Because Bradley

[Jammersix]

welcome to my wonderful world of pbem. told ya bradley was a meh general and against humans a mwh vehicle.. beats the hell outta bmps but i wasnt arguing that. the original assertion was all u needed was brads u brought along abrams too but thats fine. btw did u just lose a bradley? my t90 shot at it and i saq an explosion on it just as it popped smoke and reversed. was that an iron tree or dead bradley?

 

Actually, the assertion was that the winner will have Bradleys. If what you heard is not what I said, then I have no responsibility for the angst that what you heard causes you.

[Vanir Ausf B]

LOL, this is one of the more unusual AARs I've seen. I like it.

[Sublime]

whatever the I still think the winner will not have bradleys, at least this time.

[A Canadian Cat]

I'm probing Voloske at dawn, with a strict rarity factor.

 

A probe because Sublime has more respect for (and fear of) Bradleys than he's admitted, and doesn't want me to have anything like the force I need to attack or, god forbid, assault Voloske. He wants "parity". In battle.

 

LOL, I have played quite a few quick battles.  What I have learned is that attacks and Assaults nearly always to go to the Attacker - unless the totally screw up.  Probes can go either way.  Sublime and I agree - not sure if I passed him that bit of wisdom or he learned it himself the hard way.  It is not hard to figure out and why would he just believe me so I suspect he has figured it out himself.

 

I would but I can't stop laughing.

 

Screen shot please, video preferred but we'll take what we can get.

 

Same, as much as the OP's assertion is annoying this AAR is actually pretty entertaining.  It just needs some pictures...

 

Ok and the kill count is 1 T90 killed for 2 Abrams,  1 US aircraft (un ID'd) and roughly 20-30 dead GIs. for a T90 and about a platoon and half of Russian troops and some grenade launchers. and he has NOT hit my main defensive line, just screening forces =D

 

Wait, did your T90 score both M1 kills?  That would be a pretty good record, reminds me of "seven in one blow".

 

What do you mean they're not our aircraft? And why isn't this Raven working? I lost another Abrams?

 

Oh, man brilliant writing.

 

I think that by design, the Bradley is supposed to be able to take out enemy MBTs. The fact that the BMP family have a hard time doing so is their fault. It's not Omar's fault, you know.

 

Spot on. I think someone misunderstood what some people were saying earlier: no one said Bradley aren't good fighting vehicles.

 

whatever the I still think the winner will not have bradleys, at least this time.

 

LOL and the trash talk continues.  You realize that if you loose but KO all his Bradley's first the assertion "the winner will have Bradley's" will still be false

[sburke]

Can the assertion include the winner will have had Bradley's at some point, but not necessarily now?

[A Canadian Cat]

The original assertion was "whoever has the Bradleys wins".  I suppose it could be interpreted as "whomever started with the Bradleys will win".  But given the less than serious nature of this entire thread I prefer my interpretation.

[Battlefront.com]

Because I have never been able to get a PBEM game to work with Black Sea.

 

I've put in three tickets on it, and it has been "referred to the Mac programmer" for suggestion.

 

That luminary has yet to contact me or respond.

 

Battlefront is not interested in fixing the problem.

Consider this a response... we looked into it, couldn't reproduce it, nobody else is experiencing the problem. It seems that the issue is limited to you specifically. And not even all the time, as your current game proves. I don't think people would be too happy if we dropped everything else and tried (most likely without success) to fix a sometimes problem for one person.

They have a long history of this behavior, going back to Combat Mission 1.0. (Now everyone currently involved will point out that they weren't born when Combat Mission 1.0 was released. While that may be true, the lack of support has been present in every single release since then.)

You certainly have an odd sense of humor, but I did get a laugh out of this anyway. "Lack of support"... hilarious

 

One has merely to recall the 81% bug in Shock Force, the furor it caused, to recognize the pattern.

Hmm. And I think I'm starting to recognize a pattern that is more present and more relevant than something from 7 years ago.

Steve

[sburke]

Well techically he would stil have Bradleys. They might be burning twisted wrecks, but they'd still be burning twisted wrecks of Bradleys

[antaress73]

Arena would have stopped that TOW-2B, but since you like things to be expensive, seems like your wish was granted. Oh and btw, Relikt on top of the T-90AM and in a lesser measure Kontakt-5 can and will stop TOW-2Bs at the right spot and even the occasionnal Javelin.

I do not agree that ARENA is useless against the US. It makes the TOW-2B only marginally effective leaving only the javelin and the Abrams as reliable ground tools against russian MBTs for the US player. In my opinion, this is not something to neglect as a Russian player. Not to mention the odd AT-4 to the side it protects against .On BMPs, they are even more useful since they could get closer to US infantry.

Is it worth it point wise in the context of a PBEM quick battle? I dunno.

Edited September 9, 2015 by antaress73

[antaress73]

I think that by design, the Bradley is supposed to be able to take out enemy MBTs. The fact that the BMP family have a hard time doing so is their fault. It's not Omar's fault, you know.

Well the BMPs do fine against Ukranian MBTs. And the side turret armor of the Abrams is rated way too high (bug and reported, might be fixed in a future patch ) and would protect much less than modeled in the game against a tandem warhead AT-10 stabber that the BMP uses (and against RPGs and AT-13s) so it doesnt play in favor of the BMP against the US.

Edited September 9, 2015 by antaress73

[Battlefront.com]

I'll never forget the first time I used Stryker ATGMs back in the Beta days of CMSF. One of George's masterpiece scenarios. I had a reinforced platoon and I spotted a massive armored force a couple of kilometers away. I parked them on a hill and let fly. I was pleased with the number of booms I saw that were AFV detonation related. Very pleased. Then they spotted me and I was less pleased. There is something to be said for traveling around in packs. I simply didn't have the RoF to stick it out.

Steve

[Sublime]

Antaress - How do I like things expensive? I didnt get APS and I got T90As with a BTR tac group. thats a pretty budget choice if you ask me.

Also yeah arenas great against Ukr bur thats irrelevant to this convo. I encounter javelins ans abrams at least 10x more than any Tow2B launches so arena to me especially against US is useless. Especially since the Bradleys autocannon will penetrate any Russ armor side. And i think many Russian players are exagerrating how tough abrams sides are. for example both abrams kills in this qb were flank shots. hull to be sure but still.

[antaress73]

Antaress - How do I like things expensive? I didnt get APS and I got T90As with a BTR tac group. thats a pretty budget choice if you ask me.

Also yeah arenas great against Ukr bur thats irrelevant to this convo. I encounter javelins ans abrams at least 10x more than any Tow2B launches so arena to me especially against US is useless. Especially since the Bradleys autocannon will penetrate any Russ armor side. And i think many Russian players are exagerrating how tough abrams sides are. for example both abrams kills in this qb were flank shots. hull to be sure but still.

 

you said using APS cheapens things earlier, should have used a quote. That was a joke;) As for side turret "bug". See that screenshot with three hits from AT-13s on the turret side that didnt penetrate despite having 900mm+ penetration and a tandem warhead. I never saw an Abrams turret side penetration from anything less than a Kryz or Kornet in game. Hull sides ? Yes, plenty, even from RPGs where there's no ERA coverage.  You could kill an M1A2 SEP in shock force with an RPG-29 penetration on the turret side on a regular basis. Agreed, on SEP v.2 the side armor was improved and there's ERA but the single layer ERA shouldnt  be a big factor against a tandem AT-13 or RPG and its very doubtful the turret side armor has gone from less than 650mm on the M1A2 Sep v.1  against CE to 900mm + on the SEP. V2 which is a level of protection that would make it impervious to the AT-13.

Edited September 9, 2015 by antaress73

[Sublime]

LOL, I have played quite a few quick battles. What I have learned is that attacks and Assaults nearly always to go to the Attacker - unless the totally screw up. Probes can go either way. Sublime and I agree - not sure if I passed him that bit of wisdom or he learned it himself the hard way. It is not hard to figure out and why would he just believe me so I suspect he has figured it out himself.

Same, as much as the OP's assertion is annoying this AAR is actually pretty entertaining. It just needs some pictures...

Wait, did your T90 score both M1 kills? That would be a pretty good record, reminds me of "seven in one blow".

Oh, man brilliant writing.

Spot on. I think someone misunderstood what some people were saying earlier: no one said Bradley aren't good fighting vehicles.

LOL and the trash talk continues. You realize that if you loose but KO all his Bradley's first the assertion "the winner will have Bradley's" will still be false

no we both came to same conclusion seperately about probes. its much more noticeable in bs. at this rate he.ll have bradleys left before abrams. yeah ive shot down a couple of aircraft. i guess ravens accdg to him. Also yes one T90A got both Abrams and its not the one who died. he got a shot off at a brad then popped smoke and reversed i saw an explosion of round detonating but i thibk the iron tree caught it and saved the brad

[A Canadian Cat]

Who ever has the iron trees wins. 

[Rinaldi]

Off topic, Ian, but is it that egregious to do an assault? I've defended in PBEMs a few times w/ success, but now I feel a tad guilty subjecting my current opponent to one in my AAR. We always just liked the larger scale of it...

[A Canadian Cat]

Hey, I'm not judging anyone if you are having fun attack, assault, probe or meeting engagement then that is great.  I just have not had many enjoyable attack games - even as the attacker.

[Sublime]

well its not as bad in the WW2 titles but its still REALLY heavily stacked point wise for attacker. like close to 3:1 in my approximation. i find no matter what i do i lose a lot of attacks i defend against, more noticeable in BS again but every assault i defend against a human i lose. I mean military tactics 101 basically says to ensure an attacks success get 3:1 odds ans thats what the defender faces in assaults and its heavily localized as well.

edit: ninjaed by Ian. now take what he said about ATTACK games and figure assaults stack the points further towards the attacker

Edited September 9, 2015 by Sublime

[Baneman]

Off topic, Ian, but is it that egregious to do an assault? I've defended in PBEMs a few times w/ success, but now I feel a tad guilty subjecting my current opponent to one in my AAR. We always just liked the larger scale of it...

 

Well, I've done a few test games with friends and the conclusion was really that in a QB, with the points differential between Attacker and Defender in Attack or Assault battles, the Defender will almost always be overwhelmed.

Regarding a Probe battle as an "attack" gives some chance to the Defender to pull off a heroic defence.

 

The exception may be if you give the Attacker serious time pressure.

 

That's opinion of course, but I and many of the people I game against have sort of adopted Probes as Attacks.

[Rinaldi]

Hm, fair enough you three. I'll fall back on the water obstacle excuse for my WW2 battle. I agree that the points in CMBS are a bit more intimidating, and I'm of the opinion that the forces are a lot more asymmetric than in BN and RT.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Rinaldi

[Sublime]

you said using APS cheapens things earlier, should have used a quote. That was a joke;) As for side turret "bug". See that screenshot with three hits from AT-13s on the turret side that didnt penetrate despite having 900mm+ penetration and a tandem warhead. I never saw an Abrams turret side penetration from anything less than a Kryz or Kornet in game. Hull sides ? Yes, plenty, even from RPGs where there's no ERA coverage. You could kill an M1A2 SEP in shock force with an RPG-29 penetration on the turret side on a regular basis. Agreed, on SEP v.2 the side armor was improved and there's ERA but the single layer ERA shouldnt be a big factor against a tandem AT-13 or RPG and its very doubtful the turret side armor has gone from less than 650mm on the M1A2 Sep v.1 against CE to 900mm + on the SEP. V2 which is a level of protection that would make it impervious to the AT-13.

ah apologies. Did you look at my saves i sent you antaress with my at13 abrans kills? yes i dont like APS and feel though its fielded by Russians that if i tell my opponent not to i wont either. and i feel since its already late 2015 APS for US forxes is unlikely. Yes Ive heard the arguments about procuring APS in an emergency and am not debating them. but cm is a game and has limitations that all games simulating real life will always have. some of these limitations may be fixed others never will for games. its unfortunate for the redfor side in BS that the limitations affect them more than the US and therefore I feel with such limitations and the current in game Russian heavy reliance on lasers and ATGMs and the godlike capabilities of Abrams in capable hands that APS is just a bit much. Even still i told my current opponent in this thrwad to feel free to buy it. I passed and as Vanir said house rules are there for a reason, ironically i said almost exactly what vanir said privately to him e.g. about un shootdownable zalas or perhaps juat buying TRPs 3 arty spotting vehicles and loads of 203mm and plastering his setup zone. Obviously i wouldnt but house rules arent there to cheat or bexause someone wants a handicap its to make the game a fair fight. I dont blame jammer though as I think hes very new to playing PBEMs as he hasnt been able to now. if you guys want screenies bug him or wait till the battles over and i have free time and ill get some.

I wouldnt be so utterly set on winning but such bold statements about bradleys on a forum full of pbem vets when you.ve only played the AI must be punished. Severely as I am. more updates after my shift at job 2,is over and i get home around 11pm EST

Edited September 9, 2015 by Sublime

[hattori]

Rinaldi -- don't be intimidated by the points in BS.  You'll actually have less forces to work with than a similar sized battle (medium, large, etc) compared to RT (and especially if you are the Americans) because the cost of each individual vehicle is higher, and you will likely want to toss every squad in a vehicle of some sort.  I personally find a large battle in RT much more time consuming to manage.

[Sublime]

yeah theres a huge difference in a huge battle for BS vs WW2

BTW split my head open at work and am gttn stitches at the hospital. expect aars from turns early tonite woot! i got a screenie of said head injury if anyone wants to see what slippin head first into a metal door frame looks like

[Battlefront.com]

Sorry to hear about your head vs. doorframe not going as well as you might have liked!

Yup, there's an enormous difference between the two timeframes in terms of points and what to do with them. The lethality factor is major part of that difference. A modern day mech infantry platoon could probably decimate a WW2 battalion if they went head to head.

Steve

[Vanir Ausf B]

Arena would have stopped that TOW-2B, but since you like things to be expensive, seems like your wish was granted. Oh and btw, Relikt on top of the T-90AM and in a lesser measure Kontakt-5 can and will stop TOW-2Bs at the right spot and even the occasionnal Javelin.

I do not agree that ARENA is useless against the US. It makes the TOW-2B only marginally effective leaving only the javelin and the Abrams as reliable ground tools against russian MBTs for the US player. In my opinion, this is not something to neglect as a Russian player. Not to mention the odd AT-4 to the side it protects against .On BMPs, they are even more useful since they could get closer to US infantry.

Is it worth it point wise in the context of a PBEM quick battle? I dunno.

 

I was thinking mostly of tanks when I made my comments regarding Arena. It does make more sense on BMP-3s since they are more likely to get in close with US infantry where AT4s and 40mm HEDP becomes a concern. Having said that, I would estimate 90% of my vehicles loses are to Abrams or Javelin.