Knaust Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 Yes...I know..aarrgghh isnt a topics..I didnt find out anyhing about that with the search function! In my game with Goanna I succeeded in getting 4 Shermans in the first 7 turns. Then the tide turned....he got one Stug..ok..np..then I placed one of my 2 remaining StuGs in a position to possibly engage a Sherman(normal) at more than 450mt. I thought that this engagement was favourable to the StuG (see armour and penetration of these tanks)... Ok...Sherman moves on... i say ok ok..come on...come on...Sherman fires...StuG out! Oh well..Steve, Fionn, any guys from BTS please tell me how many chances are that this could happen..hehe Goanna....I had to yell out my sorrow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest phoenix Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 As much a chance was that my Sherman that was moving at "flank speed" sideways down a hill managed to hit and knock out a STug at 450 meters I'd imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 I know how you feel. It has happened to us all sometimes. Remember good tactics ONLY increase the odds of success. They don't guarantee it. Sometimes even with 10 to 1 odds in your favour you are going to roll that 1 and fail. Now onto the more related questions. Was your StuG buttoned or MGed so as to kind of startle the crew? I'm willing to bet one or the other occured. Was the Sherman moving quickly, laterally across its front? Here's a little tip . Against a turetless AG the only thing more effective than popping up in front of it is to race quickly across its LOS laterally at close range. It simply can't track quickly enough to fire at you Due to a little bit of bad luck you actually put the StuG into a bad position without realising it. If you are facing a StuG and do some very qwuick lateral movement across its frontal field of fire the odds of you getting hit are very low. Its not a guarantee you won't get hit but it does occur. Also remember that a StuG only has a traverse left and right of a few degrees. If the Sherman was 15 degrees off to one flank then the odds are the StuG would have to rotate in place to bring the gun to lay on target. End result... the StuG loses precious seconds if the enemy pops up anywhere except directly in front of the StuG. These things only cost you maybe 2 or 3 seconds BUT those 2 or 3 seconds cost you that StuG. Looking at the StuG and Sherman armour penetration diagrams etc is only the first 50% of tactical decision-making. The other 50% requires a precise knowledge of the vehicles involved and their capabilities. Now, I can't say for sure exactly what happened but I do notice that many people handle a StuG like its a turetless Sherman. By doing this they lose tremendous advantages and incur massive disadvantages they probably aren't even aware of. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted December 30, 1999 Share Posted December 30, 1999 One thing I try to do with stugs is never have them waiting for the enemy to show up if you think they see you and have a choice about where they can pop up. Only if you know they can only show up in your front arc should you wait for them. (In current game against ss panzerleader, for example, one of his shemans is behind a house. My stug can hit both sides of the house and is in full defilade to his other remaining sherman on the other side of the map) But unless you can get a nice situation like that, the best thing to do seems to be to stay behind the hill, identify the location of the enemy tanks, then advance to your hull down position behind the hill straight at the enemy. Much of using stugs seems to be in the limiting of los (both the enemy's and yours) as much as possible. -John Hough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stabsfeldwebel Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 i can sympathise (spelling?) with ya what i usually try to do is to cooperate with my infantry on CE playing the germans. If the americans are gonna rush tanks over that hill, rush your infantry into them. 2 stugs and couple squads with fausts are more than a match for 3 or 4 shermans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stabsfeldwebel Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 But of course i'm a little bit more of the blitzkreig mindset than most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goanna Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 OK, I better weigh in here since these are my M4's Knaust is talking about. I think we have a very good case of Lady Luck being a fickle bitch here. In the first 7 turns, Knaust did knock out 4 of my M4's, but in each case, my M4s got shots off at the StuGs which were generally directly in front of him (within 10 degrees). In one case, an M4 coming through the scattered trees on the US right and above the StuG took 5 shots at the StuG before getting roasted (one ricochet). He got me after one range finder. So, my last tank is on the long hillside to the US left in front of the two story farm. How I got that StuG which is about 150 m in front of the swamp is this. First, I shot my medium machine gun (located in the US woods) at him to make sure he was buttoned. Then I moved my M4 up that hillside partially obscured by the hill, intending to get hulldown and to his right enough to be out of that 30 degree arc at the front. However, the M4 commander decided to target him while still going up the hill. He made a brief pause, cranked the turret around and shot once. it nailed him. Surely some luck in that, but what comes around, goes around. Now he is moving his last StuG up the road toward the church, and my Turn 11 orders are in. If luck stays with me another turn or so, I may not even need her from then on. ------------------ desert rat wannabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 One of the problems with playing CM is the expectations attached to German armor. In general, there is a mystical belief that pretty much any German tank should win in a match against pretty much any US tank. I suffered from this too at first, but I got over it about a year ago during Alpha The thing is that CM simulates FAR more stuff, and far more realistically, than any wargame in the past. This has put CM at odds with perceptions, but in harmony with history. For example, turret rotation speed MATTERS in CM, in a MAJOR way. SP doesn't make you care a flying fig about this because it isn't simulated. CC simualtes it, but from our experience (and that of others) there are problems associated with this. Not to knock these other games, but their shortcomings have reinforced the general misconception that German tanks are so much better than Allied ones. The StuG is a VERY difficult vehicle to handle correctly. It is not surprising that I have seen many threads pop up about StuGs having problems killing or being killed "too easily". The fact is that the StuG was *not* designed to be a tank killer. It was supposed to be a close infantry support vehicle that, through a series of production issues, was thrust into the AT role. It is also an AFV that changed very little since before the war started. What I mean by that is compare a StuG G with a StuG A. They look very similar. Compare a Panther to a PzIV. No similarities. Heck, compare the StuG to the Hetzer! Totally different. The lesson here is that the StuG is a difficult tank to master. However, if you DO master it, the Allies have much to fear as its gun is VERY powerful. Personally, I lump the StuG in with vehicles like the Nashorn and Marders. They can kill anything they can hit (in the West at least), but aren't up to taking much punishment! Contrast this with the Jagdpanther and you will see the difference. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 12-31-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted December 31, 1999 Share Posted December 31, 1999 Steve, Why not include a Jagdpanther in a gold demo scenario so we can compare the difference? It would be nice to see a purpose built TD in action. Jason And Britsh vehicles/units. And engineers. And armored cars. And fall or winter weather. And rain or snow. And some REALLY big artillery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted December 31, 1999 Author Share Posted December 31, 1999 ok buddies... first of all i have to say that I was lucky with Goanna in the first 7 turns...then justice prevailed! now to Fionn, BTS, Hough and others i have to say this: that poor stug suffered first a upper hull ricochet from a Sherman at 389mts I positioned that same stug with its front in the right direction where the sherm could probably appeared (so no gun rotation or 30° arc hindrance)and at a distance of some 450mts (so no problem to target it when speeding fast laterally) the stug was opened up...but at 462 mts he was boomed up so what we can say by this? first..lady Luck is impartial! second..u can never learn from experience! Goanna np with your (my) luck..only, as I just said, I had to yell out my sorrow to the whole world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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