Moscow Victory Day (70 Years) Parade

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Fast and furious this time:

 

 

 

The reality in which i live has a lot more people hurt in some way by the supposed good guys. Stories like- I was born in a car because my family had to flee in terror from the Croatian Army or the Bosnaks; we had to leave Kosovo because they attack us each day (not to mention the events from 2004. when they forced people out from their homes and destroyed churches and monasteries from 13th century); they desecrated graves of my family members again and so on. Makes you wonder who is really a good guy and if there's any. Our army did horrible things and I am ashamed for that, but they weren't the only ones rounding up civies and executing them.

 

It's why I made the earlier comment about picking your Hitlers.  None of the factions were lily white.  The Serbian forces however were the ones that opted to continue the war however, and the ones that vastly killed more civilians (at a rate of about 1 dead Serb civilian for evey 8 dead Bosnian).  Tallest nail gets the most hammering.  That doesn't preclude bad acts from Bosnian or Croat forces, simply frames the picture of picking the lesser of evils, and the Serbs made that choice fairly easy.

 

Which gets to the heart of my earlier comments about America being George Reeves vs being Superman.  Bosnia/Kosovo were both messy, messy terrible situations.  Our interest isn't to make the perfect resolution to have Serbs and Kosovars living arms linked and sharing little love nuzzles, it's to end the fighting that's killing thousands of civilians, causing a massive refugee crisis, all for no real effective ends.  The Serbs in the Bosnian War, and in the Kosovo conflict presented the biggest, most dangerous, least good party, and they caught some bombs as a result.

 

 

Also it leads to a question: how many civilians can you kill before the Justice system that is NATO gets worked up?

It looks like it takes about 8,000 judging from the lowball estimates of how many Kosovars were killed by Serbians, and then the 1.5 million or so refugees.

 

You might want to mind throwing rocks in your house.

 

 

 

These forums used to have a lot of interesting discussions about military history, now it is just endless boring chest thumping about how superior our side is to the other side.

 

Because CM used to be about historical military affairs, and Syria doesn't have that big of a fan club.  You make a game about NATO vs Russia, you invite in a lot of this sort of topic.  You could always go back to the historical end of the forums if that is what you miss, as I have some pretty significant reservations about your understanding of time if you're seeking military history on a thread about a future conflict.

 

 

 

Here's a unique way to celebrate the victory over fascism

 

Lawl.  

[VasFURY]

@ Panzer:

Thank you for taking the time to formulate your answer - having read it, I respect your opinions and your approach to the arguments alot more.

Ultimately, it comes down to this, what you said:

"Your point is to indicate both histories are bloody. Okay. That's not what we're debating though. We're debating that the Russians stand up to their chin in blood, and deny they're standing in it "

You are right, Russians would never accept their own dirt. Its a mentality that needs to change from the top of the pillar, down to the general public.

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@ Sublime

You do make some good points. I will disagree with you on the comment about everyone villifying the U.S. Lets be honest, in the few months that ive been on the forums, the only time I have seen people raise issues about the US in a negative way, is AFTER someone representing your Nation, has laughed or ridiculed poor Ivan, or his crappy mechanised toys, or a party related to Ivan, amd so forth :-) .

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Thanks to both of you for the examples of the Russkies and their integration. Im actually quite surprised that they would talk about Russia as a "****hole" - probably due to the experience of their parents in USSR/post collapse 90's? I personally grew up there from 85 till 94. Now have lived 20 years in UK. Integrated fully in the local society, consider it my home, dont have any Russian friends (all my Family is in Ukraine), but I still cant help but feel defensive when someone talks smack of my homeland, or judges it or points out whats wrong with it etc. Would never call it a ****hole or any other derogatory term. Do find hard to accept some of the wrongs it has done. Is it Patriotism? Dont think so. Nostalgia? Nah not quite. Love for a country, and more so for its people - no matter if many of them are misguided/bullish in their way of life? Yeh, probably a little. Would love to see a "better" Russia. But to be honest, for the most part, I dont think its really that bad. I can see a tonne of things wrong with the way things are done here in the UK, the stuff that doesnt get reported, how freedom of speech is repressed and basic human rights are ignored. Best way to avoid problems at home (UK), is to point at a villain (RF, IS, Syria) abroad, eh?

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@ Aurelius and Lacroix - im sorry that you had to experience the situations which you describe in your homelands. I really dont know much about the conflict, so cannot comment, but will continue following the discussion closely.

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@ Raptor

You are so right about that! I look forward to all the discussions that go on here. One - it lets me learn more of the world, people and opinions as a whole. Two - sometimes through discussion you learn that some people are not as ignorant as I may have initially thought, and do raise good/valid points. Three - you get a reasonable forum to express your own opinions and possibly sway the mindset of others.

Plus, some of the stuff I have read from the guys in this community, is of a real top standard. Should get put together in a work of literature of its own.

[VasFURY]

Here's a unique way to celebrate the victory over fascism

http://m.thefiscaltimes.com/home/2015-05-14-putin-turns-volunteer-vigilantes-patrol-moscow#1

This is what I meant about someone from the US camp/side taking a jibe at the russians. Ultimately it then leads to everything above, and someone in return villifying the yanks, and then back and forth like a seesaw.

[Aurelius]

And then you side with the guys that desecrate graves, blow up buses filled with civies, kill children while they are fishing. The guys that smuggle heroin, have no objection about abducting people and butchering them for organs... They enter Macedonia and kill 10 cops and wound many more (about 70 of them). You know, the good guys, guys in need of rescue. And all that while in peace enforced by glorious NATO justicars. The worst part of this story is that the NATO was used, it was not the one using.

[Sublime]

well vas they chose to leave. i think a lot of it may be optimism and wanting to believe they had chosen the correct new nation for themselves n family in the girls case a lot may be her mothers love of her past and history. she liked to be kinda a b-tch to her mom. ironically her moms english wasnt good so wen i said i was born in germany her mom started talking about how nice german soldiers were in the war. LMAO she wasnt old enough for the GPW and i doubt russian lores extoles the virtues of nazi rule so i think she was just trying tk be very polite. i explained i was american and had been born in germany due to military reasons.

as for my friend Tom i think he really admired SU military history but i also got the sense his father who may or may not really have been spetznaz had had political difficulties and thats why they somehow fled Kerch before the end of Soviet rule.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Sublime

[Sublime]

This is what I meant about someone from the US camp/side taking a jibe at the russians. Ultimately it then leads to everything above, and someone in return villifying the yanks, and then back and forth like a seesaw.

while i respect your point how do you defend this new political police and its role? it reeks of brownshirts and nazi germany in the early 1930s. Edited May 14, 2015 by Sublime

[Lacroix]

Fast and furious this time:

 

 

It's why I made the earlier comment about picking your Hitlers.  None of the factions were lily white.  The Serbian forces however were the ones that opted to continue the war however, and the ones that vastly killed more civilians (at a rate of about 1 dead Serb civilian for evey 8 dead Bosnian).  Tallest nail gets the most hammering.  That doesn't preclude bad acts from Bosnian or Croat forces, simply frames the picture of picking the lesser of evils, and the Serbs made that choice fairly easy.

 

Which gets to the heart of my earlier comments about America being George Reeves vs being Superman.  Bosnia/Kosovo were both messy, messy terrible situations.  Our interest isn't to make the perfect resolution to have Serbs and Kosovars living arms linked and sharing little love nuzzles, it's to end the fighting that's killing thousands of civilians, causing a massive refugee crisis, all for no real effective ends.  The Serbs in the Bosnian War, and in the Kosovo conflict presented the biggest, most dangerous, least good party, and they caught some bombs as a result.

It looks like it takes about 8,000 judging from the lowball estimates of how many Kosovars were killed by Serbians, and then the 1.5 million or so refugees.

 

i must refuse to look at serbia as a less valid country than U.S.A  

 

if you had equivalent of albanians in usa ,what would you do? be realistic.kosovo is like 10% of serbian internationally recognized land.  Terror  and terrorists are magnet for armies, armies that will come to try to destroy them 

Serbia was more capable of killing to some extent and thats why on paper you ll find more non serbs dead. even that is discutable tho..

 

but what does it matter 8 000 or 18 000 , one side will sometimes inflict more death on another, just cause its physics. 

one important thing. dead  Albanian terrorists tend to represent themselves   (or other people do that for them,like most of the world and most of the albanians  ) as civilians , numbers are tricky. i am not saying all of them were terrorists, i am saying just keep that in mind

 

and most importantly, i didnt see any real infromation from you. a strong case and abundance of your personal knowledge about this conflict. all i am hearing is general talk 

 

(not trying to be rude, english is not my native language, i dont posses ability to  fine tune my tone when talking,  that you do when you are talking in your primary language, and i lack many words)

[Sublime]

but subtle things are revealing kinda, to me at least

please double check it. from threads now to when i was 15 in 2000. speaking of subtle things being revealing, you mean like the one time in your life you insult a comic character you do so in a sexist fashion about a comic about a Soviet partisan woman? reading into subtley indeed.

[Aurelius]

Everyone has made a crude sexist joke in their life. Hopefully they got what they deserved.

[LukeFF]

This is what I meant about someone from the US camp/side taking a jibe at the russians. Ultimately it then leads to everything above, and someone in return villifying the yanks, and then back and forth like a seesaw.

 

How else do you expect non-Russians to react to an article which talks about a politically-backed group policing the streets? 

[VasFURY]

while i respect your point how do you defend this new political police and its role? it reeks of brownshirts and nazi germany in the early 1930s.

Its too early to ridicule something that (a) hasnt happened, and ( we havent seen its effects.

Interestingly - we have something similar in the UK - Police Community Support Officers (Simce about 2010/11) - they are not from the Police, but patrol the streets in a uniform, work with the police to identify wrongdoers in troubled neighbourhoods, and are there to generally reassure the public (or annoy the public - ive been stopped and asked for identification and explanation on what I was doing by them a few times for no reason whatsoever while out and about in the city). Generally they do a decent job. Sometimes they overstep their authority. Doesnt hurt having them ultimately. Maybe they will be of a benefit to Russian society too? You guys dont need to paint a 'dark cloud' over everything that happens in Russia.

Of note - the British students and other members of the public for a while also likened the introduction of Police Community Support Officers to the Nazi brownshirts, at the time of their inception. I will try to dig up an article I read at that time, by one of the more 'outspoken' local newspapers.

Edited May 14, 2015 by VasFURY

[Lacroix]

please double check it. from threads now to when i was 15 in 2000. speaking of subtle things being revealing, you mean like the one time in your life you insult a comic character you do so in a sexist fashion about a comic about a Soviet partisan woman? reading into subtley indeed.

i dont see how this is relevant. nor important. shes just a comic book character, and keep in mind, i criticize myself for that to some extent, and you will never do that (criticize yourself)

or if you want, i am a retarded nerd turd sexist maniac  who hates everyone, but still, how is that relevant to this thread?  (i didnt break law at least , so sorry to dissapoint you , i wont be punished)

besides thats  ad hominem, not that i am 'feeling unsecure and bad' because of those  attacks, i just dont see it how it helps you in your argument

 

 

i was talking about you

your tendency to subtly support murca more than other countries when it comes to ' whos less evil' 

that is relevant to this thread,and i think i saw it in this thread aswell.

 

 

 

problem is that this field  is like a jungle, you can say that saying X in thread Y is not what i think it is ... i know its trench warfare

[VasFURY]

LaCroix, i think I understand what you are trying to say - it is definitely difficult to express it in a foreign language.

Ultimately, its as Panzer said (and Steve pointed out to me in a different conversation about a month ago):

Sublime loves his homeland, you love yours. Its good that you both love the countries that you are from - to the extent that you both do. It also means that you both will disagree on some of the principal points in both your arguments, and to be honest I think most of us readers are not that qualified to judge who is right and who is wrong. I tend to sympathise with you, because that **** happened right on your doorstep, and it mustve been a hell of an awful time. Tell us more, but dont be surprised if the Americans counter with their own arguments - there may sometimes be something of value to learn in those comments. Or something that you can counter with your own knowledge!

[Aurelius]

 

problem is that this field  is like a jungle, you can say that saying X in thread Y is not what i think it is ... i know its trench warfare

 

It's like this

[A Canadian Cat]

Interestingly - we have something similar in the UK - Police Community Support Officers (Simce about 2010/11)

Not even close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_community_support_officer

 

 

"uniformed civilian member of police support staff"

 

To be close they would have to be members of the Conservative Party and wear a party uniform while patrolling the streets.

[VasFURY]

Not even close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_community_support_officer

To be close they would have to be members of the Conservative Party and wear a party uniform while patrolling the streets.

Dude, PCSO's are not the same as Police Officers. Whatever its idea was at inception, now its like a voluntary outfit, or lets more call it like a "contracting" facility, where you can volunteer to join the local police force's PCSO programme. Very popular with students and non-prospective individuals. Almost like an alternative to a homeguard army outfit. You get paid (not as much as a police officer, but something at least). You get some powers (not as much as a police officer, but something at least). There are prospects for a career (I think after 2 or 3 years theres a possibility to do exams/tests to become a police officer). It really is very easy to become PCSO - i have 2 friends that did it for a couple of years when they were fresh out of Uni, without too many prospects, having studied "Media Studies". They said they got in like a day after going to the local police station.

You may be pointing out that I got the years wrong - yeh, that I can accept. Ive only been really noticing them alot more on the streets in the past 4/5 years. Before there probably didnt use to be as many.

They are, in many ways, a Uniformed vigilante group (if you use the terminology of the article linked by Sburke), endorsed by the Government/police force, to render support to the communities. Most of their powers, for example an arrest or detention of a citizen, is EXACTLY the same as my power to arrest or detain a citizen, under the criminal law act. The difference is that they wear a uniform, and are on the State's payroll. Here is an article showing that they try to overstep their powers, but dont receive even similar state protection as Police officers do:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098989/Police-force-apologise-YouTube-video-showed-PCSO-accusing-animal-rights-protester-filming-pet-store-terrorist.html

So, how is this outfit not similar to what was reported in the article about what they want to introduce in Russia?

Maybe in Russia, if you disagree with a representative of such a state-backed groups, you would get beaten/detained? Maybe. Too early to tell mate, so why make a jab with it?

Edited May 14, 2015 by VasFURY

[Nerdwing]

VasFURY, you're familiar as hell for some reason.  Were you on the Wargame forums?

[VasFURY]

VasFURY, you're familiar as hell for some reason.  Were you on the Wargame forums?

Wargame European Escalation, Wargame Airland Battles, and Wargame Red Dragon my friend!

[A Canadian Cat]

So, how is this outfit not similar to what was reported in the article about what they want to introduce in Russia?

 

I don't care about the year thing - that's not it. 

 

In the UK the existing police services are hiring more employees.  Admittedly they will have less training and less authority but they are still going to report to the existing civilian police service and be hired by then, run by them, be uniformed by them and do as they are told by the existing police forces.

 

The example quoted by @sburke says this new "force" will be formed from a political party using political loyalists.  They will be uniformed by the party.  It sure sounds like they will be controlled by the party. That just screams "Brown Shirts" and sounds very different from the UK service you are comparing it to.

 

I'm not seeing these as similar organizations at all.

[VasFURY]

Ah, right, I see your distinction. Thanks for clarifying.

I think that I would need to see how the original article was worded (russian), the one the American paper reported on, to see if its indeed a "party" thing, or a "state" thing. You know how newspapers like to spin stuff. Let me dig around and revert!

[VasFURY]

Yeah, read the original article http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2725056

You are right, party 'Community Brothers' - best way I can translate the term - lock and load, help me pls - how would you translate "Дружина"?

Basically, aim is to recruit strong but smart/polite individuals, to look after the welfare of their respective communities. Apparently there are loads of volunteers already. Hopefully not the Skinhead type.

Newspaper says its likely just a PR stunt, because the police force tried many times to create such a volunteer communal protection programme in the past, all ending in failure.

[Sgt Joch]

It looks like it takes about 8,000 judging from the lowball estimates of how many Kosovars were killed by Serbians, and then the 1.5 million or so refugees.

 

1.5 million?

can you count?

the entire population of Kosovo in 1999 was 1.7 million and around 15% of those were serbs. The most refugees ever claimed by the UN was around 200k and no independent investigation since then has found the number was even close to that.

8,000 KIA is also a gross exaggeration. The KLA and the Serb forces were involved in a guerilla/counter-insurgency war, there were killings on both sides. The number thrown around at the time was 3-5k killed by Serbs, but no independent investigation since then has found any evidence of that. Most likely the number killed was less than 1,000 with the number pretty much split between Serbs killed by the KLA and Albanians killed by Serbs.

Meanwhile an estimated 500-5,000 Serb civilians were killed by NATO air strikes.

The KLA manipulated the US/UK and Clinton and Blair went along with it because it suited their political purposes.

Now we are stuck with a bad international law precedent which other countries, like Russia are exploiting.

[Sublime]

i dont see how this is relevant. nor important. shes just a comic book character, and keep in mind, i criticize myself for that to some extent, and you will never do that (criticize yourself)

or if you want, i am a retarded nerd turd sexist maniac who hates everyone, but still, how is that relevant to this thread? (i didnt break law at least , so sorry to dissapoint you , i wont be punished)

besides thats ad hominem, not that i am 'feeling unsecure and bad' because of those attacks, i just dont see it how it helps you in your argument

i was talking about you

your tendency to subtly support murca more than other countries when it comes to ' whos less evil'

that is relevant to this thread,and i think i saw it in this thread aswell.

problem is that this field is like a jungle, you can say that saying X in thread Y is not what i think it is ... i know its trench warfare

First of all its america not murca. unless you want me to call where you re from some $hithole turdstain of europe. second, i never acknowledge being wrong? bull****. you can search and easily fimd several posts where i apologized and or admitted i was wrong. i just have a problem with you being a smug sexist little punk. not one but twice in the thread in question. and where did you ever criticize yourself for it except just now to make an support to an untrue statement. you were called on it and just made another sexist comment. Edited May 14, 2015 by Sublime

[Vanir Ausf B]

1.5 million?

can you count?

To be fair, he probably did not count them himself

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Meanwhile an estimated 500-5,000 Serb civilians were killed by NATO air strikes

 

The fact you lecture me on unreliable numbers and then cite a margin of error that's somewhere in the 4500 range is pretty silly.  Just super saiyan.

 

Also the "less that 1,000" number cited is...interesting considering the ICT accounted for around 2100 in the first five months after the fighting had stopped.  The HLC which is hardly a jackbooted NATO patsy (and has done accountability actions concerning Serbian and other nationalities) gives 3,229 bodies to holes, plus another 1,889 missing and presumed dead (which is a pretty legitimate statement this long after the event).  This in contrast to the 1000 or so KIA Serbian soldiers from the entire campaign (including when NATO was bombing them).

 

In terms of refugees, about 850,000 were documented entering neighboring countries, while something like 600,000 remained within Kosovo but fled their homes becoming what's known as Internally Displaced Persons.  From this, an estimated 90% of Kosovars became some manner of refugee.

 

In looking at the 2015 numbers on net total dead/wounded/missing/etc by ethnic breakdown within Kosovo.  The estimates include about 2,000-2,500 Not-Kosovars (Serbs, Roma, Albanians from Serbia, Bosnians), with the remainder being Kosovar.  From the NATO air campaign there was around 524 total dead Serbs again, counted bodies to holes.  

 

This again paints a fairly lop sided image of who's killing who, and again if you're sitting in Bill Clinton's chair in 1999, I think you'd be hard pressed to trust the Serbs aren't doing 1993 all over again.

 

 

 

The KLA manipulated the US/UK and Clinton and Blair went along with it because it suited their political purposes.

 

Of course it did.  What guerrilla organization wouldn't want NATO air support?  However the picture you paint is frankly not backed up by any reasonable study.

 

The truth as always remains between the two pictures, it wasn't as bad as originally claimed, but by god it wasn't peaceful Serbian peace keepers lovingly and tenderly treating the Kosovars like brothers in humanity, and there's more than few dead people as a result (and needless to say, very likely would have been more dead folks had the Serbs been left to their own devices).