Are distant shooters spotted too easily?

[Bulletpoint]

I'm wondering how easily you'd be able to pinpoint where incoming bullets are coming from. Especially at long ranges.

 

In the game, it seems I get enemy contact markers on the enemy positions quite quickly after they open up, even at 500-1000 metres distance.

 

As far as I know, Germans used smokeless, flashless powder for their small arms, and in daytime I don't think tracers are much of a giveaway ? Of course you can hear the gunshots, but wouldn't that be like closing your eyes at a fireworks show and guessing exactly where each rocket exploded in the distance?

 

AT-guns and tanks are a different story, as they often kick up smoke and dust when they fire.

 

As I am not a military man, maybe a soldier would care to explain how this works in real life?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Spotting in general is easier in game than reality. German use of smokeless powder is not modeled.

For the most part it doesn't bother me much. The two things that do aggravate me are when infantry spot something a kilometer away while Quick moving and tanks in Black Sea auto detecting nearly every ATGM launch.

[womble]

It's been emphasised before, here, by people who would appear to know more about the specifics than me, that "smokeless" and "flashless" are both relative. They smoke and flash less not "not at all". But as VAB says, it's easier in game because spending your morning pinned down by undetectable rifle fire is no fun to play.

[Bulletpoint]

 it's easier in game because spending your morning pinned down by undetectable rifle fire is no fun to play.

 

A good argument, but maybe time to detection should be a tiny bit longer. It seems it takes around 30 sec to a minute currently for getting a contact marker on distant shooters (off the top of my head). Maybe increase that to a minute or two. Just an idea..

 

Smokeless powder or not, just spotting a guy in civilian clothes standing up in a field at 1000 metres distance isn't easy. A soldier in full camo crouched in a ditch under a bush would be much harder to detect.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[RockinHarry]

I´d like to see some more camouflage modifiers implemented, like something is now for static, unmoved AT guns ( GM V3.00, p.54 ). Could be infantry in camo suits, but also pillboxes which are now considered as visible as barn doors. In the Siegfried line campaign many and most of the pillboxes not only were well emplaced and camoed in suitable terrain, they´re also considerably overgrown during preceding 5 years since initial construction. Unlike the Atlantic Wall forts, which the allies took exhaustive measures in reconnaissance before the D-Day landings, the western allies in late 1944 stumbled into the siegfried line forts more or less unprepared.

Generally, with regard to pillboxes and entrenchements, I´d like to see the (unused) experience tab to be used for getting more variations in quality of the constructions. I.e veteran and up quality forts/entrenchements are assumed to be constructed and camoed better and thus receive a spotted bonus. Regular = no modifier, with anything above or below receiving a mod accordingly.

[womble]

I´d like to see some more camouflage modifiers implemented, like something is now for static, unmoved AT guns ( GM V3.00, p.54 ). Could be infantry in camo suits, but also pillboxes which are now considered as visible as barn doors. In the Siegfried line campaign many and most of the pillboxes not only were well emplaced and camoed in suitable terrain, they´re also considerably overgrown during preceding 5 years since initial construction. Unlike the Atlantic Wall forts, which the allies took exhaustive measures in reconnaissance before the D-Day landings, the western allies in late 1944 stumbled into the siegfried line forts more or less unprepared.

Generally, with regard to pillboxes and entrenchements, I´d like to see the (unused) experience tab to be used for getting more variations in quality of the constructions. I.e veteran and up quality forts/entrenchements are assumed to be constructed and camoed better and thus receive a spotted bonus. Regular = no modifier, with anything above or below receiving a mod accordingly.

That's an approach I've suggested before. Experience affects the chances of infantry being spotted (Elite being "one with their terrain", Conscript being "sore thumbs"), so simply allowing the "Experience" of a fortification to have a similar effect on concealment, and maybe even "terrain saves", to represent better siting (at a lesser cost factor; the pill box's experience won't affect its weapon skills, spotting ability and the other things that experience would modify for an infantry element) seems like it might be a step in the right direction.

[Seedorf81]

Ambush through inattention.

 

 

One of the things that kind a made me wonder about, or slightly annoy me with, the game is the instant spotting ability of the AI.

As soon as one of my units spots an AI unit, that same unit spots me. Therefore it is virtually impossible to ambush/surprise the forces of the AI. 

 

Which is, though I understand the programmers/ developers standpoint, not as it happens in real life. Anyone who has had guard-duty in an army knows how hard it is to stay a one hundred per cent alert when you're totally tired, stressed out and/or scared. And/or distracted by hunger, thoughts off home, the weather and what not.. 

 

But even a person that is fit, well fed and focused, will have difficulties with continuously spotting for trouble at a designated sector for a longer period of time. (Two hours guard duty for instance isn't uncommon.)

 

In Combat Mission I've never had the chance to totally surprise the AI, because it is always alert and always sees me when I see it, but I really would like to see an enemy that isn't 100 % awake 100% of the time.

 

Even if it would be once in say twenty or fifty or hundred times. Could it be programmed into the game? I like to think so, and believe it adds an even more "reality-feel"  to the game.

[MOS:96B2P]

Ambush through inattention.

 

One of the things that kind a made me wonder about, or slightly annoy me with, the game is the instant spotting ability of the AI.

As soon as one of my units spots an AI unit, that same unit spots me. Therefore it is virtually impossible to ambush/surprise the forces of the AI.  <Snip>

 

Seedorf,

 

I don't think the AI has instant spotting ability.  I took a few screen shots below to illustrate.  If this is what you are talking about you can see that the German defenders have a spot on the US Team for about an entire minute.  The US Team did not spot the Germans.  You can check this in Hotseat.

It has more to do with who is moving, hiding, experience levels etc.... Hope this helped.  Or maybe I just totally misunderstood what you were saying .........

 

   

 

 

Remembering the clock counts down.

[Pak40]

I'm wondering how easily you'd be able to pinpoint where incoming bullets are coming from. Especially at long ranges.

 

In the game, it seems I get enemy contact markers on the enemy positions quite quickly after they open up, even at 500-1000 metres distance.

 

As far as I know, Germans used smokeless, flashless powder for their small arms, and in daytime I don't think tracers are much of a giveaway ? Of course you can hear the gunshots, but wouldn't that be like closing your eyes at a fireworks show and guessing exactly where each rocket exploded in the distance?

 

This largely depends on the unit firing and how many of your units are able to spot. Rifles will be particularly hard to spot. MGs should be easier. If you have many units able to spot then your chances of getting contacts go up dramatically, especially if the units have binocs and are not under fire themselves.  Also, contacts at the 500-1000m distance tend to be ? which basically indicates that your men know there's an enemy unit in that vicinity but they actually haven't spotted a soldier or vehicle. This is basically simulating real life because you'd usually know where the enemy was but may not know their exact location.

 

I'm sometimes frustrated that my men don't spot the enemy units sooner.

[womble]

Ambush through inattention.

 

 

One of the things that kind a made me wonder about, or slightly annoy me with, the game is the instant spotting ability of the AI.

As soon as one of my units spots an AI unit, that same unit spots me. Therefore it is virtually impossible to ambush/surprise the forces of the AI. 

This is simply untrue. LOS is reciprocal, yes: as soon as you might see the enemy, they might see you. If they're both the same number of high quality troops in poor concealment, then there's a high chance that the two elements will see each other at the same time. But there are many occasions when one side or the other has a spotting advantage and will succeed their "roll to acquire" sooner (on average) than their reciprocate. An obvious example is a two man Elite sniper team with binos in a church tower at 600m from a green rifle team with no binos in an open field: the poor grunts will get picked off one by one without ever seeing the sniper. In the last campaign turn I played, an element of mine stumbled upon a lone straggler and it was a good quarter minute before they were spotted back, and they were Quicking across an open field (it's KG Engel, and the player Germans are quality troops, against piss poor Amis).

 

If the AI always spots you at the same moment you spot them, then you need to work on your cover exploitation. If it's not "always" then what's the problem? It's plain to see that "sometimes" two units will spot each other simultaneously.

 

 

 

In Combat Mission I've never had the chance to totally surprise the AI, because it is always alert and always sees me when I see it, but I really would like to see an enemy that isn't 100 % awake 100% of the time.

 

Even if it would be once in say twenty or fifty or hundred times. Could it be programmed into the game? I like to think so, and believe it adds an even more "reality-feel"  to the game.

Then you need to work on your movement drills and understanding of how concealment works. It is entirely possible to generate lopsided spotting situations where you can see and spot the enemy well before they see and spot you. The AI sometimes even manages to reverse the tables. But you have to generate them, they won't just happen. Both sides use exactly the same LOS and spotting algorithms; there's no "AI spot you when you spot them" rule (I know that for sure, because I constantly get situations where my troops shoot first, against the AI).

 

So, some advice to help you get on the right side of the spotting algorithms (in no particular order): 

• Small teams are harder to spot (because there's less of them to spot, and they fit more easily behind concealing terrain features
• What's between the target and the spotter (every metre of it) matters more than what terrain the target is in. Example: Light Woods tiles give a concealment advantage; if you are in the "last" tile before open ground, your element has an average of 4m (anywhere from 0-8m, depending on where the individual troopers position themselves in their AS) of "Light Woods tile level concealment", whereas if you're in the next row back into the Light Woods patch, you'll still be able to see out, but you will have, on average 12m  (a guaranteed 8m, for the complete AS, plus the 0-8 for the AS the unit is in) worth of Light Woods between you and the observer, or three times the concealment advantage. Often, you'll be able to be even further back and still see out.
• Tree models do not give a good indication of the concealment they provide. The tree trunks block LOS, but if they're planted in "short grass", the concealment offered versus eyes on the same level by being underneath them will be minimal; if the canopy is high enough, so that the foliage doesn't preclude spotting, fire can completely ignore a "well-kept orchard" if it's aimed down the rows.
• Shooting teams are much easier to spot than teams which hold their fire. If your intention is "looking, not reaching out to touch", give your unit a short Target Arc, either circular or oriented the way you want them to bias their cover and shooting opportunity seeking. That way, they won't open fire the instant they see an enemy inside their effective range, giving away their position and attracting attention, causing an instant recipro-spot and return fire.
• If you're coming up to the "last piece of cover" between you and potential eyes (a bocage line, or clump of bushes at a crest, say) use Slow to move the last AS or two into the cover. This will minimise the chance of your arriving team being spotted by the observing enemy on the other side, because you're moving slowly and keeping low. If you want to spot without being spotted, give the moving unit a short covered arc as above so your scout team doesn't instantly engage the platoon they spot forming up in the field they just got eyes onto.
• Barns are poor concealment (and negligible cover, but that's a different issue).
• If you're moving about inside a building the enemy can see, you'll be spotted unless you Slow (or maybe Hunt).

If you take this advice in consideration, you might find that you can ambush the enemy a little bit* more than 2-5% of the time.

 

* If there's such a thing as hypobole, this is an example of it...

[Seedorf81]

Womble, thanks for your explanation.

I see that my comment wasn't justified. Mainly because of a lack of really understanding the way spotting works and partly because of my

never ending impatience. (Splitting platoons? Yeah, sure, no time for that. Going "SLOW" for the last AS or two? Come on, slow is for

girlies! Moving "SLOW" inside buildings?? Can't do that, I've got to run. Target arcs? No way, Jose!)

If I use your splendid advice, I might get more out of the game.

I do appreciate the relaxed and friendly tone of your reaction. How nice would this forum be if all posters would be this civil..

[Warts 'n' all]

I certainly agree with everything "womble" says. There is always something new to learn playing this game.

[womble]

Womble, thanks for your explanation.

I see that my comment wasn't justified. Mainly because of a lack of really understanding the way spotting works and partly because of my

never ending impatience. (Splitting platoons? Yeah, sure, no time for that. Going "SLOW" for the last AS or two? Come on, slow is for

girlies! Moving "SLOW" inside buildings?? Can't do that, I've got to run. Target arcs? No way, Jose!)

If I use your splendid advice, I might get more out of the game.

I do appreciate the relaxed and friendly tone of your reaction. How nice would this forum be if all posters would be this civil..

You're welcome. The biggest piece of advice is "Be Patient". Sitting still and letting your observing teams (Split "A" teams and HQ teams with their binos are good) gain full appreciation of what's ahead of them for a minute or two will also help avoid being surprised by the enemy.

[Placebo]

Good advice Womble, i always move my troop the last tile of cover.  I will try to hang back more and see if that keeps my guys alive longer   

[womble]

Good advice Womble, i always move my troop the last tile of cover.  I will try to hang back more and see if that keeps my guys alive longer   

Have a play with the LOS tool from a waypoint "back in the trees" a bit, you might be surprised how far back you can be and still see out. Whether you can see what is needful is another matter, since the "cone of vision" gets a bit narrower each time you step further back into cover.

[MikeyD]

The ability to spot and be spotted is somewhat dependent on experience level. Green units will (it is assumed) fidget about, do dumb stuff to get themselves spotted pretty easily. An elite highly motivated unit with solid quality command is practically like that 'Predator' monster. If he doesn't want you to see him he won't be seen. On the spotter side, a green unit is liable to trip over the enemy before spotting him. I recall some players say they always pick veteran-and-above for QB units. These are precisely the units most likely to spot you at long range.

Edited August 5, 2015 by MikeyD

[Bulletpoint]

I think some of you misunderstand my question. I'm not asking about my units being spotted when they are sitting waiting in terrain. I'm asking if the act of opening fire makes units spotted too easily at long range.

 

And it's an honest question by the way. Not a veiled criticism. I've never been under fire from distant shooters, so I don't know how easily I would be able to pinpoint their location.

[Baneman]

I think some of you misunderstand my question. I'm not asking about my units being spotted when they are sitting waiting in terrain. I'm asking if the act of opening fire makes units spotted too easily at long range.

 

And it's an honest question by the way. Not a veiled criticism. I've never been under fire from distant shooters, so I don't know how easily I would be able to pinpoint their location.

 

Not even at close range - in a current RT scenario battle, Russian SMG units have been shooting at me from some scrubby brush ( not even forest - no trees ) and I had to get within about 60m before I saw any of them ( I gamily area fired at some of the locations based on tracer, but some were still quite alive and kicking. )

And several of my units were Veteran.

 

So, no, I don't think that opening fire makes you easily spotted

[RockinHarry]

Not directly on topic, but binocs play an important role (as has been said already). Some time ago I experimented with german HMGs and noticed a considerable increase in spotting abilities between units with one and two binocs. Some HQ´s and HMGs have two binocs and spotting, as well as targeting response is almost double as usual. Would be nice to be able to scrounge more than one binoc from dead units to make a universal surveillance unit! ...or adding scissor scope units that have +10x stuff, instead of the usual 6x30.

[Bulletpoint]

Not even at close range - in a current RT scenario battle, Russian SMG units have been shooting at me from some scrubby brush ( not even forest - no trees ) and I had to get within about 60m before I saw any of them ( I gamily area fired at some of the locations based on tracer, but some were still quite alive and kicking. )

And several of my units were Veteran.

 

So, no, I don't think that opening fire makes you easily spotted

 

Just a guess, but this might be specific to bushes.. because bushes both give a hide bonus to the tile and each bush actually blocks LOS to other tiles. In terrain dotted by bushes, sometimes you can't get LOS very far. If line of sight is blocked, the units will never be spotted, no matter how long you observe.

 

Of course, since they were shooting, there must have been LOS/LOF to at least one of your units, but the bushes might have excluded most of the rest of your units participating in the spotting.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[transporter]

Tracers are still pretty visible in daylight.  Of course they say it is one that you don't see is the one that will get you.

Edited August 28, 2015 by transporter

[sburke]

I always wonder how they come up with lines like that.  It isn't like the dead guy is talking "damn didn't see that one coming".  LOL

 

I check with my pixeltruppen, but they never answer me.