Javelin vs Laser Designator

[TheForwardObserver]

I've taken to equipping my FIST/FO teams with a javelin launcher because the javelin sight provides significant spotting improvements over both the binoculars and laser designator rangefinder.  Infantry units moving in the open are easily spotted at distances of over 2,000 meters with javelin equipped.  To test this collocate two FIST teams at the same OP, one with javelin, one with standard binos/lldr and compare spotting.

CM should consider implementing an in game model for the laser designator rangefinder, with a tripod and a set up time, and the enhanced spotting characteristics of the javelin launcher.  The perks of better target location (spotting) would be offset slightly by the time consumed when establishing and relocating from a proper Observation Post.  

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

I like it. I may float that idea when the time comes.

On a related note, does anyone know if the Russian 1D22 Laser Target Designator/Rangefinder has a thermal sight or is it just day/night?

[TheForwardObserver]

you know i was going to jump to the conclusion that the 1D22 probably takes an attachable night sight, similar in concept to the an/tas-4 30lbs IR night sight we used to mount on the G/VLLD, however, browsing the more modern KBP russian kit-- like the malakhit fire control system and it mentions a thermal capability for the laser designator with 16 lbs load difference between day and night.

[Vanir Ausf B]

"round-the-clock operation (provided by thermal imager)."

The next question is if the Malakhit is or is planned to be fielded by the Russian Army. The only information I can find on it is from the manufacturer's website. Most references to Russian LLDRs that I have found are for the 1D22.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B

[Vanir Ausf B]

The 1D26 LLDR also has a thermal sight, but again I don't know if it has been adapted into service.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1D26_laser_designator-range_finder_with_1PN79M-3_thermal_imaging_sight_at_Engineering_Technologies_2012.jpg

 

[TheForwardObserver]

In theory any LLDR with the right range of PRFs should be able to support the Krasnopol family of munitions, which are designed by and compliant with other KBP systems such as the malakhit and other more modern fire control systems-- however i'm not having much luck tracking down the model numbers of KBPs more modern equipment, or data on their proliferation under recent russian modernization projects.  between ukraine and syria though, there's plenty of footage to evaluate for clues, so i'll keep my eyes open.

Edited October 2, 2015 by TheForwardObserver

[TheForwardObserver]

UPDATE:  After playing a few H2H real time matches, I've identified a possible problem with my 'super javelin vision' FIST teams.   In short, the javelin equipped FIST teams seems to be triggering my opponent's APS Abrams' laser warning, providing the Abrams tanks with notification when to go mobile to avoid an incoming arty mission.  Now if had some Copperhead munitions this wouldn't be an issue, but the in game lack of Copperheads rests squarely on the Pentagon not CM.

Anyways; Going to test it-- I need to identify whether i'm incorrect, as I guess it could be that the LLDRs are setting off the Abrams' alarm bells. (?)

[TheForwardObserver]

After testing I do not believe the javelin or LLDRs are tripping the Abrams laser warning, and my opponent was likely receiving laser warnings due to the presence of one of my Bradleys.  (not determined in test, whether FS/COLT vehicle lasers trip laser warnings, as one of those had been present also)

[Bydax]

 

 

The next question is if the Malakhit is or is planned to be fielded by the Russian Army.

KM-15 "Malakhit" (development completed in 2005) is part of Krasnopol/Gran/Kitolov Guided Weapon Systems. 

 

The 1D26 LLDR also has a thermal sight, but again I don't know if it has been adapted into service.

LTsD-3 Atoll/1D26 (accepted into service in 2004) has only night sight but LTsD-3M/1D26M, LTsD-3M1 and LTsD-4(-1/2/3) Vizir/1D29 have thermal sights (LTsD-2M, LTsD-3M, LTsD-4, LTsD-4-1, LTsD-4-2, LTsD-4-3, KDU-1 and 9V9003 accepted into service in november 2010).

[TheForwardObserver]

I've learned through further testing that the LLDR does trip vehicle laser warnings.

[TheForwardObserver]

further observations/comments/questions to toss into the ether for the hive mind:

-American Fire Support Vehicles only carry ammo for their on-board weapons.  Maybe this was done to discourage getting FIST/COLT teams into contact?  Thats fine.  Regardless-- should be noted FIST vehicles do have space for an extra box of 5.56 and I do believe at least 1 of the russian artillery observation vehicles already carries extra small arms ammo.

- All of the 'individually' purchaseable US Fire Support personnel are FISTs and carry LLDRs rather than there being any purchaseable non laser equipped FO teams like in line platoon formations.  No big deal- but if you want Fire Support personnel that will not trip enemy armor laser warnings you must source them from the line platoons or alter your targeting tactics (lase adjacent point etc)

-In some of my testing it appeared that teams that had called in a fire mission could process the mission faster if they retreated to the safety of a Fire Support vehicle while waiting for the firing battery to commence firing.  The bonus appeared to be limited to troops who'd mounted the vehicle--though if this is the case it might be nice to provide this bonus to dismounts within a certain radius or level of contact from the FIST vehicle

-The triple 7 howitzers are more expensive, but take longer to fire than the Paladins (I assume this is done to reflect the time needed to establish and set up/tear down in an enviroment with a persistent counter battery presence).  It might also seem that despite being equipped with the same ammo 777s achieve better effects against the Abrams 'even when using EXCAL.'  In game both have little trouble immobilizing the Abrams but knockouts are murkier.  I can't comment on the effectiveness of 155mm howitzers against the Abrams specifically in real life but most Fisters can confirm that at least on the range 155mm direct hits can send the turrets of other lesser tanks asunder.

-Lastly there should be a smoke round available for use in games where the maneuver commander is concerned about the enviromental effects and legal consequences of White Phosphorus munitions.  On this point- I am of course just kidding.

[MOS:96B2P]

further observations/comments/questions to toss into the ether for the hive mind:

- All of the 'individually' purchaseable US Fire Support personnel are FISTs and carry LLDRs rather than there being any purchaseable non laser equipped FO teams like in line platoon formations.  No big deal- but if you want Fire Support personnel that will not trip enemy armor laser warnings you must source them from the line platoons or alter your targeting tactics (lase adjacent point etc)

-In some of my testing it appeared that teams that had called in a fire mission could process the mission faster if they retreated to the safety of a Fire Support vehicle while waiting for the firing battery to commence firing.  The bonus appeared to be limited to troops who'd mounted the vehicle--though if this is the case it might be nice to provide this bonus to dismounts within a certain radius or level of contact from the FIST vehicle

 

The LLDR / laser warning information is interesting.  I may have to revisit my TACSOPs on this one.  Below are notes from an old test I did.  There is a slight benefit to using command vehicles.  This benefit does not apply to the WWII titles.  The test was conducted with veteran teams.  When the experience level is green or conscript the FFE is longer.  

In CM Black Sea v1.00 Engine 3 I had the following teams request fire support from the same 105mm howitzer battery both in and out of the command track.  All teams had the same soft factors, Experience: veteran / Motivation: normal / Leadership 0 / Fitness: fit.  The following are the results.                   

                                   Radio /PDA                      Stryker Cmd. Veh.

US BN. HQ                 10 minutes                             9 minutes

US Co. HQ                  10 minutes                             9 minutes

US Plt. HQ                  10 minutes                             9 minutes

US FO                           6 minutes                             5 minutes

[TheForwardObserver]

The LLDR / laser warning information is interesting.  I may have to revisit my TACSOPs on this one.  Below are notes from an old test I did.  There is a slight benefit to using command vehicles.  This benefit does not apply to the WWII titles.  The test was conducted with veteran teams.  When the experience level is green or conscript the FFE is longer.  

In CM Black Sea v1.00 Engine 3 I had the following teams request fire support from the same 105mm howitzer battery both in and out of the command track.  All teams had the same soft factors, Experience: veteran / Motivation: normal / Leadership 0 / Fitness: fit.  The following are the results.                   

 

                                   Radio /PDA                      Stryker Cmd. Veh.

 

US BN. HQ                 10 minutes                             9 minutes

 

US Co. HQ                  10 minutes                             9 minutes

 

US Plt. HQ                  10 minutes                             9 minutes

 

US FO                           6 minutes                             5 minutes

 

Indeed.  I have noticed in the past that units calling for fire from some vehicles receive a mission processing time boost, and of course the crew calling for fire in a COLT vehicle have the lowest times available-- but what I've found, unless I'm mistaken, is that a unit that calls the mission from outside the vehicle can run into to an unexposed vehicle while waiting for splash and still benefit from the time boost.  Of course you still have to run them back to the OP for eyes on during the adjustment phase.  If this saves you a minute without having to expose the vehicle-- that could be worth using.  

Now if the developers were to approach me and say "TFO, today is your lucky day, we would love to hear your thoughts about this relatively benign aspect of our game." I would suggest that the speed of mission boost wielded by a FIST/COLT vehicle, which possibly exists to simulate the advantages in self location, distant targeting, deconflicting, and clearing Fires that an FSE/COLT/FIST can leverage over a dismounted FO party (operating under the oppressive regime of an FSO demanding centralized control over his FOs) be shared by FIST personnel within the vehicles' formation and within lets say close visual or audio range.

Now the skeptic may say, "TFO, why?"  and to the skeptic I would say that it boils down to lasers and target engagement range.  Without the presence of laser guided munitions that require ground based terminal guidance, and without the need to acquire targets at very long range there is little good reason to expose a FIST/COLT vehicle long enough to call for and adjust an effective mission.  It is because of this and my 'personal refusal to use drones for target acquisition' I'd suggest enhancing the vehicle's ability to speed up the calls for fire from the line FOs or dismounted COLTs they support.

[MOS:96B2P]

 

<Snip> what I've found, unless I'm mistaken, is that a unit that calls the mission from outside the vehicle can run into to an unexposed vehicle while waiting for splash and still benefit from the time boost.  Of course you still have to run them back to the OP for eyes on during the adjustment phase.  If this saves you a minute without having to expose the vehicle-- that could be worth using. <Snip>  

my 'personal refusal to use drones for target acquisition' I'd suggest enhancing the vehicle's ability to speed up the calls for fire from the line FOs or dismounted COLTs they support.

Hmmm ...... I did not know a team could start the fire mission outside the vehicle and then go back to the vehicle and get the time boost.  I will have to put that on my list of things to check out.  And by adjusting rounds you mean the initial spotting rounds .......... and then of course later if you adjust the mission onto a new target?  Sounds kind of cool.

Have to ask.  Why don't you use drones for target acquisition?  When I play PBEM as the US I seldom use drones but that is because the Russian Tunguskas usually just blow them out of the sky.  (Except for the most expensive US drone and that one is to expensive in most PBEM Quick Battles).  I do use them when I play as the Russians against the US. 

[TheForwardObserver]

Have to ask.  Why don't you use drones for target acquisition?  When I play PBEM as the US I seldom use drones but that is because the Russian Tunguskas usually just blow them out of the sky.  (Except for the most expensive US drone and that one is to expensive in most PBEM Quick Battles).  I do use them when I play as the Russians against the US. 

 

I feel like drones offer an unfair degree of persistent ISR against vehicles.  And I'll admit I'm uncomfortable with drones taking away jobs from hard working pixel troops.

[MOS:96B2P]

I feel like drones offer an unfair degree of persistent ISR against vehicles.  And I'll admit I'm uncomfortable with drones taking away jobs from hard working pixel troops.

Okay got it.  LOL.  

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

-Lastly there should be a smoke round available for use in games where the maneuver commander is concerned about the enviromental effects and legal consequences of White Phosphorus munitions.  On this point- I am of course just kidding.

Never change.  

[TheForwardObserver]

Wish I'd titled this thread differently.  Maybe something like... "Some... Forward Observations"

-My initial point about providing improved spotting gear to FIST personnel seemed to get reinforced over the last few games against my battle buddy.  Playing in the rain, both of us found our infantry (split squads as well as whole) far superior at spotting than their assigned company FO/FIST personnel.  I can only assume this is due to the presence of Acogs/DM rifle/M25 (and thermals of various stripes).  This has the unfortunate side effect of making Forward Observers unable to observe much of anything, a rather ironic state of affairs for the group of lads (soon to be lads and ladies) that goes by "the eyes of death."

-Now obviously I am biased in favor of FOs, but it is fairly typical for Observers to have access to Acogs/thermals etc as they are expected to have the capacity and equiment to work 'independently' of their maneuver component at all levels-- at the platoon level, an infantry PL with his head on straight will trust his FO to position himself where he has optimal view of the battlefield. COLTs, as a brigade level asset will have even better access to kit.

-Now long story short *everyone* wants to be able to see better-- my baseline point is that FOs should see better.  There appear to be a few routes to achieving this within the realm of real world possibilities and 'for he today that agrees with me shall be my brother;  be he ne'er so vile.'

-Lastly I do concede Combat Mission is the best war game out there and will remain so even without my input

[TheForwardObserver]

Update to the record;

-I'd mentioned the lack of personal weapon ammo supplies in American Fire Support Vehicles- I've noticed that the Stryker Fire Support Vehicle carries 1000 rounds of 5.56 and an AT-4, I think that amount is just right, would be great to see that in a BFIST

 

[TheForwardObserver]

Token screengrab of my FIST with Javelin (the house rules I use don't allow Javelins with missiles, but the launchers may be carried for spotting benefits)

FIST2.bmp

Edited March 26, 2016 by TheForwardObserver

[newplayer]

On 25 March 2016 at 11:19 PM, TheForwardObserver said:

Token screengrab of my FIST with Javelin (the house rules I use don't allow Javelins with missiles, but the launchers may be carried for spotting benefits)

FIST2.bmp

off topic but what reskin mod is that

[gnarly]

On 26/03/2016 at 10:19 AM, TheForwardObserver said:

Token screengrab of my FIST with Javelin (the house rules I use don't allow Javelins with missiles, but the launchers may be carried for spotting benefits)

 

 

Those are some very specific house rules!!!

[Abdolmartin]

1 hour ago, gnarly said:

Those are some very specific house rules!!!

Actually they feel more like "prison" rules rather than "house" rules.

[TheForwardObserver]

1 hour ago, newplayer said:

off topic but what reskin mod is that

Those are my own.  I'm not great.  I thought the boot gaiters were a nice touch though.  Still a work in progress, I'm more devoted to a Falklands War mod I've been working on since CMBN.

 

1 hour ago, gnarly said:

Those are some very specific house rules!!!

Tip of the iceberg.  The full rules are; Real time, 2 hours. Map sizes are nothing smaller than 2 km by 2 km (usually shoot for larger).  Meeting engagement (modified starting zones pre-agreed upon which can be as large or small as we choose).  Battle size huge for max points and with rarity disabled-- but all troops and vehicles must be set to elite, fanatic, +2 leadership.  This allows for lavish spending on whatever you like but prevents the presence of thousands of troops.  Zero drones.  One attack aircraft of the non-anti tank variety allowed, and one MANPAD team however there is no limit on any vehicles so you can bring extra ammo.  Finally, no javelin missiles, meaning designated javelin ammo guys collect all the ammo from the Bradleys and are placed in the rear of the map.  The Javelins are then acquired after this dance is performed.  My battle buddy and I always play American forces vs American for what it's worth

 

4 minutes ago, Abdolmartin said:

Actually they feel more like "prison" rules rather than "house" rules.

See above for the complete set of prison rules

[TheForwardObserver]

Played some more this past weekend, suffered my first crushing defeat.  For visualization purposes the map is a heavily modded version of Interdiction, extended in size- my opponent holds the map side with what we'll call 'Big Round Top' for those familiar.  

Now I left the MECH at home and brought light infantry and steel coffins, aka humvees.  Figured I'd establish my FLOT deep into the map with unprecedented speed, surprising my enemy and impressing upon him the artificial need to meet me and counter through bold, yet risky maneuever-- maneuver which would see him frantically funnelling armor into the death channels created by my TOW equipped dismounted Weapons Company in support by fire and overwatch positions in the rear.  TOWs play a significant role in our games as the maps are massive and javelins aren't present-- but TOWs are easily spotted and are slow to tear down, and so in a sense point both ways.   Long story short, my opponent, a tanker by trade, stacked with armor, and cognoscenti of the threat of my TOWs, conservatively maneuvered his Abrams Company, overwhelmed my infantry, and initiated contact on my Weapons Company from favorable ground.  At this point he merely had to keep his armor moving and pay attention to tell tale adjustment rounds to seal my fate.  I am rattled, my lifetime leadership score has taken a hit- and I feel a metaphysical shift in my experience level from Elite to whatever imperfect rubbish is beneath Elite.  

That being said I have some more Forward Observations that I might write up here in a second post-- if i recover my morale.  Per usual, it's all Fire Support chatter--but one thing before I forget-- I think ATGM humvees are being tallied or displayed in the same end game screen category as tanks rather than being grouped with the lighter armored vehicles.

Edited April 12, 2016 by TheForwardObserver