Bud's Russian Attack AAR: Красная молния

[Bud Backer]

 Minute 39-38:

 

All right, so now the attack itself begins. I’m sure I’m doing a lot of stuff wrong. As always, comments, suggestions and critique are welcome.

 

What seemed like a great position when I planned the move of the T34 in the gully ends up being completely blind. I wanted armour overwatch toward the German lines due north behind KT 1, and ended up with a tank moving at a crawl in trees and blind as a bat. Most times LOS works fine in the game but once in a while an LOS check doesn’t end up representing what is visible when one gets to the destination. I order it to turn around and move to the west. 

 

Both sections from 2/1 squad are showing Tiring, so I will leave them at the edge of the woods and cover the movement of 3/1 squad, and 1B/1 team. 1A/1 team fires on the still fleeing HMG crewman, but is ordered to move to the edge of the woods to be ready to cross the open to KT 1. 

 

 

RU070

 

Meanwhile I am moving two more T34s, each with riders, to reinforce 1st platoon on AOA 2. My objective is to engage my opponent here and present a substantial force (1/2 of my forces actually) that will convince him this is where I want to bull my way through his defences. 

 

 

RU071

 

The reality is that I see AOA 1 as lightly defended, and offering me two courses of action, both requiring I reinforce my presence there with the remaining three (1 JS-2, 2 T34s) tanks I have, as well as their riders.

 

Use the upcoming fight on AOA 2 as a distraction, my options for AOA 1:

 

i) Push forward due north and enter the objective area;

 

ii) Flank the defenders on KT 1 from the west as they are already engaged by my forces on AOA 2. 

 

I will decide which is best once I’ve explored KT 2 further. In any event I need to move my units - and again am doing so unseen behind the ridgeline. 

 

 

RU072

 

So what can we see of the enemy at this point? My barrage must have upset a few of his men - that running HMG 42 crewman wasn’t a sudden change of heart on my opponent’s part to withdraw. But aside from the occasional contact and the initial fight in the woods which cost me 6 men and 2 armoured cars, there has been very little to go on. I think he is holding back his more serious weapons, likely with target arcs that limit range. 

 

 

RU073

 

3/1 squad makes the short run from the woods I control to the ones on the eastern periphery of KT 1. I want to establish a base of fire from there and move north and west to sweep the farmhouses clean. They immediately engage the HMG crewman.

 

 

RU074

 

The T34s with riders begin to arrive. Here you see it all in one go: The displacing T34 from the gully on the right, moving left, the new arrivals bottom left, 3/1 squad making the dash upper centre, and the enemy beginning to shoot back on the T34 in the middle, as well as 1B/1 section. 

 

 

RU075

 

As 1B/1 section runs up to join 3/1 squad, they come under fire from an HMG42. Likely this is the one that was spotted by my armoured car from across the map. I’m getting the impression that the German defences have a lot of them scattered about here, but I’m not seeing them all. 

 

 

RU076

 

These foxholes probably contain the HMG, and we also get a glimpse of the HMG crewman that was running in the area before. He seems to lead a charmed life….

 

 

RU077

 

On the western front (no, not that one, that’s 1000 km the other way) the IS-2 I sent several minutes ago arrives on AOA 1. I’m sending it along the road to get better LOS on KT 1. Maybe some 122 HE shells might help the fight on the other side… While it advances, the two teams and armoured car will overwatch. I want as much chance of seeing anything threatening in the KT 2 area and the village to the north as possible. 

 

 

RU078

 

Wow, this report was supposed to cover 5 minutes (up to min 35) and only managed one, but I can’t resist giving more details and screenshots. I hope the pacing is not driving you guys mad with tedium! 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bud Backer

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bud, sure seems like you are throwing more and more stuff down the AOA1 route, which to me doesn't seem the wisest choice.

[Bud Backer]

Bud, sure seems like you are throwing more and more stuff down the AOA1 route, which to me doesn't seem the wisest choice.

You think that AOA 1 (the western route going to KT 2) is not a good idea? Ok, can you tell me why? I'm not arguing you're wrong; I'd like to hear your thoughts on why it might be a bad idea.

[Bud Backer]

I'm posting this as a refresher because it's easy to get confused by what is AOA 1, KT 1, etc.

RU009

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bud Backer

[Bil Hardenberger]

You think that AOA 1 (the western route going to KT 2) is not a good idea? Ok, can you tell me why? I'm not arguing you're wrong; I'd like to hear your thoughts on why it might be a bad idea.

Heh, yeah I meant AOA 2 .. from my point of view Bud it is looking like most of the defenses you are running into are along the AOA 2 axis.. and with next to nothing (seemingly) on AOA 1 that would tell me that AOA1 "might" be a better route to throw your main combat power on (or whatever you want to commit to clearing this first line). Still, its very early and you need to recon further into KT2 to find out what the real picture is of the enemy defenses.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bud, one more word.. I don't want to direct your battle.. so I am (from here on out) going to just give you general comments rather than direct advice.. its for you to apply proper tactics as you see fit, not as we in the peanut gallery see it. I will only add: "...hit him where he aint..."

Keep going, you are doing fine.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Heinrich505]

Bud,

  Just back to the forum and so sorry to hear about your RL crisis.  Along with all the previous posters, I hope all goes well.

 

  The battle seems to be shaping up with plenty of interesting twists.  Keep the pressure on.

 

 

Heinrich505

[Bud Backer]

Heh, yeah I meant AOA 2 .. from my point of view Bud it is looking like most of the defenses you are running into are along the AOA 2 axis.. and with next to nothing (seemingly) on AOA 1 that would tell me that AOA1 "might" be a better route to throw your main combat power on (or whatever you want to commit to clearing this first line). Still, its very early and you need to recon further into KT2 to find out what the real picture is of the enemy defenses.

Bil, you're right, AOA 2 doesn't seem a good approach. I am shifting my forces to AOA 1. Half my force - all fresh, undamaged, will be advancing along that AOA - I'm pretty convinced that it's quite clear at this point. There may be some German forces closer to the model of the map in those woods but I've already advanced a third from the edge without a singe contact or encounter in KT 2 so I'm already within reach of the objective to the north of it.

My entire reason for continuing to push on AOA 2 is to keep my enemy convinced that this is my main effort. By the time my reserve forces reach AOA 1, I'll be in the farmhouses and too close to ignore. He won't be able to shift west to deal with my advance past KT 2.

Bud, one more word.. I don't want to direct your battle.. so I am (from here on out) going to just give you general comments rather than direct advice.. its for you to apply proper tactics as you see fit, not as we in the peanut gallery see it. I will only add: "...hit him where he aint..."Keep going, you are doing fine.

"Hit him where he ain't" is another way of quoting Sun Tzu - "In war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak."

I didn't take your comments as directing anything, merely things to consider. What I hope you will continue to do - in addition to your general comments - is correct tactics and other things that are wrong as you see them. Fact is I'm doing this to learn, not showcase my brilliance. I'm doing tons wrong and I want to hear about it or I'll just keep doing the same thing wrong in the future! So please don't stop the comments and critique! The battle is already decided so you can't change the outcome at this point.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Bud_B

[Bud Backer]

Bud,

  Just back to the forum and so sorry to hear about your RL crisis.  Along with all the previous posters, I hope all goes well.

 

  The battle seems to be shaping up with plenty of interesting twists.  Keep the pressure on.

 

Heinrich505

Thanks, Heinrich, I appreciate that.

Yeah, the battle isn't going as I expected at all, but that's how you learn, right?

[A Canadian Cat]

We are all rooting for you and yours. Both in game and IRL. Some days you don't want to play or do much of anything, other days it is just what you need. Just play when it is what you need we'll be here.

[Bulletpoint]

I like that Bud has the guts to do an AAR that showcases both his good and bad choices. It's more entertaining to read than when everything just works out, and also it gives us some good examples of tactical situations to learn from.

[Bud Backer]

Minute 38-37:

With 3/1 squad and 1B/1 team in position I have them provide cover fire on the houses as well as area firing behind them in case the Germans have Panzershrek teams there.

RU079

They do a fine job of suppressing an HMG42 team behind one of the houses. Yes, the same one we saw running around earlier. This guy has a necklace of rabbit feet…

So my question to you more experienced gamers is this: What is that contact icon near the HMG icon? Can it be other team-members that I don’t see, or does it imply there are other infantrymen there from some other squad?

RU080

1. The CO of 1st platoon gets aboard 1st Tank Plat HQ. I'm going to bring him to the farmhouse, where his platoon members will join him as they advance. The tank is given the order to move toward the houses while firing as shown. I want the nearest house to be saturated with HE so that any German infantry in there will not be able to fire AT weapons, and also kill my infantry. You can also see my FOO moving closer to the farmhouses but keeping to the woods. I want to get eyes on the German second line of defence ASAP so I can target the other half of my rockets. It takes 9 minutes for it to land so I need to be ahead of the action. Risky. Too risky...

2. The 2nd T34 in 1st platoon (remember the 3rd tank is an IS-2, and is on AOA 1, not here) is ordered to area fire behind the houses near where I can see infantry contacts. It stays stationary.

3. 2nd Tank platoon CO is ordered to advance toward the houses, riders aboard, and shoot up the houses as he rolls. He will stop near the rear corner of the closest house, limiting the directions from where he can be threatened. I realize in retrospect that I’ve just done it again - ordered my HQ tanks to advance rather than the platoon tanks. I WILL learn, I swear!

4. 2nd tank, 2nd platoon remains, riders aboard, in the cover of the trees to engage targets of opportunity. I do not give it any fire orders, I’ll let him pick his own.

If it's hard to see detail, remember you can click these images and see them much bigger.

RU081

Here we see 1st Tnk Plat HQ as it nears the farmhouses on KT 1, firing all the while it travels. Just like Bil’s CMRT Beta AAR against Elvis, where he had his T34’s charge and shoot at potential enemy positions, my T34 has its shots both hit the house and the grass all over the place. It’s very inaccurate, but sure impressive to watch on replay! You can see the ricochets from bullets hitting the houses, and much of the smoke around the tank is from blasting divots in the air from wild misses.

1A/1 team runs for the woods bordering KT 1 to join 1B/1 team, while both teams from 2nd squad (highlighted orange) remain stationary, in the hope they can see of the Germans have anything on the wood-line to the north (not shown).

RU082

As the 1st Plat HQ Tank reaches the first house it stops - and blasts for good measure, while the 1st Platoon CO dismounts and runs for the house. Not to worry, that house has taken so much fire he could beat any Germans in there with a pool noodle. At least, that’s the theory…

RU083

As 2nd Plat HQ Tank leaves the woods and rushes toward the farmhouses, an MG42 - still unseen - begins stripping it of its riders…

What could I have done to prevent this? I can't blast every possible hiding place, so what is a good improvement on my method here?

RU084

Here you can see the completion of this minute of action as most units reached their destination safely. Mostly? Mostly, because the HMG picks off a couple more men on the advancing 2nd Tank Plat CO tank.

RU085

On AOA 1 the IS-2 makes it as scheduled on the road, with great LOS to KT 1 and the farmhouses. No obvious targets yet, while the two sections of 3/3 squad carefully move in bounds in the Western Woods of KT 2, and take fire again from an invisible German HMG, thankfully without harm.

RU086

Edited November 21, 2021 by Bud Backer

[Bud Backer]

We are all rooting for you and yours. Both in game and IRL. Some days you don't want to play or do much of anything, other days it is just what you need. Just play when it is what you need we'll be here.

{emphasis mine}

You've hit the nail on the head, Ian.

Speaking of being here, we need to have another coffee together!

[Bud Backer]

I like that Bud has the guts to do an AAR that showcases both his good and bad choices. It's more entertaining to read than when everything just works out, and also it gives us some good examples of tactical situations to learn from.

Thanks, Bulletpoint. It makes it a lot easier to show one's mistakes when the comments are positive and instructive rather than derogatory. I appreciate them all, and will be going over this AAR many times reading advice over again to try things out and improve.

So no ones effort here at contributing is a waste.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Bud_B

[gnarly]

LOLs at your continuing use of HQ/leaders at the sharp end.... 

 

I was awaiting the demise of the FO in a similar context...

Edited August 27, 2015 by gnarly

[Bud Backer]

LOLs at your continuing use of HQ/leaders at the sharp end....

I was awaiting the demise of the FO in a similar context...

The next battle I will be paying a lot more attention to who leads and who covers, believe me. It's embarrassing at times to see this now, because in retrospect I'm catching many of my own mistakes and wondering, WTF???

On the other hand, I want to show the bad as well as the good honestly, so...

Edited August 27, 2015 by Bud_B

[Combatintman]

Bud_B, I wouldn't be too hard on yourself - I have plenty of moments when I think to myself ... now why did I do that again? or how come I made that mistake AGAIN?

 

This thread is great entertainment, well put together and easy to follow - you are a good story teller and despite the setbacks you think you're having, you won't know what's on the other side of the hill until the game is over - some of those rounds you're putting downrange may be causing your opponent plenty of hurt.

[A Canadian Cat]

So my question to you more experienced gamers is this: What is that contact icon near the HMG icon? Can it be other team-members that I don’t see, or does it imply there are other infantrymen there from some other squad?

 

The answer is yes.  Yeah really helpful right?  It could be a location your guys glimpsed or heard the HMG crew earlier.  It could be a contact from another unit all together.  It could be a left over contact from another unit.  The one thing I can say is it appears that when you wipe out a unit all their lingering contact markers go.  So, if you nail that guy carrying the rabbits foot (he is the last guy right) and that contact goes away then it was just a lingering HMG contact but if it sticks around then it was something else.  That's my gamey advice on contacts for today

 

Speaking of being here, we need to have another coffee together!

 

Yeah we should.  I'll send you an email later today.

 

or how come I made that mistake AGAIN?

 

You too, I keep saying that to myself.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bud, you seem to be losing a lot of SMGers on the way up, do be careful, I have a feeling you will need every SMG when you meet his main line of resistance... this is just the outskirts, and should be tackled with minimum combat power, or alternately overwhelm it quickly, but if you are doing that, use everything you can spare from more than one direction and make it quick and violent... will be much easier on your infantry in the end.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Bulletpoint]

As 2nd Plat HQ Tank leaves the woods and rushes toward the farmhouses, an MG42 - still unseen - begins stripping it of its riders…

What could I have done to prevent this? I can't blast every possible hiding place, so what is a good improvement on my method here?

 

Quite simple... don't let your guys sit on top of the tank - unless you're gaining some kind of advantage from it. If you're just using the tank to move your troops 50 metres, well, they could have walked that distance and been able to take cover. Right now they're just sitting ducks. There's a time and place for everything.

 

If you look at how Bil pulled off that now famous tank charge, remember this:

 

1: He had neutralised the enemy in front of the forest.

 

2: He went through the forest along a forest road, so the only LOS to his avenue of approach would have been from the sides of the road. He estimated that there would not be any enemy there, and he was right. He could have been wrong.

 

3: When emerging from the forest there was a bit of open country before the objective (the forested hill). He had all his tanks area fire on the hill to suppress the possible defenders there.

 

4: He came in with several tanks at once, so if there had been opposition, they would not have been able to kill all his tank riders before getting overwhelmed. 

 

5: He had a bit of luck. He threw the dice and it worked out. But he didn't throw the dice blind. He analysed the situation and estimated that odds were reasonably good.

 

6: He wanted to show off the new tank riders

Edited August 27, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[c3k]

Oh, God, the tank riders... Really? You've made me weep for their losses. ME.

 

 

The previous post covers it pretty well. Do NOT use tank riders to assault defended positions unless you just don't like desantniki and want to see them dead. Trucks drop troops off in cover. Halftracks can get closer. Tank riders should be dropped off somewhere before you'd disembark halftrack riders.

 

But, their blood is your gain: now you know.

 

HQ's and FO's should be protected as if they were more important than mere squads. Because, you know, they are.

 

One other point: if the muzzle of the tank can hit the house it's area firing at, you may be a bit too close. Use that "Y" button instead of "T" or "J". Just sayin'...

 

Y (target light) with a 30 second pause, a move and a FACE gives 30 seconds of mg fire. Pause an infantry unit for 30 and then rush the pinned building defenders.

 

Now, enough of that: keep the attack momentum!

 

Ken

[MOS:96B2P]

<Snip>  What is that contact icon near the HMG icon? Can it be other team-members that I don’t see, or does it imply there are other infantrymen there from some other squad?


 

Pretty much what IanL said.  I would add a reasonable guess that it could be the ammo bearers for the HMG.

 

As 2nd Plat HQ Tank leaves the woods and rushes toward the farmhouses, an MG42 - still unseen - begins stripping it of its riders…

What could I have done to prevent this? I can't blast every possible hiding place, so what is a good improvement on my method here?
Here you can see the completion of this minute of action as most units reached their destination safely. Mostly? Mostly, because the HMG picks off a couple more men on the advancing 2nd Tank Plat CO tank.

 

I am still polishing my SOP on this one but here is what I attempted in a PBEM that just ended.  I welcome suggestions to help with the polish.  

 

1. Give the tank the Open Up order.  (This will help the tank crew realize when/if they take small arms fire)

 

2. Plot Hunt movement waypoints for the tank.  (You cannot use Quick or Fast when riders are on the tank.  If the tank takes fire on Hunt it will stop

    and allow the riders to jump down instead of getting picked off a few at a time as the tank continues at Move or Slow)

 

3. Give riders a Hunt waypoint near the destination so If the tank stops while taking fire en-route to the destination the riders will dismount and take

    cover where they dismounted at.  This may keep them safe until the end of the turn when you can intervene and give appropriate follow up orders.   

 

4. Give the tank Target area & Target Light area orders from appropriate waypoints along the tanks route of travel

    distributing suppression to more potential targets.

 

The alternative is to accept casualties among the riders and keep them on the tanks until the tanks make it to their destination with the surviving riders.  This alternative may work in some cases however like so many things in this game it is a command decision we have to make.      

[A Canadian Cat]

Guys that is sooooo not how to use tank riders.  You are supposed to drive up as the artillery is still falling on the enemy line.  As the last shells are in the air your tanks and their riders are supposed be near the enemy line going full speed.  Meanwhile the rest of the battalion of tanks should be direct firing along the enemy line as well  Then when the last artillery shell explodes your tanks with riders just drive right through the enemy's first line of defense slams on the breaks and the riders jump off taking out anyone whos ears are still ringing while the tanks blast away in support.

 

I am surprised to hear hear Ken's take on tank riding because the right way seems very much up his alley

[MOS:96B2P]

Guys that is sooooo not how to use tank riders.  You are supposed to drive up as the artillery is still falling on the enemy line.  As the last shells are in the air your tanks and their riders are supposed be near the enemy line going full speed.  Meanwhile the rest of the battalion of tanks should be direct firing along the enemy line as well  Then when the last artillery shell explodes your tanks with riders just drive right through the enemy's first line of defense slams on the breaks and the riders jump off taking out anyone whos ears are still ringing while the tanks blast away in support.  <Snip>

 

Ian, do you think the below would work then?  Or is it just FUBAR.  

 

1. Coordinate the tanks/riders arrival time with the end of an artillery barrage. 

 

2. Have the tanks remain buttoned.  

 

2. Plot MOVE movement waypoints for the tank.  (You cannot use Quick or Fast when riders are on the tank.) 

 

3. Give riders a Hunt waypoint at the destination so If the tank stops while taking fire en-route to the destination the riders will dismount and take

    cover where they dismounted at.  This may keep them safe until the end of the turn when you can intervene and give appropriate follow up orders.   

 

4. Give the tank Target area & Target Light area orders from appropriate waypoints along the tanks route of travel

    distributing suppression to more potential targets.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Regarding tank riders.. tanks with riders on them should be in reserve at this stage of the battle... only after you have a good feel for the enemy situation and can discern a possible weakness should you send them through on a wild ride. In my RT AAR game as referenced by Bulletpoint my deep attack happened very late in the game, and my tank riders on the T34/85s had seen no action to that point and were never threatened as yours seem to be.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger