Bud's Russian Attack AAR: Красная молния

[c3k]

Of course, I do applaud your use of the tank riders as mobile mini-dumps. Follow up forces can get ammo from the trail of casualties.

[herr_oberst]

Yeah, those tank riders lend a new definition to the term "meat shield".  At least they kept the paint from getting scuffed off.  

 

(I find it mildly reassuring seeing other folks who make the same tactical, er, mis-decisions as I seem wont to do.)

[c3k]

Bil is a strong adherent of the "recon pull" school of thought. Meaning, don't have a plan. Scope out the enemy, THEN figure out what to do. (C'mon, it's close enough: go with it.)

 

Others believe in "command push". This means the commander's intent is signaled, and then all ops are meant to conform to it.

 

There are pros and cons to each and neither is exclusive to the other.

 

Obviously, there is a third school of thought. It involves the commissar, a nagant, and the need to prove one's loyalty to the cause. 

 

 

I know which school of thought applies to this battle.

 

 

Bud, we've all been there. Kudos for doing this in public. Your losses, thus far, could have been avoided, but are certainly not outrageous nor unheard of. All of the comments are for instructional purposes for others following this AAR. Seriously, you're doing a great job explaining what you're doing and showing it to us. For grins and giggles, I've got a pbem going where my oppo put his infantry into a chokepoint...which I'd placed a TRP on. Your losses are NOTHING compared to his. We all learn from our mistakes. Some of us are learning from yours. :)

[Rinaldi]

Bud if its any consolation I've had as many brain farts as you've had so far in my parallel AAR; I'm officially down more officers than you are.

 

c3k is on the money, your losses are frustrating but not back-breaking, they're what I call 'teeth-grinders.' In my experience as an attacker, you always get the worst deal in the first half of the battle, and you don't get to make up for losses until you've disrupted the enemy's cohesion. Keep at it.

[A Canadian Cat]

Honestly, my post was a bit tongue in cheek. I tried to describe the doctrine as I understand it but honestly I have never done any better. My tank riders are constantly getting scrapped off. Or i just dismount then early. I have a game going now where I have a mind to try it. If I do I'll write it up.
 

2. Plot MOVE movement waypoints for the tank. (You cannot use Quick or Fast when riders are on the tank.)

?!?! You can give tanks fast orders when they have riders. I do it all the time. The drivers automatically slow down a bit for you .

Edited September 15, 2015 by IanL

[MOS:96B2P]

<Snip> I have a game going now where I have a mind to try it. If I do I'll write it up. <Snip>

 

This would be interesting!  Especially with cool screenshots!  

 

<Snip> You can give tanks fast orders when they have rife. I do it all the time. The drivers automatically slow down a bit for you .

 

I didn't want to go to far off on a tangent from Bud B's AAR so I put my reply in a new topic thread. 

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/120685-tank-speed-when-transporting-infantry-riders/

[Bud Backer]

Minutes 37-33 Part One:

As my armour, with tank riders, reaches the farmhouses and begins rooting out the Germans, 2/1 squad in two sections makes a break for the woods behind the farmhouses. I want to clear those woods of any AT weapons. The bonus to this is that they will have better eyes on my mystery contact in the gully near the next row of trees.

3rd Squad covers while both sections of 1/1 squad also move in the woods, setting up for a flanking maneuver on the scattered German units behind the farmhouses.

2/2 tank, with riders aboard, charges for the middle of the farmhouses. Except for 2nd Tnk Plt HQ, all my tanks are being maneuvered to stop behind the farmhouses so that if the Germans have ATGs or tanks in the town itself, they will not be able to fire on my tanks. I want to compartmentalize this fight and finish off the farmhouses before exposing to more distant enemy forces.

2/1 tank is bogged in the woods and of no use at the moment. The ground was soft there and surprisingly difficult to move vehicles in.

RU087

As 1A/1 and 1B/1 sections begin their moves, they come under fire from a pair of HMG42s. You can see bullets hitting tree trunks by the men as they seek cover. One HMG is newly spotted, but the other is one originally spotted by the armoured car on AOA 1.

RU088

Finally!!!

Earlier on I said I wanted an IS-2 on AOA 1 to the west, where it was sheltered from AT fire but could put it’s large calibre gun to good use on the farmhouses. And now it comes to good use. If I had clear targets for its limited ammo I would carry out a proper bombardment, but at the moment taking out the HMG 42 is sufficiently rewarding.

The 122mm shell sails across most of the map to hit the HMG and take out the whole crew and gun on the first shot.

RU089

As what’s left of my tank riders from the first tank head for the two closest farmhouses, an undetected Panzerschreck or Panzerfaust arcs out of the treeline at my rear-most tank.

RU090

Luckily, the warhead hits the dirt right at the T34’s right track and causes no damage, despite appearing to be very very close indeed.

RU091

The Panzerschreck team is not spotted, but the second HMG that fired earlier on 1/1 squad tries to pull back.

RU092

The 2nd Tnk Pl HQ T34 fires…

RU093

Stationary tanks really have much better aim in WW2…

RU094

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bud Backer

[Bud Backer]

Bud_B, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself - I have plenty of moments when I think to myself ... now why did I do that again? or how come I made that mistake AGAIN?

This thread is great entertainment, well put together and easy to follow - you are a good story teller and despite the setbacks you think you're having, you won't know what's on the other side of the hill until the game is over - some of those rounds you're putting downrange may be causing your opponent plenty of hurt.

After watching the planning you are doing for your battle in your thread (excellent presentation, by the way!) I'm feeling a bit sheepish talking about planning at the beginning of mine. However, I can't see myself ever devoting that much time to a game so I have to live with what I get

One thing you are right about is not having a clue what I've done to my enemy. The game models this well that there are no dead men suddenly on display, not unless I can spot the bodies. I know past battles where both I and my opponent were convinced each of us was doing worse than the other and causing no enemy casualties, because we cannot see what is going on on the other side of the hill!

Edited September 15, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

The answer is yes.  Yeah really helpful right?  It could be a location your guys glimpsed or heard the HMG crew earlier.  It could be a contact from another unit all together.  It could be a left over contact from another unit.  The one thing I can say is it appears that when you wipe out a unit all their lingering contact markers go.  So, if you nail that guy carrying the rabbits foot (he is the last guy right) and that contact goes away then it was just a lingering HMG contact but if it sticks around then it was something else.  That's my gamey advice on contacts for today

 

Ok, so I really can't glean any specific conclusions as to what the icon is representing; it really could be anything. Thanks! 

[Bud Backer]

Bud, you seem to be losing a lot of SMGers on the way up, do be careful, I have a feeling you will need every SMG when you meet his main line of resistance... this is just the outskirts, and should be tackled with minimum combat power, or alternately overwhelm it quickly, but if you are doing that, use everything you can spare from more than one direction and make it quick and violent... will be much easier on your infantry in the end.

 

I seem to have gone with neither approach. I can see the overwhelm quickly idea as I watch my mistakes here, but doing this with minimum combat power is something I'm less sure about how to orchestrate. 

 

My assumptions would be -

 

-use tanks to fire HE at a distance

-use only a couple of squads - one covering while the other approaches

-take a lot more time rather than rushing in

 

is that what you mean?

[Bud Backer]

Yeah, those tank riders lend a new definition to the term "meat shield".  At least they kept the paint from getting scuffed off.  

 

(I find it mildly reassuring seeing other folks who make the same tactical, er, mis-decisions as I seem wont to do.)

 

And I find it mildly reassuring that others admit they make the same mistakes I do!

[Rinaldi]

Welcome back. Good update, hopefully with the IS in a good position you can pay some enemy losses back with interest.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Rinaldi

[Bud Backer]

Welcome back. Good update,hopefully with the IS in a good position you can pay some enemy losses back with interest.

Thanks, Rinaldi While I was on the forum daily, I wasn't able to work on the AAR. It feels good to post something in it again! Much more to come!

It was incredibly satisfying to see the IS-2 fire on a target and take it out with one shot. I was happy with their massive armour when I purchased them, but their slow loading time and low ammo load out concerned me. Now I can see why the Russians went with the 122mm and not the 100mm.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

Quite simple... don't let your guys sit on top of the tank - unless you're gaining some kind of advantage from it. If you're just using the tank to move your troops 50 metres, well, they could have walked that distance and been able to take cover. Right now they're just sitting ducks. There's a time and place for everything.

If you look at how Bil pulled off that now famous tank charge, remember this:

1: He had neutralised the enemy in front of the forest.

2: He went through the forest along a forest road, so the only LOS to his avenue of approach would have been from the sides of the road. He estimated that there would not be any enemy there, and he was right. He could have been wrong.

3: When emerging from the forest there was a bit of open country before the objective (the forested hill). He had all his tanks area fire on the hill to suppress the possible defenders there.

4: He came in with several tanks at once, so if there had been opposition, they would not have been able to kill all his tank riders before getting overwhelmed.

5: He had a bit of luck. He threw the dice and it worked out. But he didn't throw the dice blind. He analysed the situation and estimated that odds were reasonably good.

6: He wanted to show off the new tank riders

Oh, God, the tank riders... Really? You've made me weep for their losses. ME.

The previous post covers it pretty well. Do NOT use tank riders to assault defended positions unless you just don't like desantniki and want to see them dead. Trucks drop troops off in cover. Halftracks can get closer. Tank riders should be dropped off somewhere before you'd disembark halftrack riders.

But, their blood is your gain: now you know.

HQ's and FO's should be protected as if they were more important than mere squads. Because, you know, they are.

One other point: if the muzzle of the tank can hit the house it's area firing at, you may be a bit too close. Use that "Y" button instead of "T" or "J". Just sayin'...

Y (target light) with a 30 second pause, a move and a FACE gives 30 seconds of mg fire. Pause an infantry unit for 30 and then rush the pinned building defenders.

Now, enough of that: keep the attack momentum!

Ken

Guys that is sooooo not how to use tank riders. You are supposed to drive up as the artillery is still falling on the enemy line. As the last shells are in the air your tanks and their riders are supposed be near the enemy line going full speed. Meanwhile the rest of the battalion of tanks should be direct firing along the enemy line as well Then when the last artillery shell explodes your tanks with riders just drive right through the enemy's first line of defense slams on the breaks and the riders jump off taking out anyone whos ears are still ringing while the tanks blast away in support.

I am surprised to hear hear Ken's take on tank riding because the right way seems very much up his alley

Ian, do you think the below would work then? Or is it just FUBAR.

1. Coordinate the tanks/riders arrival time with the end of an artillery barrage.

2. Have the tanks remain buttoned.

2. Plot MOVE movement waypoints for the tank. (You cannot use Quick or Fast when riders are on the tank.)

3. Give riders a Hunt waypoint at the destination so If the tank stops while taking fire en-route to the destination the riders will dismount and take

cover where they dismounted at. This may keep them safe until the end of the turn when you can intervene and give appropriate follow up orders.

4. Give the tank Target area & Target Light area orders from appropriate waypoints along the tanks route of travel

distributing suppression to more potential targets.

Regarding tank riders.. tanks with riders on them should be in reserve at this stage of the battle... only after you have a good feel for the enemy situation and can discern a possible weakness should you send them through on a wild ride. In my RT AAR game as referenced by Bulletpoint my deep attack happened very late in the game, and my tank riders on the T34/85s had seen no action to that point and were never threatened as yours seem to be.

An incredibly useful series of posts. All of it to be seriously considered. A few points (in no particular order of significance) stood out to me. Have a look; by no means am I suggesting they constitute everything needed for tank rider use, they are things to ponder however:

"don't let your guys sit on top of the tank - unless you're gaining some kind of advantage from it"

Limit LOS to the avenue of approach

several tanks at once, so if there had been opposition, they would not have been able to kill all his tank riders before getting overwhelmed.

Y (target light) with a 30 second pause, a move and a FACE gives 30 seconds of mg fire. Pause an infantry unit for 30 and then rush the pinned building defenders.

You are supposed to drive up as the artillery is still falling on the enemy line. As the last shells are in the air your tanks and their riders are supposed be near the enemy line going full speed. Meanwhile the rest of the battalion of tanks should be direct firing along the enemy line as well

Give riders a Hunt waypoint at the destination so If the tank stops while taking fire en-route to the destination the riders will dismount and take cover where they dismounted at. This may keep them safe until the end of the turn when you can intervene and give appropriate follow up orders.

Regarding tank riders.. tanks with riders on them should be in reserve at this stage of the battle... only after you have a good feel for the enemy situation and can discern a possible weakness should you send them through on a wild ride.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

Bil is a strong adherent of the "recon pull" school of thought. Meaning, don't have a plan. Scope out the enemy, THEN figure out what to do. (C'mon, it's close enough: go with it.)

 

Others believe in "command push". This means the commander's intent is signaled, and then all ops are meant to conform to it.

 

There are pros and cons to each and neither is exclusive to the other.

 

Obviously, there is a third school of thought. It involves the commissar, a nagant, and the need to prove one's loyalty to the cause. 

 

 

I know which school of thought applies to this battle.

 

 

Bud, we've all been there. Kudos for doing this in public. Your losses, thus far, could have been avoided, but are certainly not outrageous nor unheard of. All of the comments are for instructional purposes for others following this AAR. Seriously, you're doing a great job explaining what you're doing and showing it to us. For grins and giggles, I've got a pbem going where my oppo put his infantry into a chokepoint...which I'd placed a TRP on. Your losses are NOTHING compared to his. We all learn from our mistakes. Some of us are learning from yours. :)

  

Bud if its any consolation I've had as many brain farts as you've had so far in my parallel AAR; I'm officially down more officers than you are.

 

c3k is on the money, your losses are frustrating but not back-breaking, they're what I call 'teeth-grinders.' In my experience as an attacker, you always get the worst deal in the first half of the battle, and you don't get to make up for losses until you've disrupted the enemy's cohesion. Keep at it.

I'm trying to do a recon pull - as best as I can manage it with my current experience and skill. I'm hoping that some evidence of that will be apparent on AOA 1 where I have been scouting and have no intention of doing charges like I did on AOA 2.

Thanks guys for trying to make me feel less bad. the AAR has been a great learning experience for me, so keep it up!

[Bud Backer]

This would be interesting!  Especially with cool screenshots!  

 

 

I didn't want to go to far off on a tangent from Bud B's AAR so I put my reply in a new topic thread. 

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/120685-tank-speed-when-transporting-infantry-riders/

Very useful thread, my friend. Thank you for doing that testing, I had no idea I could order riders to fire while transported.

[Holien]

Thanks for the continued AAR, lurking in back watching this....

[Baneman]

Very useful thread, my friend. Thank you for doing that testing, I had no idea I could order riders to fire while transported.

 

Very little is more terrifying than a T34 breaking into your lines loaded with guys with SMG's blazing away !

It's over very quickly, one way or the other.

[Bud Backer]

It's over very quickly, one way or the other.

haha! Now if I did that correctly it would be SO true!

[Bud Backer]

Thanks for the continued AAR, lurking in back watching this....

Thanks for following! 

[Bud Backer]

Minutes 37-35 Part Two:

 

As the two Tank Platoon HQ tanks drop off their meagre tank rider survivors, 2/2 tank rushes for the more distant farmhouses, from which no fire has yet been received. 

 

 

RU095

 

Well, until now… 2/2 squad takes a terrible beating. I’ve lost 40% of the tank riders I put on AOA 2. Won’t be repeating that mistake again!

 

RU096

 

The first house is cleared, and my men approach the second, while the two T34s already stationary by the house bombard everything that moves. 

 

 

RU097

 

I try to silence the enemy guns from the last two houses with HE from the 1st Plt HQ Tank but it can’t get a bead on the window from where the fire originates. As I back it out it narrowly misses its sister 2/2 tank just ahead at the next house. These things really aim terribly when rolling!

 

 

RU098

 

As 1st Plt HQ tank rushes off to seek the right angle to fire on the last two occupied houses, 2/1 tank, now unbogged, arrives to support my 1st, 2nd and 3rd squads as they make their way in the trees toward enemy lines. 2nd Plt HQ tank blasts the location where the panzershreck is with HE area fire. And the discovery of my first armour contact at the end of the line of trees bordering the village tells me I am getting close to the main line of resistance. 

 

 

RU099

 

A view of that worrisome armour contact, far behind KT 1 and the farmhouses.

 

 

RU100

 

While the battle rages on AOA 2, on AOA 1, we get our first contacts and glimpses of the German forces on the western part of the objective area. Seeing the infantry walking around, I wonder if they are displacing to reinforce the fight in the east? Otherwise why move now rather than remain hidden waiting for me? 

 

 

RU101

 

The second IS-2, with 3rd squad, 2nd platoon on its back, arrives on AOA 1, and drops them off in the Western Woods next to KT 2. 

 

 

RU102

 

I’m not risking the men like I did on the other side by leaving them atop the tanks. I want more eyes on the enemy lines to see if I spot any AT defences as well as any HMG emplacements. I assume that most of the buildings must be occupied. 

 

 

RU103

 

The Tank company HQ arrives, carrying 2nd Squad 3rd Platoon, followed by the Regimental HQ tank, carrying 1st Squad 3rd Platoon, and 3rd platoon HQ. Half my force is on AOA 1, and they are as yet untouched. 

 

RU104

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bud Backer
Putting the bloody pics in!

[A Canadian Cat]

Hey are those your quotes back!

Humm.  I just did it with one of your pictures.  I copied the image location from one of your last pictures.  Then I clicked on "Insert other media" and picked the "Insert image from URL" option.  The dialog that came up I pasted the url into the box and the image loaded. I pressed the "Insert into post" button and tada:

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by IanL
clarify

[Bud Backer]

Hey are those your quotes back!

Humm.  I just did it with one of your pictures.  I copied the image location from one of your last pictures.  Then I clicked on "Insert other media" and picked the "Insert image from URL" option.  The dialog that came up I pasted the url into the box and the image loaded. I pressed the "Insert into post" button and tada:

 

Yeah, I just figured that out while you were thoughtfully telling me what to do. I thought that Insert Other Media was to upload to the site and there is a limit how much it will host for users so I never want to use that unless absolutely needed. Thanks though, it's working. 

And yeah, my quotes are back! Woot! Just need my siggy and I'll be happy.

Now get back to reading!

Edited September 17, 2015 by Bud_B

[Rinaldi]

A proper blood bath on the right, but it seems to be going well enough on your left. Will you be able to reinforce success there, so to speak?

[Bud Backer]

A proper blood bath on the right, but it seems to be going well enough on your left. Will you be able to reinforce success there, so to speak?

The left (AOA 1) is apparently very lightly defended. I've got the perfect position to fire on the town from the Western Woods (KT 2). The intention is to use the force there to either turn the flank of the German defenders and roll them up toward the east, where the big fight is taking place, or force the defenders to displace westward to deal with this threat. If that happens, it will ease pressure on my eastern force, and I'll cut them down with the fresh forces on the west.

That's the theory...

Edited September 18, 2015 by Bud_B