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remyb1998

why is the game so expensive

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Here's something that both dates me and proves that CM isn't an expensive game.

In 1984 I purchased Gary Grigsby's War In Russia from the relatively new SSI. It came on a single 5.25" floppy disk and it used something like 48kb of RAM. It looked like this:

war_in_russia_2.gif

I paid $85 for it, which in today's money is $195.24 (according to the CPI calculator). I somehow managed to pay for this out of my own pocket from delivering newspapers. I know that not all countries have a similar standard of living and purchasing power that we Americans have, but most of our customers live in countries that do. $55 is not out of line with reality for most. For the rest, I think you have bigger problems than the cost of our games to worry about.

Steve

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Greedy? So I guess that means I'm filthy rich? Hooray! I can't wait to tell my wife! I'm sure she'll be happy to know things have changed. But before I do that, can you please point me to the bank account where apparently I've stashed all my ill gotten gains?

Our mission statement is not to have the most number of people playing our games as possible. If it were, we'd give them away for free (and then promptly go out of business). Instead, I'd rather have 1 person paying $55 than 5 people paying $10. Or as more likely the case, 1.5 people paying $10. Wargames do not sell better if they are priced lower. You could no more get the average gamer to buy a wargame if it was cheap (i.e. way below market average) than you could get a heavy metal music listener to buy Brittany Spears at any price.

Sigh... unfortunately basic business sense and understanding of the fundamentals of economics is it should be. On the other hand, it's one of the reasons we've been in business for more than 15 years without much competition. So there is an upside ;)

Steve

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"Greed" is used when someone thinks they can extort something from YOU in order to give it to THEM. Work, and the freedom to self-value your own labor, is a concept fraught with opportunity and risk. Those who are afraid of the risk take the opportunity to try to take your labor for themselves.

 

I don't like the price of new cars. Those manufacturers are so greedy. They should cut the price in half. Back in '60, a new car cost 1/10 of what they cost today. It isn't "fair".

 

By using terms such as "fair" and "greed", they try to impose a false morality on the marketplace, and thereby upon the free laborer. You want more money? Work harder, work longer, work smarter. Or, in many cases, just work. How about I look at your possessions, meager though they may be, which you have earned through your labor (or been given by a government which coerced the wealth from the productive members of society and transferred some of it to you), and tell you which possessions of yours that I deserve? If you refuse to give them over to me, you're just being "greedy".

 

I love redistributionists. Or thieves, as they used to be called.

 

And, yes, this comes from someone who once bought diapers and formula on credit cards and went hungry on alternate days, and I'd almost shed a tear when I had to break a $20...

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Can I just say, I was the biggest fan of the old engine CMx1 series and I never bought any of your new engine CM series because of its low accessibility (no steam purchase) and high or shall I say greedy price and I know many other people who would've bought the game if it was otherwise.

 

I think discussions about price don't get anywhere. Price is very subjective and everybody has a choice to buy or not to buy. Sports cars cost hundreds of thousands, but are they expensive? For those, who have money it's nothing, but for those who don't have such money, it will look expensive. But the fact, that battlefront is in business for more than 15 years, developing essentially the same game, says that their business and pricing model works. And in comparison to other war games, CM is kind of a sports car. Not the fastest, not the shiniest, but very unique. 

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I have always thought its pretty simple...if the game is too expensive for you, its probably not the game for you.  Especially when a number of other people don't agree.  The price is an investment to keep the expansions coming.  For almost all regular players, that is an investment well worth it.

 

For those who are used to games where the graphics are the centerpiece, it probably looks expensive because with with those games, you just have to wait a couple months to a steep discount.

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...I never bought any of your new engine CM series because of its low accessibility (no steam purchase) and high or shall I say greedy price and I know many other people who would've bought the game if it was otherwise.

 

Well, recently someone told me about the recent Gary Grigsby's War in the East game. Which is on Steam.

Which costs $60.99

 

And that's an operational layer "counters" game a la Hearts of Iron - no 3D rendering in sight.

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Why it has to be 10$ on steam? If Gary Grigsby's War in the East is for 60$ on steam then why Combat Mission can't be even for that 55$ on steam?

 Wait, a minute ago $55 was too expensive, now you say $55 is ok if it's on Steam ?

Well, it's not going to be on Steam in the near future anyway. There are a lot of locked threads on that topic.

But just because it's not on steam is no reason to deny yourself an enjoyable and absorbing game. Is it ?

I really was going to buy one of your new engine CM. But what turned me off the most was when not just one or two but a fairly decent amount of people have said on various websites how bad CM spotting system is and the removal of vital features such as lines of sight and other that I can't remember now.

So can you tell me how have you managed to turn off people that have spent more than 1000 hours in CMx1 and are so discouraged to buy CMx2? Cause trust me it's not me saying these things. I really speak from what I hear on social websites about CMx2 how they say they "refuse" to buy any of the "greedy" packs. So the word "greedy" doesn't even come from me I actually got it from what people say on the internet. And if that's what people so widely express then it's clearly something not right about its game marketing strategy is it?

Hmmm, occasionally spotting "anomalies" are raised here. I've even raised a thread or two on the topic myself. But it's not "bad". The system generates some outliers that sometimes seem strange and once or twice, a bug has been found which the developers squashed. But a lot of the time, it works more or less as you'd expect it to.

No idea what you're talking about with respect to removal of "lines of sight". The game wouldn't work without lines of sight :blink:

Don't know who is saying on social media that they refuse to buy CM products, but it's just possible that they have an axe to grind ? There are a couple of people out there who don't get along with BFC...

Anyway, why let someone else make your mind up ? I suggest you try the demo of one of the titles ( Red Thunder, I think, has the most up to date version of the engine in the demo ).

If you like it, $55 is cheap for the enjoyment you'll get. If you don't, it isn't.

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Why it has to be 10$ on steam? If Gary Grigsby's War in the East is for 60$ on steam then why Combat Mission can't be even for that 55$ on steam? Aren't the promotions on steam all controllable by the developers of the game so it's up to them not the steam whether the game gets a discount? Or am I wrong and the steam gives discounts without developers consent whenever they want?

I really was going to buy one of your new engine CM. But what turned me off the most was when not just one or two but a fairly decent amount of people have said on various websites how bad CM spotting system is and the removal of vital features such as lines of sight and other that I can't remember now.

So can you tell me how have you managed to turn off people that have spent more than 1000 hours in CMx1 and are so discouraged to buy CMx2? Cause trust me it's not me saying these things. I really speak from what I hear on social websites about CMx2 how they say they "refuse" to buy any of the "greedy" packs. So the word "greedy" doesn't even come from me I actually got it from what people say on the internet. And if that's what people so widely express then it's clearly something not right about its game marketing strategy is it?

It's a shame you can't release even an obsolete CMx1 on steam that no one even plays anymore cause you would've had huge profits just from CMx1 alone since I'm sure it would bring a whole lot of people and then maybe perhaps would bring them onto your website to purchase CMx2?

Seriously dude, all of the CMx2 games have demoes available for you to download (and they're quite exstensive too), download and play them and if you find the game(s) really enjoyable you'll end up buying them despite not being on Steam (cuz the games are just that good), if you, however, find the games mediocre or downright bad you obviously wont end up buying them at any point in your life since you wont find a CMx2 game on Steam summersale for 15 dollars. Please just accept these facts and spare the rest of us your pathetic bull****, the issue you're trying start a discoussion about have been debated countless times on these forums before, and the developers have made it absolutly clear that Steam is not the right platform for them, that sucks since the battlefront website and their ways of handeling buying and downloading are ancient and sucks in a lot of ways, BUT the people on the forums (me included) obviously find their games so bloody good that we're willing to look past such, in the end, rather small inconveniences, in order to enjoy their games in which they put in a lot of work and passion. 

So to summarize: the points you are trying to raise are bad and you should feel bad, it's a pointless discussion and therefore no one gives a **** about you in here. Dont let that bring you down though, in the end of the day you're only discussing a video game on a forum consisting of people you will most likely never meet, and who's opinion on you will have no effect whatsoever on your life, so just walk away and focus your mind on something more entertaining/rewarding/important/interesting. 

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You don't seem sure of what it is other people say is wrong with the game; you just seem to recall they didn't like it for some reason. You played the demo: so why base your opinion on that of others, instead of your own?

For all games, there will always be something that people dislike. For most games, there will always be something that people do like. Of course, if the prospect of a single, or potentially more, $10 compatibility patch/update is not acceptable, then all else does not matter.

Edited by Muzzleflash1990
typos

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So honestly without these defects and drawbacks which people have been complaining about I would be happy to pay 55$ and that is if it was only 55$ including future fixes/upgrades (Unless buying a new series which include different nations/new vehicles/weapons etc then I can understand you need to pay more).

Oh common, man, think rationally. For $55 you get a finished product. In the description you can check its features and content, and you can even demo it. Obviously, description does not include line, that product includes additional content which will be released in the future. As for free additional content, just think, why any sane developer would spend his time on additional content, which doesn't generate revenues? Sure, you do patches to the existing product to fix some game breaking bugs to keep your customers happy. Other than that, no developer would spend the most precious resource, time, on something which doesn't generate returns.

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Agreed!  @Kashash don't get sucked into what some disgruntled gamer says. Try it for yourself.  You might find you are disgruntled too and don't like it but you might well find you like it.  I played the old CM before the new stuff to and I have never looked back the new games are way better in my opinion.  But like I said don't trust my opinion either try it for yourself.

The demos ted to lag behind the games a bit in terms of patches and features.  CMRT and CMBS demos are the closest in patch level to the shipping games and by all means report back here with questions. 

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Okay, factual summary of the issues brought up by the OP who desires more for less.

- Has not played the game. (States that the he has tried the demo.)

- All negative views based on others' forum posts.

- Has not balanced that with any positive forum posts which he may, or may not, have read.

- $55 is too much.

- $55 is not too much, but only if that included all upgrades and modules.

- Steam is better distribution model than direct sales.

- Willing to pay more if there are new vehicles or combatants, but discounts the additional combatants and vehicles in the modules?

 

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So honestly without these defects and drawbacks which people have been complaining about I would be happy to pay 55$ and that is if it was only 55$ including future fixes/upgrades (Unless buying a new series which include different nations/new vehicles/weapons etc then I can understand you need to pay more).

Just so I can be clear on this.  You are saying that CMx1 was perfect.  Not a single flaw in it, graphics were as good as they could be, etc?  And that if CMx2 were perfect, without a single flaw in it, you'd think it was worth $55?  And the definition of perfect is everybody on the face of the Earth saying it has no flaws and that you should buy it?  Oh, and that we should keep reinvesting our development time into the game forever without covering our expenses?

I need to be absolutely sure that this is what it will take to get you to buy one of our games.  You know, so that we don't completely change our entire business model and put our company at risk to make you happy for no reason.

Steve

 

Edited by Battlefront.com

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Also keep in mind many of them disgruntled gamers you are referring to on some other sites.

Own the game, play the game and have even posted additional stuff here to use with the game.

Created scenario's  and so on..

 

Now day's people just love to whine and say things thinking it will impact  the outcome of what will happen with the game and its future development. Like saying stuff, hoping to get the price to drop ( Oh sorry, but really that is what I think your motive is) 

Anyway, Battlefront has been pretty good at ignoring most irrelevant comments and developing a game that works and sells to those that have the ability to see it for what it is worth.

 

So, its time for you to make a choice, buy or don't buy.  But continuing to debate your un-logical view as to the game not being worth the money is a good way to continuing to show a lack of intelligence.

 

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Why it has to be 10$ on steam? If Gary Grigsby's War in the East is for 60$ on steam then why Combat Mission can't be even for that 55$ on steam? Aren't the promotions on steam all controllable by the developers of the game so it's up to them not the steam whether the game gets a discount? Or am I wrong and the steam gives discounts without developers consent whenever they want?

That is the way Steam used to operate up until this year, correct.  But in order for us to make more money off of Steam than direct sales we would have to radically increase volume of sales because Steam takes 30% of each sale.  And to get volume sales on Steam you need to go the bargain bin route or nobody will notice you.  Likely nobody will notice you even then and for wargames they won't likely care to buy it even if they do.

I really was going to buy one of your new engine CM. But what turned me off the most was when not just one or two but a fairly decent amount of people have said on various websites how bad CM spotting system is and the removal of vital features such as lines of sight and other that I can't remember now.

Apparently you've not run into the concepts of "outdated information", "uninformed posters", "people love to complain", "everything is hated by someone", and other rather basic Internet concepts.

So can you tell me how have you managed to turn off people that have spent more than 1000 hours in CMx1 and are so discouraged to buy CMx2? Cause trust me it's not me saying these things. I really speak from what I hear on social websites about CMx2 how they say they "refuse" to buy any of the "greedy" packs. So the word "greedy" doesn't even come from me I actually got it from what people say on the internet.

I think everybody here knows not only where you are going for your information but who is giving it to you.  I'll have you know the lead loudmouth hater of CMx2 has bought (I think) every single release we've put out. 

And if that's what people so widely express then it's clearly something not right about its game marketing strategy is it?

Or the people you're relying upon for accurate information are either uninformed or have deep psychological problems. 

 

It's a shame you can't release even an obsolete CMx1 on steam that no one even plays anymore cause you would've had huge profits just from CMx1 alone since I'm sure it would bring a whole lot of people and then maybe perhaps would bring them onto your website to purchase CMx2?

Here's a bit of advice.  Before you offer advice, consider that your premise might be wrong.  Especially if it is based on hearsay from a few cranks.  It reduces the chances of you sounding stupid giving advice to people who know a lot more than you do.

And now for a question to you, Kashash.  You seem to be overly concerned about what other people think of CMx2 to the point that you won't judge the game on its merits (i.e. the Demo).  Have you only taken into consideration the posts form a  dozen or so prolific haters posting on low traffic Forums that most gamers have never heard of?  Or have you spent some time here, on this Forum, where there are thousands of people obviously happy and excited to play CMx2 games?  I think everybody already knows the answer to this, but I figured I'd give you a chance to answer it anyway :D

Steve

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I sometimes get the notion that like those 'Putinbots' roaming the net these days there may also be a few 'Steambots' lurking. Like clockwork, at regular intervals someone will show up and try to push Steam on us using the same arguments as before. If you WANT to buy the game you're ALREADY on the game's website right now! Purchase is just a couple clicks away. No muss, no fuss. 

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Just so I can be clear on this.  You are saying that CMx1 was perfect.  Not a single flaw in it, graphics were as good as they could be, etc?  And that if CMx2 were perfect, without a single flaw in it, you'd think it was worth $55?  And the definition of perfect is everybody on the face of the Earth saying it has no flaws and that you should buy it?  Oh, and that we should keep reinvesting our development time into the game forever without covering our expenses?

I need to be absolutely sure that this is what it will take to get you to buy one of our games.  You know, so that we don't completely change our entire business model and put our company at risk to make you happy for no reason.

Steve

 

LMAO

Unfortunately this is an argument that will inevitably just go round in circles before disappearing for a while.... then someone brings the topic up again and the circular chase starts all over

hqdefault.jpg.

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That is the way Steam used to operate up until this year, correct.  But in order for us to make more money off of Steam than direct sales we would have to radically increase volume of sales because Steam takes 30% of each sale.  And to get volume sales on Steam you need to go the bargain bin route or nobody will notice you.  Likely nobody will notice you even then and for wargames they won't likely care to buy it even if they do.

This doesn't really explain why games like War in the East, Command : Modern Win32 Window Simulator, Flashpoint Campaigns, and Close Combat see success on Steam, unless your argument is that they don't have success on Steam, and their publishers are just gluttons for punishment.

 

Seriously though, a decent webstore for digital goods in a low traffic environment like Battlefront.com would take a competent developer a week in 2015. Get someone on it to make it presentable, with some features that anyone would expect these days (gifts).

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unless your argument is that they don't have success on Steam, and their publishers are just gluttons for punishment.

That's just twisting stuff around to suit your purpose.  Steve's argument is they see no indication that they would see an increase in sales that would off set the additional cost. Mind you it would have to do way more than offset the cost because there would be a fair amount of work involved to get it there.  Yes, what I am saying just because some other game that you think is representative of Combat Mission is being sold on Steam does not mean Combat Mission would see an increase in sales that would offset the cost.  Don't forget that "because I said it would" is not an argument and that is pretty much all you got.  And heck you might even be right that all Steve has is "cause I said it wouldn't" but the thing is a) any of our opinions matter less than Steve's does and b ) Steve's opinion has been formed actually selling war games.

 

Seriously though, a decent webstore for digital goods in a low traffic environment like Battlefront.com would take a competent developer a week in 2015.

That is just wrong or at least a massive exaggeration. You cannot even test a new store front properly in a week.

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That's just twisting stuff around to suit your purpose.  Steve's argument is they see no indication that they would see an increase in sales that would off set the additional cost. Mind you it would have to do way more than offset the cost because there would be a fair amount of work involved to get it there.  Yes, what I am saying just because some other game that you think is representative of Combat Mission is being sold on Steam does not mean Combat Mission would see an increase in sales that would offset the cost.  Don't forget that "because I said it would" is not an argument and that is pretty much all you got.  And heck you might even be right that all Steve has is "cause I said it wouldn't" but the thing is a) any of our opinions matter less than Steve's does and b ) Steve's opinion has been formed actually selling war games.

 

That is just wrong or at least a massive exaggeration. You cannot even test a new store front properly in a week.

How does that change anything? Are you saying that those other publishers of niche titles don't have the same issues Battlefront would? The whole point of my argument is that Battlefront's issues are hardly unique, and yet others with similar niche titles find success, otherwise they would stop. Do you think that those hex games and spreadsheet simulators have more widespread appeal than Combat Mission? I absolutely disagree with the assertion that a game like CMANO can overcome the 30% revenue cut through volume, but Combat Mission can't.

 

I always forget how terrible web developers are at pretty much everything, so you are right about the store. Of course, a small business shouldn't be rolling their own storefront in 2015 anyway, you can buy them for a flat monthly fee.

Edited by SgtHatred

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