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News about T-90 upgrade plan

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http://gurkhan.blogspot.kr/2015/06/90-3.html

https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/611491472819507200(How much very soon???) 

http://vestnik-rm.ru/news-4-12551.htm

 

No information about when, how much, and details, but new they said T-90s will be upgraded to T-90M, similar as T-72B are on upgrade to T-72B3. Is this will be same with T-90AM? 

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There have been several proposed T-90 upgrade programs. It seems logical that one of them will finally get kicked into gear. However, until there is some sort of official announcement of a plan, and signs that it is actually being implemented, it should be presumed to be nothing more than talk and/or wishful thinking.

Having said that, the reality of Armata's costs and complexity does indicate that Russia will need to upgrade something in the near future if it wants to have a credible armored force of a significant size. There simply is not enough money or industrial capacity to produce the 2300 vehicles (some say Armata only, but I've lost track of where that stands) that Putin said will be in service by 2020. Especially since the vehicle isn't even ready for production now.

So it is logical that the non-Armata force will consist of a progression of existing tanks in various states of upgrade. My guess is that an upgraded T-90 will become the sister "1st line" tank to the Armata, just like the T-72B3 is to the T-90. At which point the older T-90s will be relegated to the "2nd line" position and T-72B3 will become the "3rd line" tank. As more Armatas come into being the upgraded T-90s would push down into the 2nd line and the standard T-90s moving down to third line. At which point the T-72 family will be out of service entirely.

Steve

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well all i know is if BS is even a 75% approximation of reality T72B3 s are terribad tanks. like really terribad. Steve any plans for T80s in a module? cmon man.. ;)

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Politics has consigned comrade T-80 to the history books I am afraid.

 

Looks like T-90AM we have ingame will just be designated T-90M by the MoD then. The turret on Proriv-3 model and 3d model has a different hatch configuration than T-90AM.

Edited by Stagler

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well all i know is if BS is even a 75% approximation of reality T72B3 s are terribad tanks. like really terribad. Steve any plans for T80s in a module? cmon man.. ;)

 

"Terribad" compared to what? To a basic T72B? To a basic T-64BV, even to a T-64 Bulat? I think not! It is definitely inferior to T-90A/AM; but that is also why it costs half as much. It is certainly vastly inferior to M1A2, but again - it cost 1/4 of what our MBT sells for. T-72B3 is a very low-key and relatively cheap update that significantly boosts the vehicles FC, and protection. We will have to see if T-72B4 goes into service this year, as it is much closer to T-90A in its capabilities and components..

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Politics has consigned comrade T-80 to the history books I am afraid.

 

Looks like T-90AM we have ingame will just be designated T-90M by the MoD then. The turret on Proriv-3 model and 3d model has a different hatch configuration than T-90AM.

 

The future of T-80s in RF Armed Forces is still a bit ambiguous. A recent interview by a commander of 2nd Guards Tomanskaya Division seemed to indicate that they are expecting to get latest upgrades of T-80s in a near future... Still though, I don't believe that such upgrades have been fielded (or even presented) so far..

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"Terribad" compared to what? To a basic T72B? To a basic T-64BV, even to a T-64 Bulat? I think not! It is definitely inferior to T-90A/AM; but that is also why it costs half as much. It is certainly vastly inferior to M1A2, but again - it cost 1/4 of what our MBT sells for. T-72B3 is a very low-key and relatively cheap update that significantly boosts the vehicles FC, and protection. We will have to see if T-72B4 goes into service this year, as it is much closer to T-90A in its capabilities and components..

I agree. Everything is relative. And relative to Russia's most likely adversaries the T-72B3 is quite good. Which is one reason why I keep harping on the economic foolishness of investing so much money in Armata. The most likely use of Russia's tank force is beating up on its non-NATO neighbors. The T-72B3 is superior to almost everything else out there, the T-90 even more so. So why spend 2-4 times as much and not significantly change the equation?

Steve

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...will need to upgrade something in the near future if it wants to have a credible armored force of a significant size.

 

Russia's current tank force would be perfectly adequate if it weren't hell bent on fighting wars of expansion along its border. If your tank isn't performing up to expectations in Ukraine may I suggest you simply withdraw from Ukraine. Problem solved.

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I agree. Everything is relative. And relative to Russia's most likely adversaries the T-72B3 is quite good. Which is one reason why I keep harping on the economic foolishness of investing so much money in Armata. The most likely use of Russia's tank force is beating up on its non-NATO neighbors. The T-72B3 is superior to almost everything else out there, the T-90 even more so. So why spend 2-4 times as much and not significantly change the equation?

Steve

 

Right. I would definitely agree with your point if talking about the immediate future (i.e. next couple of years). But what happens when Russia's unfriendly non-NATO members get Leo2s or maybe even M1A2? More importantly – how long can the Russians keep selling T-90As to their foreign customers? Another decade at most, I would imagine – and what then?

Russians need to advance their military industrial complex (which is one of their few progressive and competitive industries). It is absolutely essential for them to design and be ready to build next generations of core weapon platforms. However, I do agree with your point that (rationally speaking) - they should not feel any strong press to start fielding them for now.

Edited by DreDay

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Russia's current tank force would be perfectly adequate if it weren't hell bent on fighting wars of expansion along its border. If your tank isn't performing up to expectations in Ukraine may I suggest you simply withdraw from Ukraine. Problem solved.

 

I am having a bit of a hard time grasping your point. For one thing - I have not seen any evidence of Russian T-72Bs/BAs/B3s not performing up to an expectation. These are all battle-tested machines with strengths and weeknesses that are very well known. Now the expectation of their combat effectivenes might be quite low compared to M1A2, but that is to be expected. Can you point to any particular unexpected issues that were encountered by Russian Tanks (let's keep this discussion strictly to Russian forces proper) in Donbas? I seriously doubt it...

 

Also, you (or I) might want Russian regulars to stay out of East Ukraine all together, but I fail to see how their tank performance has anything to do with it.. I mean, our Humvees had performed quire poorly in Iraq prior to being up-armored. Does that mean that we should have stayed out of Iraq? Again, I personally would have preferred that; but that sure as hell has nothing to do with Humves.

Edited by DreDay

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The future of T-80s in RF Armed Forces is still a bit ambiguous. A recent interview by a commander of 2nd Guards Tomanskaya Division seemed to indicate that they are expecting to get latest upgrades of T-80s in a near future... Still though, I don't believe that such upgrades have been fielded (or even presented) so far..

 
2nd Guards Motor Rifle 'Tamanskaya' Division used T-90A.Y92a_6lmw6w.jpg

 

4th  Guards "Kantemirovskaya" Tank Division already receiving T-80UE-1.

EJjUA.jpg

 

 

 

However, until there is some sort of official announcement 

 

Source of this information is chief of GABTU - Main Directorate of Armoured Forces.
 

 

post-72228-0-43656200-1434689435_thumb.j

Edited by Bydax

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2nd Guards Motor Rifle 'Tamanskaya' Division used T-90A.

4th  Guards "Kantemirovskaya" Tank Division already receiving T-80UE-1.

 

 

My bad, I stand corrected. Good catch! Do you happen to have the specs for T-80UE-1?

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4th  Guards "Kantemirovskaya" Tank Division already receiving T-80UE-1.

EJjUA.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Kantemirov will be first to receive T-14. So these will be binned. UE-1 was first delivered in 2005.

All T-80 is meant to be out of service by the end of the year.

http://www.military-informant.com/index.php/army/3585-1.html

Edited by Stagler

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Also read on a few Russian military forums that, T-72B3Ms (or in simple terms B4) will be being bought in the coming years and this has been stated by Russias MoD even last year. The T-90M (proriv) (basically T-90AM) I'm assuming will be using some of T-14s technologies which will vastly increase its capabilities. At the 2015 army exhibition it was said T-90As will be upgraded to this level. I can find links but they'll be in Russian if any of you are interested.

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All T-80 is meant to be out of service by the end of the year.

http://www.military-informant.com/index.php/army/3585-1.html 

This article is dated 07.09.2013
На данный момент наша дивизия переходит на перевооружение… Танк такой «Т-80Е», который усовершенствует систему управления огнем, стоят тепловизоры уже для ведения огня и днем, и ночью.
Edited by Bydax

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Right. I would definitely agree with your point if talking about the immediate future (i.e. next couple of years). But what happens when Russia's unfriendly non-NATO members get Leo2s or maybe even M1A2?

They're already sunk if that happens because it means the targeted country has some sort of special status with NATO or at least one of the major countries within it. And that means that if Russian tankers should decide to go on vacation or get lost in the country they're going to have a lot more problems than a Leo or Abrams.

Think about it. What countries are even likely to accept Western military aid besides Georgia and Ukraine? I can't think of any. And if they did, where do you think they'd get the money for such purchases?

 

More importantly – how long can the Russians keep selling T-90As to their foreign customers? Another decade at most, I would imagine – and what then?

I've made this point before, but I'll restate it here. Russia's legacy clients purchase Soviet type weaponry for three reasons:

1. It's cheap

2. They have the infrastructure to handle them

3. It's good enough for their needs (usually domestic use, sometimes matching similar weaponry of a neighbor)

Armata is as expensive as a Western tank and almost as difficult/expensive to maintain. They have very little, if any, infrastructure to handle something like the Armata. Even the Russian MoD is saying it will take TWO YEARS for a driver to be fully trained. What tinpot dictatorship wants to spend that sort of money just to get their fancy expensive propaganda pieces do move without crashing into something? And because of that their neighbors won't likely be getting these any time soon either.

Soooo... who exactly is the market for these vehicles? I don't see it. I do see a continued market for upgraded Soviet era hardware and T-90s for many decades.

 

Russians need to advance their military industrial complex (which is one of their few progressive and competitive industries). It is absolutely essential for them to design and be ready to build next generations of core weapon platforms. However, I do agree with your point that (rationally speaking) - they should not feel any strong press to start fielding them for now.

 

I fully agree with the theoretical need from the Russian government's perspective. However, the Soviet Union felt the same pressure in 1980 and look how that turned out. Domestic spending can only take a backseat to military spending for short periods of time unless there is a demonstrated justification for it. Last I checked less than a half dozen countries spend the % of GDP that Russia is slated to spend, one of which is Israel and the others are 3rd world nations. It's not a good sign that Russia can sustain this level of spending. Certainly the Soviet Union couldn't and it had vastly more resources than Russia does.

From a pragmatic standpoint Russia should just say "the heck with it" and scale down to small, efficient force that is capable of doing nothing major on its own. Plow the savings back into the economy, including the defense sector. Russia can not have a competent, well armed military without an economy strong enough to support it. They need to get their economy reorganized first. And having $50b worth of assets taken over for failure to pay legal judgements from binding arbitration isn't going to help one iota.

 

Source of this information is chief of GABTU - Main Directorate of Armoured Forces.

Is there a timeline? Numbers? Also, what is the degree of confidence that this will actually happen? Militaries, Russian and other, make announcements all the time that don't happen. I think this has happened a few times already with T-90 modernization programs, hasn't it?

Steve

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Bydax,

 

Nice pics! Are 4th Guards Tank Division and 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division now actual combat units, as opposed to successive regimes' martial window dressing? Viktor Suvorov has a discussion not only of the "court" formations in Moscow, but says every MD had one, too. This is in his most informative The "Liberators," in which he details his direct involvement with the gigantic "peep show" Operation Dneiper.  Would love to hear what our Russian contingent has to say on the battle readiness of the two named formations. Also, are those real tankers in the thumbnail? The one on the left looks like a low end of the age range teenager and the other like one of those mascots wartime units created by dressing a boy in a uniform. Granted, his uniform fits!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

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terribad in relation to any non soviet design starting with T80U IMO and any Western or non Western alternative out there. Ya I guess many tin pot dictators cant afford a lot else. some countries fall into middling range though and Leo Is Chally Is, M1s a lot of older western designs and almost every ATGM out there is totally capable of utterly trashing it with catastrophic explosion. The T90 and 80 are a lot better than 72s. Western tanks too and if you change Abrams to xxxx other Western other alternative nation mbt there are better designs. Even T84 and Oplot are light years beyond T72B3 again IMO.

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This article is dated 07.09.2013

 

 

All that says is that they are currently operating T-80. They are planned to be binned to make room to recieve T-14. Trust me ;)

 

Slightly offtopic but related, the 2015 Army Expo did reveal an upgrade package to BMP-3M optics, looks similar in concept to those on the K-25. Looks like small technological read acrosses can be made.

http://uploads.ru/TeklP.jpg

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Nice pics! Are 4th Guards Tank Division and 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division now actual combat units

 

Of course. Their battalion-tactical group was moved to Ukrainain border since winter. Reportedly some crews "in vacation" took part in the war as "DNR/LNR servicemen", but their T-80 weren't in combat (though known one bad quality video, where the tank similar to T-80 drive on road within some Donbasian town)

B_5M9d0WQAEHd7B.png

Edited by Haiduk

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