Inferior to CMBB

[slysniper]

The chart is interesting, but it does show that CMx1 held a better interest in that it was able to compete for a few years against the newer system.

Also it is easy to see it is dying a slow death as it continues to get more and more outdated and it has the problem of being the same old thing helping to kill it off.

What is not good is that the CMX2 system in the last four years has not shown as much growth as you would think with all the releases in that time frame.

So I think it shows in some way that CMX1 had more support and that CMX2 has not created as great of a support group for it in its followers.

But again, none of that is going to change the course of the present companies path.

I think CMX2 is more of a investment in time, cost and effort to do anything with it. And it reflects it with what players are doing with it. less people are willing to invest the added cost or time into it.

I know I willing to pay more, take more time to play it. But I am not willing to take the time to create scenarios anymore that are worth playing. There is a limit to what people will invest into their hobby.

Personally, I would like to see a CMX3 system, that goes another direction. Like a single unit representing a tank Platoon or infantry platoon, with the AI able to manage them units. But that is just a wishful dream I never see happening.

Edited May 25, 2015 by slysniper

[Holien]

Slysniper has it nailed IMO.

Again wishful thinking I echo his view that there is a market for something in another direction which moves back towards CMBB, but in a manner that allows the developer to keep the cash flow moving.

I really enjoy CMRT, CMBN etc, but the level of investment in time and skill is very high. I can really only at the moment play a couple of pbems. I just feel there is room for something lighter...

[Bil Hardenberger]

...CMBB scenarios were most playable at reinforced company scale, and CMRT scenarios are most playable at reinforced platoon scale.  Either can take sizes one step size larger, but at a considerable increase in playing time and difficulty for the player.  Neither can realistically be played 2 step sizes above those levels.  Designed and set up, yes, played, not not really.  Watched as a movie, maybe.

 

Jason, have total respect for you, but I have to disagree here. At least for me I find the CMx2 "sweetspot" to be reinforced Company scale... that's my favorite scale to play and I can manage it just fine.  

 

I can also play Battalion-plus sized battles, i actually find that this scale seems to unfold the most realistically.  It really is a personal thing I think, everybody is different and I know many people do not like getting into the weeds like I do when I play.  You only need to read my numerous AARs to see the game played successfully at the Battalion-plus scale... I think only the CMBN BETA AAR featured a Company sized force.

 

Like Holien said though I can also only handle one or two games at a time.. which is fine by me to be honest.  Even with the CMx1 games I only played one or two at a time.

[76mm]

I am in a weird place where CM2 seems like too much work, yet CM1 seems so outdated when I play it. 

This is where I am as well.  I don't mind the new business model, etc., but I'm just not sucked into CMx2 yet

[kevinkin]

Agree. Company size or lower most of the time. However an Armor heavy battle group based on a tank battalion with an infantrycompany in support can work for me - if the battle group reflects say 1/3 losses. So effectively about 2 tank companies and two infantry platoons (modified for nationality). Commanding armor is less taxing for me than infantry.

Kevin

[Sublime]

This game, while good, is inferior to CMBB, despite the new graphics. CMBB covered 4 years of warfare, had TONS of different armies, and randomly generated quick battle maps. 10+ years after CMBB we have a three month time period, barely any armies, and set quick battle maps that become stale very, very fast. Red Thunder is a good game, sure, but it is nowhere near as good as CMBB was relative to the competition in 2002.

so go play bb

[A Canadian Cat]

^^^^

It really is that simple.

[LukeFF]

(graphics haven't been that important if you look at proper wargames other the years) .

 

They are for people that have computers capable of showing high-detail graphics and are used to playing games that do have nice graphics details. On the flip side, it seems they are far less important for the older generation that didn't grow up with high-end computers and are more used to cardboard cutout games. 

 

All that said, I'd certainly not say CMx2's graphics are bad. They are a bit behind the times in some areas (like tracers, explosions, and muzzle flashes) but in other areas they are quite good, IMO.

[LukeFF]

What I miss from CMBB is auto-generated quick battles, I think there is engine limitations in CMx2 to have it applied. Also, I play mostly QB maps against my friend, and we have to face it, that there is not many of them.

 

There's also the very real issue that many of those auto-generated maps frankly sucked and looked downright awful. 

[kohlenklau]

[LukeFF]

Make small scenarios. They're really easy, and people will actually play them. Repeatedly.

 

Indeed. For proof of this, one just needs to see all the discussion around the CMFI scenario Kiwi Soldiers. Postage stamp-sized map with about 2 platoons squaring off, but the gameplay in that scenario is great.

Edited May 25, 2015 by LukeFF

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah, to this day that is the only scenario I have played more than once against the AI. Outside of testing of course.

[sburke]

Qoute not aimed at anyone in particular - meant to highlight that even in CMBB people still disagreed at what scale was optimum.

 

Totally disagree with your view though - but that's the beauty of this eh? Everyone has opinions. All depends on how you play or your desire to be the all seeing all powerful god making every decision.

 

FWIW I personally find reinforced company in CMX2 the ideal. I find playing smaller i start to micromanage everything and it becomes tiresome, larger scale means I sit back and take in more of the big picture. horses for courses eh?

A shout out for Studienka! Outstanding scenario. The so called "micro" managing trying to sneak my AT teams through the backyards and gullies is what made that so darn good. Micro managing is not a bad thing, it is a reflection of detail. You don't like it, then maybe cmx2 isn't for you. There are other, lesser games out there.

[slysniper]

There's also the very real issue that many of those auto-generated maps frankly sucked and looked downright awful.

That is sure the truth, I always just ignore that comment about having the auto generated maps, They sucked as far as I am concerned.

The new map concept is great and anyone that complains because they are limited because of how few there are needs to understand.

That is the easiest of all the things to create in the game is new QB maps. If you cannot do that, you really need to get out of the hobby because you are not very smart.

With all the players that like h2h QB's. I do not understand why there is not a ton of user created maps being added to the library.

Really, it is step one of learning how to do something with the game editor.

[Macisle]

I think a lot has been made of the "if you split all the squads in a platoon it becomes unmanageable".  Without splitting squads I find it quite manageable to give sensible orders in two or three mouse clicks to platoons.  In the CM2x games before contact that is the way I operate - so no extra work there.  But you are right when they get into contact it takes more time and I spend more time.  However it is extra time I find I am happy to pay because the results visually, realistically and immersively are so much better in CM2x.  So in short, I personally, do not find the effort controlling troops out of contact to be significantly higher and I find that the extra effort when they are in contact to be well worth it.  Which is why I no longer pay CM1x games and I play CM2x a lot. Clearly other people feel differently, which is fine by me.  Those people should just not expect a warm reception showing up in the CM2x forums trying to push that CM1x games are better.

 

 

Indeed with all the criticism of the AI in CM2x it is significantly better than the AI in the CM1x games.

 

This pretty much hits the nail on the head as to my original point. I never said that CMx2 is better than CMx1 because splitting squads is less work and I can control a lot of units better (um...duh). I was saying that the heightened immersion and realism of 1:1 + squad splitting helped inspire me to bite into larger battles in a way that CMx1 didn't.

 

Later, I said that up until CMRT, I was a company+change man, and that now, I typically go for 2-3 companies, plus 10-20 vehicles.

 

The first scenario of the Soviet stock campaign has...3 companies, 10 vehicles and support units at the start. Can I finish a battle with that many units? Um...yeah...

 

Now, with the mega battle I'm toying with and posted pics of, let's break it down a little:

 

The player gets six companies of regular infantry taken from 3 battalions. One company is stripped off of each battalion at start as a permanent reserve and is out of play. So, that's two companies per attack vector. In other words, one company per attack vector to find the enemy and gauge strength, with one company per attack vector as follow-up/primary attack. Then, there is one company of tank riders as a rapid mobile reserve, plus engineers to deal with minefields. There are several companies of tanks, but again...they don't all come in at once and there are three attack vectors.

 

So, what the player is actually controlling at any given time is likely to be a reinforced battalion. Doable? Yup.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Is it worth getting CMBB if I enjoy CM2?

 

I am really itching to play some early Barbarossa scenarios, and CMBB seems to be the best wargame to play at the scale of CM and in that time frame.

[Macisle]

Ah, nice. I made the Polozk scenario. Do finish your scenario, might be a real cracker. I really aimed for a brutal street fight a la Stalingrad in that one. A cityscape is heavy on the performance, so I deliberately kept the size down to keep it playable. You don't need a massive city map to get it right. I am looking forward to making something like this in Berlin 1945. Or Kharkov 1943. Or Stalingrad. Preferably with some historical buildings like the Reichstag or something for extra flavor. All in due time.

 

That was yours? Man...you sir, are a genius! That map is among my top favorites in CM. It's a masterful balance of atmosphere and urban density achieved within current engine/hardware limits.

 

I never finished the scenario, but I'll check and see what I have (may be next week). I do remember I was planning on calling the scenario Onkel-Fester. He-he.

[Macisle]

Is it worth getting CMBB if I enjoy CM2?

 

I am really itching to play some early Barbarossa scenarios, and CMBB seems to be the best wargame to play at the scale of CM and in that time frame.

 

Here's the demo page link.

 

I do hope that BF eventually does Barbarossa in CMx2. I really like the early war tanks!

[76mm]

There's also the very real issue that many of those auto-generated maps frankly sucked and looked downright awful. 

While this is very true, the best thing about the random maps for me was that they could create a large map with adequate relief features, which is very tedious and difficult to create manually; the problem with creating relief is that is is very difficult (at least for me) to replicate all of the naturally occurring little folds, dips, and rises on a map. 

 

I would then "wipe" all of the other objects (forests, roads, buildings, marsh) from the map and then do replace all of those by hand.

[Mord]

 

Of course we have the same problem with CMX2 fans that keep wishing to somehow get mods and add ons to just go on forever to somehow get the scope of the whole war as we did with CMBB. But again it is a wish that will never come true. The product just is consuming too much time and man hours to create the periods that it will be outdated and have lost interest and sales to ever see the company provide such a thing. So again a wish that will never be seen.
 

 

I disagree. There's a couple things you aren't taking into consideration; CMBN is effectively done and CMFI is on its last module. Outside of any future engine upgrades those two titles are finished (unless they spring packs on us in the future). So, that frees up manpower/time. And don't forget covering the scope of the East Front isn't a one shot deal this time around. BFC can make the front in pieces and get paid as they go as opposed to investing a couple years into one title for one price. And things aren't gonna be "outdated" if they stick to the upgrade concept. If dudes like CM and the East Front I think they will buy. Yeah, it might take a few years but if the end result is the full experience then that's fine by me. Time will tell.

 

 

 

Mord.

[Glubokii Boy]

I think this limited scope is one of the greatest handicaps CM2/3 suffer from when compared to primarely CMBB...especially when it comes to community scenario creation...

 

CMRT covers only a few months during 1944 and i think someone mentioned in this thread that it has been out now for 18 months...i belive that many would-be scenario creators might have a hard time comming up with new, intresting ideas for their scenarios when restricted to this timeline only...

 

In CMBB... comming up with new ideas was obviously much easier since we had the whole war and a great number of countries to chose from....If you got an idea in your head about some battle on the eastern front...you could make a scenario depicting it with CMBB...

 

Eventually we will hopefully be able to do the same thing with CM3 but it is quite a far way of yet it seems...Hopefully within a year we will have the entire western front covered...

 

 

Like i think most people here...I absolutelly loved CMBB and i still considder it one of the best computergames ever made...but with the current state of CM3 i can't really bring myself to play it anymore...CM3 is a huge improvement imho...

 

I will just have to wait for the 41', 42' and 43' games....hopefully not to long

[kohlenklau]

Maybe scenarios are like cakes and cookies? Somebody brings you a giant cake or 4 dozen of their favorite homemade cookies.

I usually have to pass that stuff on to my dogs, my relatives or that weird dude in the accounts payable section. In that order.

Just 1 cookie or a cupcake? I can eat that. As long as the raisins aren't moving.

[kevinkin]

I do not think scenario ideas have been exhausted yet. Even with the narrow historical window of CMRT. Don't forget that battles in AGN and AGS sectors can be designed for the summer of 1944 too. And there are a ton of hypothetical tactical situations that could be made. Reasonable battles back to the summer of 1943 can be set-up as well.

Kevin

[PanzerMike]

That was yours? Man...you sir, are a genius! That map is among my top favorites in CM. It's a masterful balance of atmosphere and urban density achieved within current engine/hardware limits.

 

I never finished the scenario, but I'll check and see what I have (may be next week). I do remember I was planning on calling the scenario Onkel-Fester. He-he.

Thanks for the kind words. You can imagine I am itching to make something like this for Berlin in the next module for CMRT for example.

 

I think there is plenty more to be made for the current CMRT, but my efforts are directed towards Bulge for the time being. But when the next module comes, ow boy

 

Good luck with your weird uncle.

[Macisle]

Thanks for the kind words. You can imagine I am itching to make something like this for Berlin in the next module for CMRT for example.

 

I think there is plenty more to be made for the current CMRT, but my efforts are directed towards Bulge for the time being. But when the next module comes, ow boy

 

Good luck with your weird uncle.

 

Thanks, PanzerMike. I look very forward to seeing your work in the Bulge title!

 

Alrighty, Macisle is officially leaving this thread. I've got work to do and CM2 to play, be it with 1 platoon, 1 company, 2 companies...3...or a bit more!