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sburke

Is it just me?

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This is not to start a thread saying BF and CM are about, well not above criticism so much as CM has room for improvement.  It certainly does and the folks at BF will be the first to say that.

 

What I sometimes wonder though is how many folks are like me.  I open up a game, I start into it and I have a moment - usually every game - where I just stop and think, I can't believe I am freakin playing this!

 

Like well, now.  I am testing something for another player in CMBS and I am watching a team at twilight rushing across a stream to recon an enemy position.  NV equipment on, weapons at the ready.  I have what I think is a modified version of waclaw's HQ sound mod and I am listening to their gear rustling and the breathing as they rush forward and I get this chill... I envy you 20 and 30 year old players who have this.  I am past 50.  Most of my gaming life I had to imagine this stuff.  There is something to be said for using one's imagination..but this just totally rocks.

 

I have a pbem going on with another player on Pete's masterpiece Breaking the Panzers.  It is this epic of sound and fury and frankly I have no idea how I am doing.  It is far too early, but we are both just clawing at one another with these amazing vignettes of tragedy and triumph mixed with just this overwhelming sense of almost a twilight of the gods.

 

I just watched as a Pz of mine butchered a few of the enemy in a field, finally one isolated guy throws up his arms to surrender.  A few seconds later an artillery round strikes not too far away and down he goes.. one more casualty in a field of them, but for a moment it looked like he would be a survivor even if as a POW.  It is as amazing as any war movie battle scene I have watched and it is 2 hours long.....  the opening scene to SPR as epic as it was is easily surpassed in this game.

 

I wonder some times in reading user comments if folks just don't talk too much about that aspect and just focus on improvements they want to see or if it genuinely isn't something some folks get out of this game.  Is it just because of the years spent wishing for something like this pushing cardboard around?  Even CMx1 didn't grab me quite this way as impressive as it was for it's time.

 

If it is age and having had only cardboard then maybe I shouldn't envy you younger guys.  Does it make the same impression or are you too used to video games in general to get that same chill up your spine?

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I think you are just too close to the game.  I have found that people associated with a software developer for too long, game software or business software, have a hard time dealing with people that have issues with the software.  Its just human nature.  I have seen this in factory automation software where an individual becomes an expert in the software and that becomes his identity.  He becomes very cranky when people question any aspect of the software, as only an engineer can.

 

Your perspective is completely different than someone who sees CM for the first time after playing ARMA or COD.  You see the same issue with ARMA also.  There are people who spend their whole young adult life modding ARMA and it has become their identity.  They can't move on or get any perspective on how other people perceive the game.

 

The fact you can't understand people not having the same wonder makes me think you just need to take a break.

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I think you are just too close to the game.  I have found that people associated with a software developer for too long, game software or business software, have a hard time dealing with people that have issues with the software.  Its just human nature.  I have seen this in factory automation software where an individual becomes an expert in the software and that becomes his identity.  He becomes very cranky when people question any aspect of the software, as only an engineer can.

 

Your perspective is completely different than someone who sees CM for the first time after playing ARMA or COD.  You see the same issue with ARMA also.  There are people who spend their whole young adult life modding ARMA and it has become their identity.  They can't move on or get any perspective on how other people perceive the game.

 

The fact you can't understand people not having the same wonder makes me think you just need to take a break.

LOL maybe true, but that isn't quite what I mean.

 

It is more the transition from what I had to where it has come.  I actually see something similar when trying ARMA. I was actually a big fan of Flashpoint when it first came out.  But I don't seem to get the same feel from a first person shooter and I couldn't tell you why.  I guess because maybe there isn't a direct cardboard to video transition.

 

CM however for those of us with an SL/ASL/PB/PL etc history is a semi direct translation to a 3D world that is also (at least to me) far more realistic.  So the years of  deciding to fast move a half team in ASL across a fire swept street with smoke obscuring the enemy, artillery rounds blasting nearby, tank engines growling from a vehicle just out of sight... like DCs current AAR with Mord of an Arnhem battle.  Heck I get a chill reading his AAR.

 

Maybe I am too close to it, but I don't mind folks questioning the software. To me it is more how they do that.  There are a ton of very good ideas out there. I was trying to say that at the beginning.  This thread isn't to say people who ask for changes can't feel that thrill.  It seems though the only time that comes up is occasionally in the screenshot thread.  The folks who really focus on that level of detail to post seem to share that.  What I can't tell is if that is a general sense or if a lot of players just play at a high level (this comes up occasionally in the RTS style of play discussions. To manage an RTS play, the player has to spend most of their time not at eyeball level)

 

So let me ask you that directly - yeah gonna put you on the spot LOL  Do you ever get that thrill?

Edited by sburke

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I get it from many games, but I move on quickly...its a game.  ARMA, CM, IL2, Command, etc.  I have limited playing time and usually play a game for a while and then set it aside for awhile.  I played ASL a lot as a teenager and felt CM1 was a better translation of ASL.  I have beta tested many games, but still haven't gotten that compulsive feeling that a few people get with CM and many get with ARMA.

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I do that a lot...because I remember where I started, where electronic gaming started, I don't take much for granted unless it's some pile of crap. My first real memory of seeing a video game was Space Invaders somewhere around 78. Then I think I may have played Pong at my uncle's house. Then in 80 I got Intellivision for Christmas. I remember daydreaming and chatting excitedly with my firends about what games could be like and what we thought would be cool and they have gone beyond what my kid brain could even fathom. LOL. I still remember the day my buddy brought home some floppies of the Doom shareware...I blew a gasket...actually a couple gaskets. I thought it was the greatest thing I'd ever seen.

 

As for wargaming I played Panzer General, Close Combat and Steel Panthers but they were just kinda peripheral for me. When I encountered CMBO for the first time I thought it was moronic...I came back 6 months later and fell helmet over jackboots for it...and for WWII. The story telling moments, those little vignettes we are all always talking about really grabbed me and sold me on it. And then CMX2 came along and made those vignettes much sharper and defined, more visceral and epic—stuff I longed and wished for through the whole CMX1 development cycle.

 

I don't think sburke is too close to the game, I think he's speaking on a more transcendental level, about appreciating what we have here and now, for what it is, not what it isn't—a kind of "stop and smell the cordite" thing. There isn't a guy here that doesn't want CM to be more than it is and I think what he is saying is that the really cool things that already are, can get lost in all that static. That's my take anyway.

 

 

Mord.

Edited by Mord

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I understand what you are saying and I do get it. CMX2 has brought me to a new level of addiction with it also.

 

It is the best thing out there to let you feel you are watching a actual battle and are able to watch the many little events that create the actual whole of the one large event.

 

And yes, there is times I am drawn into the micro events as to what might  happen next in one small event that will not make or break the battle as a whole at all. But I am caught in wanting to know what the outcome for that one unit will be.

 

As for other games bringing me that. No, games like ARMA do not, the reason is, first person shooters do not feel or act realistic at all. the players are all doing their own thing and there is no concept of death being bad, so constant stupid moves are made because there is no fear of dying. The whole environment really has no feeling as to it being something you would see in real life.

 

So, maybe better graphics, and better looking small events. But the feel of the whole battle has nothing to do with reality in most games. CM is about the only thing that trys for that, and in truth it lacks many things also. But for me it is close enough that I get the feeling of a actual fight taking place.

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I've looked at other tactical wargames and I always keep coming back to CM.  My biggest gripe about BFC is that they are not making the super big bucks they would need to make CM look just like ARMA 3 and go to the next level exponentially game play/mechanics wise. Maybe one day.

 

But as a I kid who grew up on Squad Leader and cardboard counters, I totally get what sburke is saying.

 

And I am an admitted CM addict. No therapy required.

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But as a I kid who grew up on Squad Leader and cardboard counters, I totally get what sburke is saying.

 

 

wouldn't have anything to do with the aforementioned recon team would it? :D

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It's not just you, sburke. I think the game is thrilling, actually.

There is also the issue of being willing to meet the game halfway, being willing to accept the 'language' the game is talking in, in terms of graphics, concept, choices available, etc. For my part I have no problem doing that here. 

Sometimes even the limitations of a game can be part of its charm. Think of Avalon Hill's 'Tobruk' for example. It was very limited in scope, but very detailed in what it covered, and I thought it was very cool. (Pretty sure that was an AH game.)

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I tend to fall into the category of player that plays a game for the cinematic immersion - that sense of the epic - and am summarily steamrolled because of it. 

I love RTS games, but what drew me to CM was the WeGo turn based option, where I can think and kick back and let the last minutes action just roll by. 

I love that, but then I get bushwacked from an ambush or just because I didn't set my moves up adequately and I'm brought crashing back down to earth.

Mission "Poking the Bear" is case in point. I have my Strykers setup in what I believe will be a butchers picnic, only to realise a T-80 plinked both of them from behind a hedge...

Anyhoo, I digress. Yes the CM has me engrossed, but at a cost. I think I need to focus more on tactics and less on framing that perfect scene :).

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I totally agree. CM is a masterpiece in terms of immersion.

And for me, it's been one of the few games that is immersive in multiplayer as well. Before CM, my only immersive and realistic experiences were in single player. But CM is in a different league.

And I sometimes get myself into trouble, just because a squad I cared about is killed and I become filled with anger about it, mostly at myself. These no time for grieving lost men in CM, but sometimes I just can't resist. Few other games can beat this feeling and immersion.

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Like sburke I am close to this game. But I wholeheartedly agree with him.

 

After my 1/76 matchbox figurines and cardboard counters later on, CM is a blast.

 

So, no sburke, it is not just you :)

 

Ow, and I am in my fourties.

Edited by PanzerMike

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I have just turned forty...

And I agree sburke, I was playing rollin the river last night and there were quite a few moments that made me think WOW!! The battle seemed to have almost taken on life of its own as it raged around me, immserion indeed:-)

CMBS for me is full of wow moments, way way more epic moments than any other game for me ATM, although redstorm is rather good also..

The first quake, Half-Life and esecially apache Longbow 2, CMBO and CMBB had there share of epic moments for me...but CMBS with the 2.2 sound mod is as good as it gets IMHO :-)

Edited by highlandcharge

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I understand what Sburke is feeling while playing. I am well over his age and I still recall the first simulation I was invited to use when I was around twelve years old. It was a Navy carrier based Air Force, ship strafing one. You had to climb in a cut down F4 cockpit and aim the sight toward a skeleton ship moving on in a water pool a few meters away. If your aiming was good the ship folded up and sank. Lights were also flashing if I remember it correctly, simulating the hits. I dreamed of it quite a few times.

When I was twenty, the simulation I got to know about where entirely different, just starting to use computers and graphic display, with wire meshing. You really had to have your imagination working to feel a semblance of reality. I don't even mention the awful sounds..

When we talked about the needed future developments, amazingly we were right on what is done today. That was nearly 50 years ago. Naturally we came to it by graduals increments at the beginning and then the improvements were made at a quicker space. I recall that when I retired, we were moving to a new simulation, before even being accustomed to the preceding.

Nowadays the long ago missing "situational awareness" is present to an acceptable level, even if it is not close to reality depending on the type of simulation being used.

When I got to fly, few times, a DC 1O simulator in the seventies, I recall that all the flight gauges had to be reset at the end of the simulation and it took some time. The outside visual was black and really did not help you to get a "situation awareness". However stalling the plane at 30 000 feet and diving to the ground, seeing the altimeter spinning wildly downward and having the extreme difficulty to bring back the yoke even with the trims set rightly was scary, with all the warning horn blasting and the feeling of falling away from your seat. Today on Flight simulator the visual with some add-ons is fantastic and the sound not so bad. The instrument are close to the real ones if not like them and you really feel like doing an approach, besides the fact that your chair is not moving.

Playing on a car rally simulation a year ago, I got so dizzy that I had to stop it. I try it again, but the curves made me becoming dizzy once more (I gave the seat, the steering wheel and all the stuff to a friend). Just that to say it is close to reality. BTW a world champion used the same simulation in the private plane moving him from a race to another one to rehearse its coming race. Lucky dog he was not airsick and did not feel dizzy !

For military simulation, we have to distinguish a broad one (battalion, company) to one playing a scenario at platoon and or squad level or even to a FPS. For each one depending on the scenario the thrill is there.

I could conclude that to my belief a good simulation must be closely associated to a good scenario. The more the scenario is close to reality, the more the player will experience "situation awareness" and feel like he is right into it. Naturally the visual and the sounds are immersive and play fully their part

I tried and played many simulations since many years and I always had a thrill and an excitement with a new one (even in my work). I never became an expert on one, since I had to move on the new ones and for my pleasure, at home, I did the same, more or less later to exploit fully my hardware and not get broke changing it every time a new feature and or game  became available.

I still feel like a young kid when I am introduced to new softwares and  hardwares and that is the case with BF ever since I played CMBO for the first time. With CMBS we are on a very different things, but both have in common the scenarios. A good one will catch you by the pants while a bad one will make you drop it.

Cheer

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longbow 2 was the balls. quake 2 was better. ;)

Hey different games for different people :-)

I played quake on a Pentium 75MHz, I think I was because it was the first fully 3d shooter(being able to look up and down), it was on my dads PC, in the mid 90's it cost him over a thousand pounds for it.... :o

Yes Longbow 2 was special, I wish somebody would make an updated version of it..

I think Elite was the my favorite game on the spectrum in the 80's, ah the memories :-)

Edited by highlandcharge

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Defiantly not just you.

 

On the subject of playing the game itself:

 

I started out playing miniatures when I was a teenager along with a few cardboard games.  The big problem was FOW, or more precisely the lack of FOW.  They never felt right. All my grand plans to create multiple rooms and umpires etc. etc. never amounted to a hill of beans because there just was not enough players to do all the work.  When I found CM (way late I would have played CM1x for 10 years and been really happy with it) the total surprise when things suddenly went south was like a breath of fresh air.  Just yesterday in Objective Delta my men were happily moving forward thinking they had eyes on what was happening (thanks to a UAV) when suddenly all hell broke loose and my opponent came out of literally no where.  It has been three of the most exciting minutes of play in recent memory and I am totally getting wrecked.  The moments watching the soldiers scrambling for cover is just wow.   Every time I cannot see stuff and have no idea what kind of shape the enemy is in it just makes my day.

 

All the first person shooter games that people mention just do nothing at all for me.  Not a damn thing.  @slysniper nailed it earlier "first person shooters do not feel or act realistic at all. ... there is no concept of death being bad, so constant stupid moves are made because there is no fear of dying".  In CM dying matters - if you let your soldiers die recklessly that is how you loose.  No amount of better animation, or better graphics or better sound or better UI changes any of that. 

 

Bottom line the feel of the game and the behaviour of the troops has to be there first.  If it is not then none of the wiz-bang features matters at all.  If BFC never created any CMx2 titles I would still be playing CMx1 titles and loving every minute of it.

 

On the subject of criticizing the game:

Nothing pisses me off more than people saying that many of us don't accept criticism of the game.  The reality is I don't accept poorly thought out or rudely presented criticism of the game - big difference.  Ideas are a dime a dozen any one of us could create a list of improvements long enough to keep a larger team busy forever.  The trick is choosing the right improvements and doing them in the right order.

 

To understand how this works listen to this:

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-march-16-2015-1.2994052/kevin-ashton-dismantles-creative-genius-in-how-to-fly-a-horse-1.2994083

 

If that is TL;DL the summary is as humans we are wired to look for improvements.  We can be counted on to make suggestions for improvements in nearly every tool, item, process or environment we interact with - it is part of human nature.  Lots of those ideas actually just will not work, many of them will really only make things about the same just different and yet we can come up with ideas for improvements even for things we generally like already. 

 

To be well received ideas have to be communicated and presented.  Nothing kills an idea faster than rudeness - people stop listening.  I say bring on the ideas, bring on the criticism but keep your perspective.  You pet idea might not really be that good.  Your idea might not really move the bar forward much at all - it just might be a little different.  Your idea might not fit with the vision the developers want to go - sorry but they have to choose and just because they don't choose yours does not make them wrong.  Nothing moves as quick as you might want - just accept it.  And above all make sure you are not being rude.  I know tall order for humans :D

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Hey different games for different people :-)

I played quake on a Pentium 75MHz, I think I was because it was the first fully 3d shooter(being able to look up and down), it was on my dads PC, in the mid 90's it cost him over a thousand pounds for it.... :o

Yes Longbow 2 was special, I wish somebody would make an updated version of it..

I think Elite was the my favorite game on the spectrum in the 80's, ah the memories :-)

im bittersweet about longbowm the dynamic campaign was years ahead of its time. and the occasiomal special mission plus being able to fly kiowas amd uh60s and coop mode with your partner flying or gunning. sigh.

bittersweet because they were sposed to follow up with a dynamic campaign 80s Fulda Gap A10 game. never happened :(

my first 3d shooter was duke nukem. another classic. i also have fond memories of a navy seal fame set in Vietnam. you had these big maps and missions and aor sipport and whatnot. but it was like a fos but iirc was third person. great game. my first games on a pc ever though were Aves Over Europe Aces of the Pacific Red Baron amd Aces of the Deep. All classics imo. its a shame i dont have a joystick or the money for one im itchin to play age of flight, DCs A10 and the various derivatives of Il2. Especially some of the ones with Mig 21s and some other unique equipment etc. hell i was even watching a documentary on the fightin in the Kuban and i got this insane itching to start a german dynamic il2 campaign in the kuban. -sigh-

Unreal Tiurnament 1 was a classic. i didnt like two so much. i loved Op Flashpoint and then someone here gifted me Arma Cold War which would have been the period i wanted! i was insanely pumped. yet for whatever reason the gifting didnt wrk and a steam ticket put in over amonth agl stands unanswered.

SoF was ok but Soldier of Fortune 2 i thought was brilliant online in briefcade mod. if someone bought it they had to sit out the match. to the twitch generation that was a long tkme so a lot of stupid moves and dont care if i die bs went oit the window. you saw someone soraying anm60 down a hallway you got outta the way. loved it. miss it. of course half life was revolutionary. hl2,and counterstrike is still my all time fav online fps.

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Pete i should send you couple saves. the amount of bodiesnlaying arnd is staggering. but sburke rlly played this one VERY well. id warned him id played it before as brits the prrvious time i smashed my opponent and none of my three hedgerow combat rectangles were breached or knocked out. burke is destroying two actovely now, killed everyone in one (in turn losing all of his assault troops)

it looks like he.ll breach my lines. i have an extremely worrying piat shortage amd it seems my atgs are all placed wrongly leading to universal carriers zipping about behind the lines.

fifteen minutes in it got really brutal the assault troops (3 man teams) got called in on my right (brit) but left of road to take position along a hedge and layflanking fire into jerrie troops firing there. that they did laying waste until more jerries aproached a different hedge and flanked my troops who were then cut down. Vicious battle.

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And sburke you.re doing a damn sight better than me in Panzers. Distressing PIAT shortage

That's what I love about it, neither of us knows how the hell we are doing and we are both stressing.

 

You are too kind !

 

P

No I am not, see above

I'd include video, but it wouldn't do it justice. For anyone looking for a good HTH pbem, this one so far is brutal and at the same time exhilirating.

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 There are people who spend their whole young adult life modding ARMA and it has become their identity.  They can't move on or get any perspective on how other people perceive the game.

 

 

True story

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I had joked earlier that if you were ask someone what its like to be married to a supermodel you'd probably find the husband bending your ear about how messy she leaves the bathroom all the time. Yeh... that's a valid perspective... though that wouldn't have been the first aspect I'd focus on, myself. The same goes for the CM series. There's no end of things to complain about if you want things to complain about. Like the supermodel's husband finding hair clogging the bathroom sink again.  :)

Edited by MikeyD

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Hello sburke,

 

I'm quite old myself and understand exactly where you're coming from. I have played Squad Leader, Panzer General, and ASL back in the day and always dreamed of something like this. I'm also new to the series with Black Sea. Sadly what turned me off initially to the series was the graphics of CMx1. I had watched YouTube battles from people and it looked kind of silly.

 

But to be honest I haven't felt this way about a game since CC: A Bridge to Far, which was the reason why I purchased my first 'super' computer. So, I became hooked on the CC series. G.I. Combat wasn't too bad but the engine was rather limiting with not having building levels and such.

 

Matrix games has taken the torch of CC but it just doesn't feel the same. Black Sea fills the 'void' I had of my combat needs way more then what I expected. I just can't get enough! I enjoy the WeGo, especially, so I can see all the carnage unfold up close and personal. The graphics aren't all that bad on my aging PC. I'll probably pick up Red Thunder eventually once I can muster up the time and money.

 

So, yeah, you're not alone.

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