Armor topic

[BTR]

Your key word is MUST BE better too, but WHY ? Т-90А is deeply improoved T-72B. New gun, new sights, new turret. But where you heard about significantly reinforced glacis ? Look at the schemes of armor layers of T-72B and T-90A and say, - what difference between it, that one would can maintain protection against CE in two times more, then other ? Thin plates of mithril ? You can calculate estimated glacis protection against CE by known methodic and it can't be more 600 RHAe. Zaloga's calculations gave 540 mm of T-72B mod 1989 glacis w/o ERA against CE. So, 800-1000  of T-90A is unreal.   

Well, T-90A is a deeply improved T-72 obr. 1979, that doesn't exactly take us anywhere. If we consider the past 100 years of armor development in Russia and specifically last 60 of UVZ's production, even year-to-year batches can have improved protection in what seems to be the same layout. T-72 has had 6 known glacis layout iterations over the course of its 36 years of service doubling KE and CE resistance. That's a variant and ~30mm KE every 6 years. T-90's have been in service for 23. To assume capabilities remained still even for the past 15-10 years is a big leap. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by BTR

[antaress73]

Vasily Fofanov and Andrei Tarasenko - thrustworthy Russian and Ukrainian tank specialists consider most Steel Beasts volumes as pure fantasy. I personally asked Tarasenko in his LJ about SB and he just laughed. And, yes, of course T-90AM is just T-90A with Relikt, additional screens and better equipment. No different in armor in export version and domestic. Differences only in equipment and ammunitions - export version of T-90A - T-90S has fire control system like on early T-90 (without "A"). There no any secret alloys in its - usual hard and medium hardness steel and STB. All innovations touch only blocks metal-ceramic packing of turret. According to you I have to demand from developers a bare glacis on BM Oplot impenetrable for Svinets-2, Kornet, M829A4 and direct hit of Death Star, just because our media claimed that Oplot is a best tank in the world ). But reality it is old, slightly modernithed hull of T-80UD with new ERA and euipment. What revolution in alloys could make NII Stali in the mid of 2000th in order to put it on serial tank ? All their new developments implemented in Armata, but T-90 is just upgraded T-72. 

I didnt say that... A kornet or AT-13 would still punch through. But not an RPG or direct-attack javelin or AT-7 . You are implying things I didnt say. If its that weak, no wonder they are looking at the Armata like one of the wonders of the world. Which it is not.

Edited December 21, 2015 by antaress73

[antaress73]

Well, T-90A is a deeply improved T-72 obr. 1979, that doesn't exactly take us anywhere. If we consider the past 100 years of armor development in Russia and specifically last 60 of UVZ's production, even year-to-year batches can have improved protection in what seems to be the same layout. T-72 has had 6 known glacis layout iterations over the course of its 36 years of service doubling KE and CE resistance. That's a variant and ~30mm KE every 6 years. T-90's have been in service for 23. To assume capabilities remained still even for the past 15-10 years is a big leap. 

exactly what I'm saying but more succinctly and effectively  

[VladimirTarasov]

While at it, Could anyone link me to somewhere which shows estimations on the M1A2 armor? (thats reliable please)

[Haiduk]

But "iterations" appeared with every new modification, but not with every year. So this is "average temperature of hospital" %). Т-72B mod.1989, than Т-90 in 1992 and T-90A in 2004-2006. From where 23 years for T-90 ? And take into account decline of military researches in former USSR and Russia, until oil not have started to rise in the mid of 2000th. As I read on Balancer forum, last known glacis improvement of T-72 or T-90 is new back steel plate, but nothing super-puper. So I doubt, that since 1989 rising of armor strength tempo was saved.  

[antaress73]

T-90AM  with Relikt gets penetrated. Everytime  by SKIF (800mm) and AT-13 on upper front Hull .. Upper front hull hit decals are described as superstructure upper Hull (driver's  hatch ?) so maybe its à bug. Even using 540-570mm agaibst CE energy numbers, both these missiles should not punch through upper Hull front   because of Relikt.

[Haiduk]

T-90AM  with Relikt gets penetrated. Everytime  by SKIF (800mm) and AT-13 on upper front Hull .. Upper front hull hit decals are described as superstructure upper Hull (driver's  hatch ?) so maybe its à bug. Even using 540-570mm agaibst CE energy numbers, both these missiles should not punch through upper Hull front   because of Relikt.

Driver's hatch ? Not surprising. On top picture with red shown frontal zones unprotected by ERA in T-90AM. As you can see, zone, which in CM names "superstructure upper hull" really has not full protection

 

[BTR]

But "iterations" appeared with every new modification, but not with every year. So this is "average temperature of hospital" %). 

Not correct. Discounting pre-production and prototyping every major service upgrade (A, B), has had two known glacis reconfigurations within its production life. That is excluding ERA and add-on external plates.  

23 years is aggregate domestic service life of the T-90 lineup, both ob. 188 and ob. 188A1. It has been some time since 1992 already.

PS, the picture above is inaccurate, as top turret clearly has ERA on the T-90MS.

Edited December 22, 2015 by BTR

[antaress73]

No not only driver's hatch.. That I can understand , weak spot . But impacts and penetrations on  upper Hull where there is clearly relikt , by SKIF and at-13 .

[DougPhresh]

Not to detract too much from the specs discussion, I agree that T-90 seems to under perform. If the US is given APS and ERA which they do not presently have under the assumption that they would rush procure that equipment in the lead-up to war, then would the Russians not also have the latest APFSDS and HEAT rounds?

Is the T-80 in service with either Russia or Ukraine?

[BTR]

Latest rounds are available to Russian side in CMBS already. 

T-80's in their variants are in service with Russian and Ukraine. 

 

[antaress73]

They do have the latest sabot and HEAT rounds in the game, svinets-2 APFDS is the very latest that the autoloader can accomodate .  It  can penetrate 730-750mm RHA at 2000 meters and  maybe 800mm + at close range. The  other new rounds are for the new autoloader  in the armata and are longer. They do not fit  the autoloader in the T-90. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2015 by antaress73

[Haiduk]

Nobody knows effectiveness of Svinets-2 or M829A4 on modern ERA examples - Duplet or Relikt. Best way to avoid speculations would be throwing both away and using more closer to reality current APFSDS ammunition 3BM42 Mango and M829A3 as most mass types. Ok, let Svintets-2 remains for T-90AM only and give to this tank bigger rarity. No any information that Russia launched mass producing of this ammunition, since in priority now Armata with its Grifel APFSDS. For UKR tanks situation in real more pooor then reflected in the game. Main APFSDS now is Zakolka, no DU Vant in T-64BV and Mango in Oplot/Bulat. But as for me better to use real equipment, this will force player more carry on about tactic.  

Edited December 22, 2015 by Haiduk

[Wieking]

NII "Stali" know.

They make Relickt and they make this illustration

as you can see Relickt can protect T-90 from M829A2 щт 1000m (it is 750mm KE penitration).
I think that is official position of NII "Stali"

[antaress73]

HNII "Stali" know.

They make Relickt and they make this illustration

as you can see Relickt can protect T-90 from M829A2 щт 1000m (it is 750mm KE penitration).
I think that is official position of NII "Stali"

he was talking about M829A4 , M829A3 is actual round in service. A2 is in reserve status I guess.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Not to detract too much from the specs discussion, I agree that T-90 seems to under perform. If the US is given APS and ERA which they do not presently have under the assumption that they would rush procure that equipment in the lead-up to war, then would the Russians not also have the latest APFSDS and HEAT rounds?

The ERA that is in game is in service, but provided as "Theater Provided Equipment," in essence in storage until  someone decides Abrams going somewhere need the ERA arrays attached.  The APS is an off the shelf model that largely has existing engineering done on Abrams integration.  Small leap.  As BTR already pointed out, the rounds in game are already the high end of what is available/planned for the short term,  you would need an entirely fictional program for something more potent to exist. 

 

As to the last post, the M829A2 is a mid-90's generation round and would not likely be the service round in a Ukrainian conflict.  Also I would not place a high degree of faith in anyone's, US, Russian, etc's infographics.  

[Wieking]

The ERA that is in game is in service, but provided as "Theater Provided Equipment," in essence in storage until  someone decides Abrams going somewhere need the ERA arrays attached.  The APS is an off the shelf model that largely has existing engineering done on Abrams integration.  Small leap.  As BTR already pointed out, the rounds in game are already the high end of what is available/planned for the short term,  you would need an entirely fictional program for something more potent to exist. 

 

As to the last post, the M829A2 is a mid-90's generation round and would not likely be the service round in a Ukrainian conflict.  Also I would not place a high degree of faith in anyone's, US, Russian, etc's infographics.  

we have not more competent source of information than oficial infographics.

Then

I am sory for my english but I jump to my conclusion, because of no one did it befor.

Relict increase level of protection agains KE in 1,4. http://www.niistali.ru/products/military/relict/relikt_t72m_t90sm_bmpt/

M829A2 = 750 mm penitration on 1000 m.

750mm/1.4 = 536mm equivalent. That is own KE armor of T-90.

If M829A4 penetrates 880mm at 2000 meters then T-90 must have 628mm KE oun armor equivalent to survive on this distance.

 

 

[Bydax]

Ok, let Svintets-2 remains for T-90AM only and give to this tank bigger rarity. No any information that Russia launched mass producing of this ammunition, since in priority now Armata with its Grifel APFSDS.

3БМ-60 «Svinec-2» in production since 2013.

Протокол заседания Совета директоров № 4 от 30.04.2013

Повестка дня: 

1. Об избрании председательствующего на заседании Совета директоров Общества.

2. О заключении сделки - государственного контракта на поставку 125-мм выстрелов с бронебойно-подкалиберным снарядом «Свинец-2», которая имеет стоимость, превышающую 100 000 000 (сто миллионов) рублей.

Принятые решения:

1. Избрать Алешина Алексея Владиславовича председательствующим на заседании Совета директоров Общества.

2. Принять решение о заключении, в случае победы в закрытом аукционе, сделки государственного контракта на поставку 125-мм выстрелов с бронебойно-подкалиберным снарядом «Свинец-2» для нужд Министерства обороны Российской Федерации, с начальной (максимальной) ценой 

1 809 771 790 (один миллиард восемьсот девять миллионов семьсот семьдесят одна тысяча семьсот девяносто) рублей, на условиях документации об аукционе и заявки на участие в аукционе, сформированной Обществом.

[antaress73]

What does it say ? The Russian text ?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Relict increase level of protection agains KE in 1,4. http://www.niistali.ru/products/military/relict/relikt_t72m_t90sm_bmpt/

M829A2 = 750 mm penitration on 1000 m.

750mm/1.4 = 536mm equivalent. That is own KE armor of T-90.

If M829A4 penetrates 880mm at 2000 meters then T-90 must have 628mm KE oun armor equivalent to survive on this distance.

But here's the rub: Relict does not necessarily reduce all APFSDS rounds by the same 40%. The general opinion on M829A4 is that it doesn't have more raw penetration than A3, but it is less affected by ERA.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

But here's the rub: Relict does not necessarily reduce all APFSDS rounds by the same 40%. The general opinion on M829A4 is that it doesn't have more raw penetration than A3, but it is less affected by ERA.

Which cuts to the heart of why measuring ERA in effective RHA is tricky.  It isn't just like you now have 300 MM RHA tacked on, you have a thing that if properly functional and aligned against threat weapons might have an effect.  Against "heavy" sabot or other penetrator side modification it might in some cases have next to no effect at all depending on the round.

The graphic is nice and all, but it is a graphic designed to show you why you should be chucking all your K-5 in the trash and buying all new ERA to defeat American imperialists.  It isn't a technical drawing or something.  

[Wieking]

But here's the rub: Relict does not necessarily reduce all APFSDS rounds by the same 40%. The general opinion on M829A4 is that it doesn't have more raw penetration than A3, but it is less affected by ERA.

Yes, but that is promotional publication. If we have underrporting data in promotion then that is anti-promotion.

So I think that is upper bound of potency

[BTR]

What does it say ? The Russian text ?

Just procurement notes for Svinets-2 rounds. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by BTR

[Haiduk]

 

3БМ-60 «Svinec-2» in production since 2013.

I saw this document, but it says only "to start procedure of closed auction among ammunition produsers and WHEN this will be done, to make deal with manufacturer about Svinets-2 producing on 100 000 000 rubles". According to Wiki US M829F3 cost 8500$. In conditions of Russian enormous corruption, when prices on state indents rising up to the heaven for dividing of income between managment and state officials (for western users, this I try to explain Russian corruption slang word "otkat"), price on Svinets-2  hardly will be lower than US vis a vis. Even probably higher. So, let auction is done and Svinets-2 producing started after all start and adjusting works and bureacratic procedures in 2014. 1$ = 32 Rubles in Jan 2014. Let cost of Svinets-2 is equal to M829A3 (very optimistic variant). So, one Svinets-2 will cost 8500*32= 272 000 Ru. Ammunition program funded on 100 000 000/ 272000 = 367 APFSDS. Ok, let even 500. Ammunition load of one tank is 12 APFSDS, so 500 shells is just for 41 tank. Some more, than tank battalion :). 

Russia has 218 Т-90А (on 2011 year), number in 550 tanks I think is doubt, so take less number. So for all this need to produce 2616 Svinets-2 for one ammunition load only and as mininum to have five ammunition load as reserve - 13080 shells.  Oh ! I forgot about T-72B3 ! Russian Wiki says about 1000 such tanks, but this number also very doubt. Do you imagine quantity of Svinets-2 for this armada ? Which need to produce up to 2017, but in conditions of sanctions, crisis and 71 Rubles per 1$ ?   

Edited December 23, 2015 by Haiduk

[BTR]

2013 RUB to USD was 31:1, so in fact if we take April, the total amount of this contract would have been 57.745.277,06 USD. Even if we take your "otkat" scenario equaling 3BM60 to M829A3, that is around 60K rounds. Have a go at it yourself. If we take a much more historically accurate average of Russian equipment being cheaper, then even more rounds are in question. Therefore, it is very plausible to have tank battalions supplied uniquely with Svinets rounds. 

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by BTR