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Kingtiger Mantlet and Coax MG problem, and an attempted 3D model Fix


Skwabie

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Personally I strongly believe each single player gamer should have a free choice, to play the game he likes the way he likes it, and not subject to the universal/collective rules set by the original game. It is his own time and his own fun. Time and time again there are 20 page forum threads going on, simply because someone doesn't like the existing way the game is set. Hence if such a choice is presented to me, I feel quite obligated to share it with everyone. Secondly, power users can use it to better understand game engine mechanisms, to better test, spot and fix bugs that official fixes may or may not come, a long time later.

I see your point of course but man do I disagree. The game designers have looked at all the conflicting research, anecdotes etc and came to a series of conclusions. They have a demonstrated track record of making adjustments to those conclusions when errors are found. We should keep pointing out those errors when we find them. However actually modifying the game is not a good idea. Even in your example of one person's desires are not being met. The real life tank commanders could not say hey my tank is not behaving like the manufacturer said it would, I'll just make a few adjustments. Just like in real life you work with what you have.

Your particular example might well fall into a case of well it kinda fixed a bug so OK but it feels like a slippery slope towards letting people with (insert stereotypical over inflated nationalist pride here) or worse (insert delusional prejudice belief here) reinforce their warped view. We have all seen some of those people appear here from time to time and perhaps sometimes the pride part might even show up in our own hearts. So in the interests of just making the game better report the bugs and suspicious behavior but let's not try to warp the game.

Just my opinion.

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HPS's Panzer Campaigns suffers badly from this. In some ways the PzC system is great - the unit OoB and TOE is completely open and editable, meaning that good research can be incorporated on the fly by dedicated players, and new scenarios created that are well outside the scope of the initial release. However, there are some significant drawbacks. Two in particular.

1) I downloaded a PzC: Normandy '44 mod some years ago, and the nob who'd created it thought that Wittmann was the bees knees. So he adjusted the armour and firepower values of Wittmann's Tiger company. Not just a little bit, either. With the assigned values that unit was essentially invulnerable and invincible. Which completely turned tactics on it's head - you didn't need to be circumspect and cunning with the few Tigers available, just send Wittmann rampaging where ever you wanted. Game over, man. Game over.

2) that was bad enough, but after working on some mods of my own for a while (quite a while, actually) I realised that in a PBEM game, each player used the local version of the OoB file to calculate results, and there was no 'locking' or bundling of the OoB file at the start of a PBEM game. What that means is that the two players can be working off different OoB files, with different armour and firepower values for what is nominally the same unit. With the number of modified OoB files floating around it'd be fairly easy to find yourself in that situation accidentally, while someone who really needed to win would find it trivially easy to set that up on purpose. It's a terrible system.

I'd hate the same situation to arise in the CM 'verse.

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Different circumstances.

Cheating in MP is bad.

But there's nothing really wrong with people messing about with the stats in their own games.  Obviously self-delusion is self-delusion, but it's unclear why anyone following their Wehraboo fantasies to mod their own game should be stopped from doing so.  Obviously if they're going to come online and claim that everyone's game should be modified so that the King Tiger has a layer of spaced Aryan superiority between its armour plates then they should be rightly mocked.  But there's no virtue in shutting down moddability for the sake of having everyone play the One True Version.  

 

 

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Problem is that you can't know in a PBEM if the other side has tinkered with the stats. So when something unlikely happens you can't know if CM is to blame or your opponent has messed with the chances.

That would be new and it is bad.

Messing with your own game is of course ok but there is (currently) no way to stop that from flowing into a H2H game.

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Problem is also that the more a game is moddable, the lazier the developer can be. Because if you don't like their work, you can just mod it, right?

But then you end up needing a shed load of various mods to just make the game playable. Some of the mods will conflict and cause new bugs, and nobody can help you because every person has a unique mess of mods installed.

And every time a mod fixes something, it usually breaks something else or adds something idiotic, like JonS story about the invincible tigers. Then you need a countermod to fix that ..  

Then when finally everything works the way you want, your computer crashes and you have to install the whole tangle all over again.

I think it should be up to the game developers to ensure the quality of their product. 

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Well debating about "modding" of CM itself is quite moot, as the developer has stated firmly many times that CM has to stay closed for profitability, maintainable tech support and a unified customer base.

 

 

Open modding of games in general however has always been a coin of two sides it seems. It is like... liberal vs conservative computer game politics (too far?:blink:) I think the sweet spot is probably somewhere in between. The player should definitely have a choice of choosing his own contents and making up his own rules and systems (or choose not to) but, neither should a player take on the role of a developer in entirety.

But if one uses mods one should be fully prepared to tinker with them that is a given. Then again I can think of some cases where it is difficult, one game (won't give name, don't want to upset ppl) uses java code mods, it can be debugged, sure, but way too tedious, more importantly the base game isn't worth the effort. Anyway Bulletpoint I think if the base game isn't good to begin with, it'll be very hard for 3rd party mods to change it. Mods basically enriches content and variety at the cost of stability and ease of use, the latter can be offset by self-debugging from a power user. But mods are helpless to change a game's core design. (i.e. one can mod database, but cannot mod source code). Rather, I look for games that are moddable, but are excellent without mods to begin with. As for JonS I wonder why can't you change Wittmann's skill setting yourself to your liking... or is it simply not an option once the scenario is completed? And about MP it is less of an issue these days, usually if a game supports both competitive MP and modding, an anti-cheat system is put in place.

Edited by Skwabie
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@JonS was not talking about the kind of settings that can be changed in the CM scenario editor. He was talking about the armor values of the tanks. In other words exactly the kind of mod you made except instead of investigating a bug fix it was for cheating.

I do not see this issue as two sides of a coin but a two headed coin that will be used for ill.

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Most of the gaming community is composed of people from different backgrounds and tastes. What you have done here @Skwabie is take a problem that some of the Combat Mission players have and provide a solution. I hope you continue to find the time to tinker with the game you bought and share anymore of your discoveries and solutions with us players who find these problems aggravating and persistent.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@JonS was not talking about the kind of settings that can be changed in the CM scenario editor. He was talking about the armor values of the tanks. In other words exactly the kind of mod you made except instead of investigating a bug fix it was for cheating.

Was way too busy with work to reply. Firstly, the real TigerII mantlet area is 337mm LOS thickness (150mm@13deg mantlet + 180mm@10deg turret). In CM, since the turret armor is discarded by game engine, it is only 150mm of mantlet armor. With my edit, it is only 180mm of turret. So it's either one or the other and neither of which reaches the thickness of the RL value. How is this exactly like puffing a WW2 TigerI ace tank to a super space fortress?

Secondly, if JonS does not like the mod, he can 1. adjust the mod to his own liking - since PzC can be openly edited, nothing stops him from doing that. Be it change the unit's experience level, its armor and/or fire power, or whatever other values, whatever he thinks fit or likes. 2. simply delete the mod, which is offered for free, is it not. 3. Furthermore, he can make his own mod - Or not, and just play the game vanilla. 4. Ask the modder, respectfully, for a change. Free choice. Do whatever you like. There's ofc another choice, go to the modder, and complain about it. It is an option (that many ppl take), yes, but actually least productive.

Lastly, I'm simply doing something I deem right. The turret armor is bugged. I improved it. It is a half assed method, given, but the best I can do by myself. And I'm fine with using it, myself. And if you consider it "cheating", well sorry, too bad. But by the same token, if CM says the earth is flat and the sun orbits around it, and ppl changed it, you'll say they're cheaters?

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 1. adjust the mod ... 2. simply delete the mod, ... 3. Furthermore, he can make his own mod - ... 4. Ask the modder, respectfully, for a change. ... There's ofc another choice, go to the modder, and complain about it...

Yeah but I would prefer option 6. A game where the designers have done a good job of research and everyone plays with the same system and when people find bugs the designers fix them and when people make unreasonable requests they are ignored and no one has to deal with the possibility of playing against them.

Even though your work is of the "find a bug and try to get if fixed" variety (and that is a good thing (tm) ) if others copy your method would could end up with a bit of confusion. 

Lastly, I'm simply doing something I deem right. The turret armor is bugged. I improved it. It is a half assed method, given, but the best I can do by myself. And I'm fine with using it, myself. And if you consider it "cheating", well sorry, too bad.

Actually I was not trying to say that what you did specifically was cheating the point I was trying to make was it opens the door to cheating. But you are correct the majority of us live in free countries and are free to do as we please.  I'm just worried - perhaps unjustly but perhaps not.

But by the same token, if CM says the earth is flat and the sun orbits around it, and ppl changed it, you'll say they're cheaters?

Well that is just a ridiculous straw man argument and an affront to discussion :D

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Yeah but I would prefer option 6. A game where the designers have done a good job of research and everyone plays with the same system and when people find bugs the designers fix them and when people make unreasonable requests they are ignored and no one has to deal with the possibility of playing against them.

Even though your work is of the "find a bug and try to get if fixed" variety (and that is a good thing (tm) ) if others copy your method would could end up with a bit of confusion.

It is very obvious that you have a strong faith in CM, Ian.Leslie. But I believe everything is made by man and is unavoidable to contain errors; Also I suppose that purely from a HvH competition standpoint, it doesn't really matter if the system is correct, as long as everyone is subject to the same one. But in singleplayer it is perhaps somewhat opposite.

 

Actually I was not trying to say that what you did specifically was cheating the point I was trying to make was it opens the door to cheating. But you are correct the majority of us live in free countries and are free to do as we please.  I'm just worried - perhaps unjustly but perhaps not.

 

Sadly I do not. Here democracy did not win. I suppose it is why I have such a strong feeling about it... I can only say... be careful what you wish for.

 

As for bug reporting, I've done plenty in the past for another game (and believed, very strongly), but likely way too much with a pretty big personal cost. I intend to "retire" and leave it to the ones still mentally young:)

Edited by Skwabie
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Skwabie said:

 1. adjust the mod ... 2. simply delete the mod, ... 3. Furthermore, he can make his own mod - ... 4. Ask the modder, respectfully, for a change. ... There's ofc another choice, go to the modder, and complain about it...

You're obviously either not reading what I wrote, or not comprehending what you read. I did 1, I did 2, I did 3, and I did 4. None of that is the problem, and I do like PzCs open architecture. The problem is that in PzC it is trivially easy to cheat, even inadvertently.

The same thing now applies to CM because of your mod here for the K-II. I'll assume you are a stand-up guy, and that you wouldn't deliberately cheat, and that you've done good research and your data for the K-II is perfect and your mod faithfully reflects your research. Where's the problem?

Well, consider this; not everyone is as standup as you. There will doubtless be people who will take the path you've blazed here, and use it to mod other vehicles to what they think they should be. Shermans too strong and knocking out too many PzIIIs? No problem; just drop the all armour values of the Sherman down to 0, in the same way you knocked out the armour of the K-II mantlet. PzIVs burning too often when they go up against T-34s? No problem; just double all the armour values. And so on.

Now whoever starts a CM H2H scenario is under suspicion - are they using armour mods? Which ones? Do they even know which ones they're using or do they have something installed which they've forgotten about and which is now baked into this PBEM.

 

I believe everything is made by man and is unavoidable to contain errors;

This is, undoubtedly, true, and I am certain that Steve would agree with you too. And your mod is also made by man ;) When everyone is using the same data in CM we can all complain about it but while the playing field might be rough it is at least level. Now, with your mod in the wild, we still know that it's rough, but can't ever know if it's level.

Edited by JonS
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You're obviously either not reading what I wrote, or not comprehending what you read. I did 1, I did 2, I did 3, and I did 4. None of that is the problem, and I do like PzCs open architecture. The problem is that in PzC it is trivially easy to cheat, even inadvertently.

The same thing now applies to CM because of your mod here for the K-II. I'll assume you are a stand-up guy, and that you wouldn't deliberately cheat, and that you've done good research and your data for the K-II is perfect and your mod faithfully reflects your research. Where's the problem?

Well, consider this; not everyone is as standup as you. There will doubtless be people who will take the path you've blazed here, and use it to mod other vehicles to what they think they should be. Shermans too strong and knocking out too many PzIIIs? No problem; just drop the all armour values of the Sherman down to 0, in the same way you knocked out the armour of the K-II mantlet. PzIVs burning too often when they go up against T-34s? No problem; just double all the armour values. And so on.

Now whoever starts a CM H2H scenario is under suspicion - are they using armour mods? Which ones? Do they even know which ones they're using or do they have something installed which they've forgotten about and which is now baked into this PBEM.

I certainly did read, your original point 1 was criticizing the open modding structure of PzC using Wittman's uber tank as an example, stating that it is wrong to give it uber stats resulting it destroying the game play experience. You didn't mention you did change it after. And should I say this proves that it does not destroy game play experiences, except for those that don't wish to be resourceful in the least degree but only like to complain. Your problem with multiplayer was expressed in point 2, which I replied that if a game supports both MP and modding nowadays there would usually be an anti-cheat.

 

When everyone is using the same data in CM we can all complain about it but while the playing field might be rough it is at least level. Now, with your mod in the wild, we still know that it's rough, but can't ever know if it's level.

Which is what I said:

 

Also I suppose that purely from a HvH competition standpoint, it doesn't really matter if the system is correct, as long as everyone is subject to the same one.

And in previous post:

 

However, such an action disturbs the multiplayer community, compounded by the fact that CM HvH is strictly competitive, and not cooperative, and probably the fact that the CM community has never had a data/behavior modding culture. I can understand that. It is a pity, but OK. There are enough games out there that I can edit to my heart's content.

So I get it, and the download had been disabled. So.. you can keep saying "you suck" but I can't do nothing more about it. But none of your suggested examples can be done with this edit, it can only nullify none-hull hitboxes, nothing more. And nothing more from me.

Edited by Skwabie
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Skwabie,

thanks for your efforts.

JonS, IanL,

I don't understand your logic and complaints. Sticking the head into the sand is no solution. Who knows how many players have been cheating and told nobody about it?

If Battlefront wants to prevent cheating in H2H games, they can implement an anti-cheat mechanism.

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    Sticking the head into the sand is no solution. Who knows how many players have been cheating and told nobody about it?

If Battlefront wants to prevent cheating in H2H games, they can implement an anti-cheat mechanism.

I haven't done much if any... But perhaps I'm able to explain which is rather quite simple, the game is designed as unmoddable, the game database is hardcoded in the .exe files, like armor thicknesses, gun penetration data, etc. The exception is textures which is only eye candy. As a result, there's no need to worry about cheating.

If one is super paranoid though there are I suppose super hackers that can reverse engineer executables, But I think that is tin foil hat land and even not, those ppl surely have better things to do than hacking a video game. There are however other problems with open modding and not so easy to address... It would firstly make the developer unhappy, because 1. modders would have created addon vehicles weapons formations maps etc in any era they fancy, like WW1 or vietnam or.. battle of the bulge. So this quite simply creates competition and would hurt sales of CM titles. I think CM would consider this a direct threat to their current business model... 2. Customer support nightmare. ppl like to use mods and often times don't know better, so they create support tickets unaware that mods screwed up the game. Mods tend to do that, they're free of charge and is usually of lower quality and/or isn't 100% compatible with the game because well, modders didn't write the code. They often don't know how some variables and mechanisms in the database work and what changing them would lead to. Furthermore they don't have time to do extensive testing because they have real life duties that put food on the table. So in a nutshell mods tend to create stability problems, and these would end up being a burden to the game devs. 3. Piracy in severe cases. Suppose if the game 3D models or other materials can be openly imported to dev softwares for editing, ppl rather than create mods for the game would be able to re-export it and sell it on the net, which is obviously very bad. Basically these are very valid concerns for a business Imo.

For the community this sometimes tend to lead to "fracture", i.e. one community using one mod pack, another community on another and another community on official dev updates. It is OK when you have a large player base but otherwise it'll be quite hard to have enough ppl to refresh forum threads:P or gather enough bodies for multiplayer. For a novice gamer that just want to play the game the installation/configuration is significantly more difficult and he probably wouldn't have the patience to troubleshoot himself. For the forum culture it would sometimes create bitterness as nobody is entitled to make suggestions or point out bugs.

The freedom of open modding is quite empowering but I am aware of some problems. So as said it is like politics, there are far left far right and middle. I'm like one of the middle guy, CM and the HvH players certainly are far right - my own interpretation of it ofc. There have been suggestions for an in-game encyclopedia to make the system less opague which is very very mildly towards left and they've all been denied. With these said I'll still mod them and make good gaming experience for myself and others who choose so as free choices always have a price tag, but one shouldn't pass on them because of it, I'd know better. Life is too short to waste otherwise!...

Edited by Skwabie
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Has anyone even tried yet if this can be used for cheating in H2H games? From my (limited) technical understanding something would much rather lead to crash of the game than to a useful cheat. I am fairly sure this issue is way overblown.

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Has anyone even tried yet if this can be used for cheating in H2H games? From my (limited) technical understanding something would much rather lead to crash of the game than to a useful cheat. I am fairly sure this issue is way overblown.

Pretty sure it was outta proportion dayz ago :D But I consider we're just talking for talking's sake now, like a chat. Or a pissing contest, whatever it might lead to. It is after all a public forum.:D

Edited by Skwabie
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Back to the main point: where was it verified that CM has a bug regarding mantlets?

The original report is obviously in my first few posts. The detailed statistical testing, historical reference and the convincing of everybody will have to come later. There're a few pictures in the Jentz book to contradict the "hole behind the mantlet" theory. More detailed reference I'm gonna shop some books online and have them shipped here which would take time.

Edited by Skwabie
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My point is that there is no "proof". So, let's keep facts straight. There is a question about the modeling, but there is no "known bug". Note that I'm not taking a pro or con stance, merely trying to keep the initial supposition clearly where it belongs: as a supposition.

IF there is an issue, I'd think it may be present with other vehicles. Regardless, IF there is an issue, I'd expect a patch to rectify it.

The time and effort needed to test it in game is not insignificant. The real-life evidence of qualitative armor resistance of specific locations against specific weapons at specific ranges against a rare vehicle is obviously hard to find...if it even exists at all. 

 

Ken

 

 

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It appears to me he has shown that a certain gun can consistently penetrate/knockout a certain's vehicle armor at a certain place and that removing armor from that spot has the effect that the same gun at the same distance can not consistently penetrate the same spot of armor anymore.

That is probably incorrect or at least unexpected behaviour. Also, the coax not firing from the MG 3D model is clearly a bug.

 

 

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My point is that there is no "proof". So, let's keep facts straight. There is a question about the modeling, but there is no "known bug". Note that I'm not taking a pro or con stance, merely trying to keep the initial supposition clearly where it belongs: as a supposition.

IF there is an issue, I'd think it may be present with other vehicles. Regardless, IF there is an issue, I'd expect a patch to rectify it.

The time and effort needed to test it in game is not insignificant. The real-life evidence of qualitative armor resistance of specific locations against specific weapons at specific ranges against a rare vehicle is obviously hard to find...if it even exists at all. 

 

Ken

 

 

Ok purely from a game engine standpoint, I think the Sherman would be more acceptable to most, it also has overlayed mantlet + turret front and I can run a small test later. ~90mm mantlet and flat unlike Tiger2's complex conical saukopf, don't expect any bounces say 75L/48 @ 750-1000m so shouldn't take long.

Don't have v3.0 though so won't have hit decals.

Edited by Skwabie
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Disregarding the source and most of the comments on the page, then there are some interesting photos of German turrets (looks like a Panther turret). It seems like there is nothing substantial behind the mantle except for the gun mounting and the gun itself.

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/141169-gun-mantlets-do-they-have-an-armour-profile/page-2

 

 

 

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Disregarding the source and most of the comments on the page, then there are some interesting photos of German turrets (looks like a Panther turret). It seems like there is nothing substantial behind the mantle except for the gun mounting and the gun itself.

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/141169-gun-mantlets-do-they-have-an-armour-profile/page-2

 

 

 

TigerI and panther is indeed empty behind. TigerI's caveat is mantlet edge backed by 100mm+ turret armor. Tigerii's using saukopf mantlet similar to those of jagdpanzer, jagdpanther and some stugiii and is a separate piece from turret front. Stuck at work again but can upload some pics from jentz' book when back.

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If your worried about cheating, then we should be worried about Pirates! Yo Ho!

In all seriousness, the fixes are working great and I don't play PBEM. If I ever did, I would take them out of the mod folder. Simple. Just because someone else might not shouldn't affect my ability to enjoy a product to its fullest. So while the "debate" rages over how thick the armor on the Tiger II mantlet is, I'll enjoy a working coax. Thanks Skawbie.

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