kohlenklau Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 Matt has just canceled the kickstarter.... Maybe we suffered our Kasserine Pass? Can we learn from our mistakes and return better than ever and achieve victory? Or do we crumble to the naysayers and hindsighters? Please join us at the game development forum if you are interested. http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/board,36.0.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtHatred Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) you have a better option on the table or just willing to accept having none? Funding this to 100% and having nothing will result in the same thing, except in the first case the community would be out $32k and there would be bad blood between some members. ... Look I'll admit I think the "marketing" aspect of this has lacked direction and a real plan, but then we aren't talking about the actual sale of the game yet. What Matt and company have come up with is the basic design. ... So far all I hear from the doubting Thomas crowd is conjecture on how they think the announcement and KS campaign was not done well. Okay yeah, so if that little issue is enough for you to not commit, fine. If I were Matt's team though that would tell me all I need to know. Have they come up with a basic design? They didn't show it to anyone publicly. They had a big list of features they wanted, and a couple of map images. I didn't see even a mockup of what the game would look like though. No UI design, just a mention of PC/Mac/Mobile. No indication that they have any idea how difficult it would be to reconcile PC/mobile conceptually, let alone technically. Multiplayer mentions 16 players. How do they propose to do that? Are they going to have a central server for people to connect to? Will it be the largest PBEM hot potato in history? No, this needs more time to develop, an actual design plan, a prototype, and probably a more realistic look at a beginning feature set. You can't be the Star Citizen of Operational Wargames on a $32k budget. Edited September 8, 2015 by SgtHatred 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Well there's a big warning sign in itself - you have a team that's been 'meeting for months' and there's no code to show for it. That's not an onerous request - a barebones prototype for a game is something you'd expect someone to be able to knock up over a weekend. If after months and months of work you have nothing to show for it but a design document that could have been knocked up in an hour then the reasonably impartial observer has every right to question the competence of the team behind the project. I don't think this is something that could ever be suited to kickstarter or similar early-access programmes, but if it were then the point to ask people for money would be after showing Steve a prototype and getting the go ahead to try and get the thing to work with CM. I think this reflects a lack of understanding of the development process. The first thing you t Need to do is to know what to code. That takes far more than a weekend. I have no idea how you assessed being able to develop the basic design in a weekend. Limiting the KS campaign till after discussions with BF also ignores the targeted community is larger than the CM community. There is a very particular piece we want to see, but that can't be the total focus. Again I think you need to delve a little more into this before commenting as your understanding of what they are doing and the different phases is incorrect. That honestly is I think part of what they have done wrong in the marketing of this. The information is there, but the announcement could have been a lot clearer. As it is it seems to be a moot discussion. The KS campaign has been cancelled for now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Funding this to 100% and having nothing will result in the same thing, except in the first case the community would be out $32k and there would be bad blood between some members. You assume failure Eeyore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Have they come up with a basic design? They didn't show it to anyone publicly. They had a big list of features they wanted, and a couple of map images. I didn't see even a mockup of what the game would look like though. No UI design, just a mention of PC/Mac/Mobile. No indication that they have any idea how difficult it would be to reconcile PC/mobile conceptually, let alone technically. Multiplayer mentions 16 players. How do they propose to do that? Are they going to have a central server for people to connect to? Will it be the largest PBEM hot potato in history? Yeah, my impression is that they *do* have an answer for all those questions. But you are right about things not being articulated well. I hope they regroup. If they do I'll be there. No, this needs more time to develop, an actual design plan, a prototype, and probably a more realistic look at a beginning feature set. You can't be the Star Citizen of Operational Wargames on a $32k budget. I'm not sure about that. I was kinda thinking they would have been going for a lot more money (like 100K) so they could actually have some full time staff working on things. I hope the volunteer workers can continue and get it to a place where they can show some things off. Mind you by then they will not need $ any more perhaps. Chicken and egg. This concept of show us what you have built before we fund you on KS is not what KS is about. If they could show us what the built then they could sell it. The point of KS is to get some funding to finish creating something that can then be sold. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootie Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) This has been a very interesting process to watch. My original post on the subject has been vindicated. Damn who proof read that... should be taken out the back and flogged. Im gonna hold of until I get a bigger bit of bone to chew on. Call me a perennial pessimist since CMC collapsed but I need more than a lot of hot air bravado and a rather tame looking screenshot to stoke the fires of interest. Whilst what you are doing is very commendable and I do hope it works out at present I will watch from the sidelines and make a call on whether to back or not in a week or two. Now that it has been cancelled some folk are coming out and saying what I said right at the start. I have no experience in programming, marketing or kick-starter campaigns but this one just seemed doomed from an outsiders viewpoint. The major points I think I learnt from this are... Build up interest across as wide a spectrum as possible. It would be interesting to see how many of the 42 are CM based players? Have professional looking advertising content - the images released looked like something done on MS Word/Paint in half an hour and had typos/grammatical mistakes in the text. Have a definitive identity... or different marketing groups targeting different war games. Vagueness was a killer. This vagueness was also the death of it. We seen a list of what YOU wanted... but no idea on how you were going to do it. We were being sold an idea. (I guess that's what kick-starter is) The process seemed rushed. Which is strange considering it was started being discussed 26 months ago. Surely a bad omen. Despite all this I wanted it to work and although I didnt feel confident enough to put my cash in I was, like I said, watching from the sidelines. Hopefully Matt and co can learn from this and take it forward but I have doubts that a kick starter will ever earn enough capital to make this a go. As someone else said it is a niche market within a niche market... extensive customer research would need to have been carried out and surely this would have highlighted this before you guys travelled 2+ years down the road. To be controversial this sort of thing would be best designed in a way where it is a free download... with a rule set and lots of manual entry into databases. Folk interested in this niche of a niche product wouldn't mind throwing numbers into a database. Shane Edited September 8, 2015 by ShaneGreer 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I won't kick in yet because I think I will wait to see if anyone else kicks in. It doesn't reach it's goal Vindication may be the wrong word so much as creating a self fulfilling prophecy. You can argue that what you foresaw was how things turned out, or you could say your decision forced the result. Well maybe not just "yours" but a shared attitude. I am not trying to make this into a negative rant or critique. Look I get that folks are picky about where they put their money. It is your right and it is the smart thing to do. However the terms and expectations being bandied around are mostly based on being mis informed with where the game is at, what the process is and what this particular KS campaign is/was. That failure to prep the community is certainly the primary responsibility of those who kicked off the campaign and they have rightly taken ownership and are regrouping. Still the lack of effort within the community to even discuss what it is and instead simply decided ahh I'll sit back and wait...instead of actively looking for answers, posting questions to Matt, pushing that team to provide the answers that may or may not have gotten folks to get off the fence. Well we own that. My point if I can ever make it clear is yes there is a certain risk involved- it is an investment. At some point each of us individually has to decide for ourselves what kind of risk we are willing to assume and there are questions that need to be answered before we can decide. What is the product, is it something I am even remotely interested in. Who is doing it, do I trust them to make it happen How is the project going, does it seem to me that they are organized enough to deliver. How much do I feel I can comfortably risk right now. For me watching their progress and knowing what it is they are trying to do, i felt yes I am willing to commit X dollars that I can comfortably afford to lose and not sweat it. The goal was 32k. Let's just assume we are talking the same as a CM upgrade- $10. That is only 3200 of us. Are there not 3200 of us that would be willing to toss $10 to get this off the ground? I guess that is what unnerves me. There doesn't seem to be. It really makes me appreciate the tight rope BF walks in the effort they put into their games and keeping their goals clear and profitable. We really are a very fickle community. Perhaps the campaign aspect really does have a very limited base, a small subset of a small niche community. It makes me more skeptical, but I'll still take the risk as the end goal is something I very much want to see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchenar Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 (edited) I think this reflects a lack of understanding of the development process. The first thing you t Need to do is to know what to code. That takes far more than a weekend. I have no idea how you assessed being able to develop the basic design in a weekend. It's absolutely a common thing in the video game industry when at the concept stage for people to throw together prototypes in a day or two in order to get a feel for how a developed product might end up playing and what the potential difficulties are. You don't need anything close to a complete design, you just need a sketch to see if what you are thinking about has merit. e: also you really need a grasp on numbers. The wargame genre is small, the proportion of wargame customers who sit on game forums is absolutely tiny (it's about one in ten customers ever register on a forum, far fewer make more than one post). A project wholly advertised on a few forum threads could only ever get a few dozen donations at most. The numbers thing also goes right to the core of what's dodgy about the kickstarter: it's not enough money to pay for one programmer. But there's a team of 10? Given that this is a project that's obviously going to rely on large donations of programmer time in order to get off the ground it seems fair to question why none of that has happened already. Edited September 8, 2015 by Alchenar 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobo Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Sad to see this happen but like many expected it . This project really needs a strong Angel with both deep pockets (Curt Schilling, are you out there..) and deeper experience (BF, this is how you build your legacy...) . I was prepared to invest $500 but got turned off with an exchange not on this board. I really hope the right person finds this project to be a worthy investment of their time and helps CO get to the finish time as their basic thesis is correct. Edited September 9, 2015 by hobo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choppinlt Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Hey guys, anyone got $32 grand laying around? Anybody ever tried to do a large technical project on a pure volunteer basis where you had to find and recruit those volunteers? Besides constant turnover, the lack of leverage (i.e. you're not paying them), widely varying levels of interest and motivation, and exceedingly slow production it is an extremely simple thing to execute...NOT!!! Without boring you with a ton of backstory, it was quickly realized that we needed full time dedicated programming if this game was ever going to get produced, which is why we went the KS route. 2 of the programmers said they would do this project as long as they made enough money to "keep the lights on" as they put it. We met 2 times face to face to go over the project, its goals, etc. and they told me both times they had the capability to make it happen. I quickly saw after the campaign started that I had failed to convince the general public of this (among plenty of other takeaways), and we were not going to be agile enough to mitigate the concerns. Now moving forward, I came away with a ton of lessons learned, and you can make damn sure will be addressed the next time. The programmers had their own takeaways, and they came away more motivated too. Yes this campaign was well on its way in falling short of the funding goals, yet there were several positives to be found for those looking for them. That is what we are taking forward as we prepare to mitigate the shortcomings of this campaign. For those wanting to continue the conversation, feel free to go to our new forum at http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php and sign up! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 thanks Matt. I am working on that lottery ticket 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootie Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Good to hear Matt... good luck for the future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Keep at it. Using an existing game engine like Unity allows for relatively easy cross-platform transfer of existing code (PC/Mac/iOS). I'd look at that as a base to start from. You will still need the smae set of skills- coding, graphics, etc.- but the architecture would be provided for easier integration and management of each part. There's also a good deal of tutorial info on developing using Unity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 First: I have supported this campaign and I very much want it to happen. But: if I hadn't been involved/known about this beforehand I doubt I would have. A picture of a map and two lines of text - if that would be a sign of the effort that has been gone into that project... Take a look at other projects: a video from the devoloper explaining the why and what, preliminary set of rules to read, some pieces of artwork - something that makes you understand what this is and want it, too. Marketing wise a total failure, sorry. My bold. FWIW, I'm interested... How much so? Well, I've got an operational board game showing up in a bit which cost $200 (pre-order price, The Greatest Day, a GTS series game.) I figured I'd kick in $200 if I could find out more about this op layer. I could not. I went to the linked site and did not see anything which made me think there'd been real work done. Sure, some hex maps, a 3 box spaghetti diagram, and the same map image (BTW, that map image shows grey units IN Carentan, and one of the blurbs on the linked forum starts with "You've got to move 502 regiment to keep the Germans from getting into Carentan" http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,978.0.html Umm, they're already there.) It showed that the image was not a screenie of an alpha build, but just an artistic impression. For this to take off, it needs a bit more polish. The design doc, the goals, the timeline, the means to get to that goal, how it will be assessed and corrected when it deviates, who and how many are on the team, the budget and how it'll be allocated, the forecast sales and revenue goals, etc. Not that all that needs to be put in the public eye, but if SOME of that were done, this may have better chance. I'm interested, but I need to see some meat. Take the criticism as it's meant: as a way to improve the chance of success. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniced73 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Curious as to what happens to all the funds that some people have sent on over to this KS? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The way Kick Starter works is it does not actually transfer money unless the goal is reached. So nothing happened. It is designed to help the seeker of funds to be able to get what they need without having to manage or deal with refunding things if they fall short while at the same time allow the contributor some level of confidence that they are only facing the risk that the project will fail not the risk that too few people will contribute. That added worry about "will the project get enough backers to have a chance of success" would keep some people form becoming backers. There are a lot of Eeyore types out there and to get them to contribute means removing sources of worry. Kicks Starter provides an escrow like service that allows the communication and merits of the project be the deciding factor - not concerns about what happens to funds if the goal is not reached. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabishdFGM Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 The way Kick Starter works is it does not actually transfer money unless the goal is reached. So nothing happened. It is designed to help the seeker of funds to be able to get what they need without having to manage or deal with refunding things if they fall short while at the same time allow the contributor some level of confidence that they are only facing the risk that the project will fail not the risk that too few people will contribute. That added worry about "will the project get enough backers to have a chance of success" would keep some people form becoming backers. There are a lot of Eeyore types out there and to get them to contribute means removing sources of worry. Kicks Starter provides an escrow like service that allows the communication and merits of the project be the deciding factor - not concerns about what happens to funds if the goal is not reached. Thank you for this explanation. This information might help everyone the next time something like this comes up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 It goes to show you that assumptions are bad. The tricky bit is recognizing when you have made one (or two). I did not realize that people might not know how Kick Starter worked. But obviously why would they. I'll have to remember for next time to point this out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniced73 Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 I did not assume, others may have though. I also did not contribute to it. Sorry, but I needed a tad bit more to digest. What they put out there was pretty plain and simple. If any one here works in the advertisement industry, I am sure looking at that attempt made them cringe. But hey, live and learn, right? Hopefully they do step back digest what just did not happen and then reapply to a new attempt. Definitely will still morally support this, financially when I see the new and improved. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Why did you guys only run the Kickstarter for a week? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Why did you guys only run the Kickstarter for a week? It was evident that it wasn't going to meet it's goal so they cancelled it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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