.