Moscow Victory Day (70 Years) Parade

[Sublime]

Sublime, USA was/is more under the spotlight 'cos it is #1 global player who proclaims itself to be one of the "good guys" while it's actions are sometimes somewhat "debatable". Russia is making up for it with it's Ukrainian debacle so USA is less under global attention now.

ehh the SU declared itself THE good guys the entire cold war. explanation?

[Sublime]

Or better yet: a civilian dies in NATO peacekeeping operation- collateral damage. Civilian dies in Kosovo during operations led either by the police or army- war crime. If you really take a step back you'll see that there is no good or evil and that the ones proclaiming something as good or evil are trying to use as a tool.

Or better yet a UN created Tribunal where there were some pretty hefty sentences. And thats just for the leadership. I was talking about the ones that did the killing- they were sentenced by our courts. Some cases are still ongoing. And then i take a look to the west and see a country that celebrates the day they forced every Serb they could get their hands on (about a thousand or so were killed in their homes) out of the country. Doesn't that constitute a humanitarian crisis or maybe even a crime against humanity (part of ethnic cleansing is forced relocation)?

sorry to remind you the Russian military and its reputation was responsible for the largest mass migration\fleeing in recorded human history in 44/45 and its celebrated quite often in Russia. Russia also ethnically cleansed Germans from Poland amd the Baltic states. Im not arguing the nazis and the majority of germans in that time were vicious jerks to Russians duri g that time yet Russians seem to forget Ww2 began on the basis of a joint Nazi Soviet invasion. and then theres the forced cossack, azerbaijani and other deportations in the SU. I figured this was relevant since your argument of two wronga dont make a right against NATO. which at least didnt rape every woman aged 7-80 and loot and kill drunkenly for months. oh and then forcibly keep those states 'liberated' for 45 years

[Sublime]

Panzer wrote:

"Contrast this to the Russian army which can give locusts a run for it's money, if locusts could rape and install puppet governments. That's actually rather another reason I strongly dislike the Russian military, it's like having another company that does what you do, only sans morality, decency, and gloats about how it gets away with a lack of either. Which almost loops back onto the topic, it's why I hate the Russian "victory" day parades. They're in effect celebrating the nightmare they brought through Eastern Europe, the Stalinist oppression of thousands of innocent people, and the systematic rape and looting of anything with a correctly sized set of holes, or that could fit on a train back to Moscow. It's like if the US Army had a "Wounded Knee Victory Parade" or the Brits held a festival to celebrate the first use of the maxim gun on indigenous people. Then pair it with being a celebration of a return to Russian militarism and it just honestly gets sort of sick in that regard."

Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes.

HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means.

Regarding the Victory Day parade celebrations - you got it wrong mate. Its like saying that you guys celebrate 4th of July Independence day as a celebration of all the pillaging your nation did in its birth, and then got away with it by cutting ties to "civilized" european "motherlands". Russians celebrate Victory day, because 20 or so million people died in WW2, and about 2million in WW1. The looting/raping/oppression of Eastern states is a by-product of a harsh and severe attitude that was exerted onto Russians during the Nazi advance. My Grandmother on my Father's side was raped by Fashist Poles (she is from Western ukraine). My Nanny, from when I lived in St. Petersburg in my infancy, was captured by the Norwegians and mutilated during the 300 day blockade of Leningrad. And there are MILLIONS of stories like that. How do you think the Husbands, Fathers, Brothers of such women would react, when bitterness is deep in their soul and they are finally pushing back into the lands of the invaders? There you go.

You Americans have never experienced such loss/terror/anguish, because all your wars of the last 100 years are far away from home. Don't judge Russians for their attitude, because there is A LOT of history that got them to this attitude.

Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about).

So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or ( throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden.

Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.

ok wait. first a Norwegian capturing anyone in your family during the Leningrad siege sounds like nonsense. the Norwegians were occupied Allies and the Finns didnt advance to Leningrads northern areas fatally letting Russ supplies thru lake Ladoga.

Second what large scale pillaging took place in the US revolution? Specifics please. oh yes we lied and killed american indians at every turn but that was almosy entirely post revolution.

third Russians dont trust America because we made fun of you in movies but you guys admire the Germans who conducted the largest land invasion of all time on your nation with plans to subjugate and kill all of you? WTF?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Sublime

[kevinkin]

_Steve

 

_{I truly understand the point you are making in the drunk driving analogy above. It's just the loss of life touches many families including mine.}

_{Perhaps another example would have been more appropriate. Society may not consider all drunk drivers "evil", which is true. But don't ask the families}

_{that will never be the same.}   

 

_Kevin

[VasFURY]

ok wait. first a Norwegian capturing anyone in your family during the Leningrad siege sounds like nonsense. the Norwegians were occupied Allies and the Finns didnt advance to Leningrads northern areas fatally letting Russ supplies thru lake Ladoga.

Second what large scale pillaging took place in the US revolution? Specifics please. oh yes we lied and killed american indians at every turn but that was almosy entirely post revolution.

third Russians dont trust America because we made fun of you in movies but you guys admire the Germans who conducted the largest land invasion of all time on your nation with plans to subjugate and kill all of you? WTF?

Finns! My bad - got caught up in trying to express the feelings across - wrote down a completely unrelated nation! The nannys village was on the northern border, she and her family were mutilated quite gruesomly, ive seen all the scars and held her hand that was missing all fingers apart from the thumb.

Second - umm, the brits raiding french villages and vice versa (the early American Citizens)? The forceful taking of land and extermination of whole tribes of native indians? Slavery? The raids into Mexico? The treatment (enslavement) of the Chinese labour force? The lootings and pillagings during the wild west era? The gangs of new york (lol)? Your country's history, in the short 300 years that it has existed, floats on just as deep a bathtub full of blood, as does Russia's, within and without your own borders.

Third - yeah I know, its weird like that huh? I think is mostly because they are the closest 'proper' "Western" country to Russia, (apart from the nordic ones to the north) and over the past 10 or so years thats where many russians have had chance to travel on inexpensive holidays, and see how well and 'harmoniusly' the people live there under Democracy.

---------

There's quite a fair amount of Russians in the States. Do they integrate at all into the local society? Or do they keep to themselves.

Actually, interesting question - has anyone here from the US military had a Russian (like, one who's family emigrated a while back, and he grew up in the States) serve with them in the forces? If yes, how did they act? How did they tell you of back home?

Edited May 14, 2015 by VasFURY

[Lethaface]

Thing is, we've wandered into this weird realm where terrorism is now bigger than simple law enforcement.  If we were at war with Cuba or something, and flew drones all over blotting out Cuban soldiers left and right, no one would bat an eye.  However because the fighters we're facing, no matter how deadly their intent or desires are, are not uniformed, somehow that's different.

 

We're effectively at war with their organizations, if they're nation states or not.  We've been directly attacked by the folks we're meatsaucing all over the landscape.  I don't feel the lack of nation-state makes them somehow more deserving of due process than someone wearing a uniform for Cuba.  

 

 

It's again, not a "new" concept, just new tools.  Looking at the French and Brits during the Cold War in their colonies (or recently former colonies) there's still a pattern of targeted killing vs arrest and apprehension.  Same deal with nearly every COIN campaign in history.  The only difference this time is technology allows for a wider more distributed insurgent network, and allows for a more active "kill" network from the other end.

 

Same game, difference pieces if you will.

 

Not going to repeat myself, it might be the same type of game it's a whole different ballpark or league. The Frenchies and the UK have had their dirty laundry too. But the world isn't a contest to get the most dirty laundry (congrats your way ahead of the competition! ). Anyway if you don't see the problem of you fighting the symptoms of 'something' and just that symptom fighting has become a larger than law enforcement bloody war with organizations around the globe, while you do away with 'something' as a vague thing outside of your control (haters gonna hate us anyway), your missing the whole point. 

 

 

That's fine, but how is international affairs a reasonable justification for flying planes into the World Trade Center?  Does European hypocrisy justify American terrorists shooting up cheese factories because we're not allowed to sell "Parmesan" cheese now?  

 

The west is a handy thing to blame for internal problems.  You listen to many of the anti-American, anti-Western speakers, and it's well beyond objections to current events, and well into the realm of fantasy and make believe levels of US/Western crimes.

 

Here it is. Of course hypocrisy is no reason to kill although some nutjobs think it is. Anyway a group of people thought what you done to them is so bad (rightly or wrongly) that a couple of nutcases from that group fly planes in the WTC. 14 years later you're still bombing people in retaliation and it isn't helping. It's time to check the mirror instead of justifying your own killing.

 

I'm not listening to many anti-American or anti-Western speakers, I'm just thinking critically and have the ability, as a Western person, to accept that we might have our share in the origin of certain stinking mess in the world. I have had the opportunity to travel the world and getting to know local people in many different countries which has probably influenced me. Personally I don't think the insights that gave me are fantasy, more on the lines of a paradigm shift.

 

That is not at all what I said, or believe.  I said the anti-western folks will be anti-western regardless of what we do or not do.  There's a significant population that might sway one direction or the other, but my experience in Iraq amounted to while they might hate the US for being in Iraq, they equally hated the insurgents who were planting the bombs.  We rarely dealt with the "I was cool with America, but then you came and destroyed everything!" terrorist that seems to keep showing up on TV and in the media.  The majority hated us before 2003, or even 1991, and were going to hate us if we gave them reason to hate us or not (we were accused of importing "special insect" to eat all of Iraq's crops.  I really cannot make up the distinct detachment from reality we dealt with).

 

And it did not change based on how kinnectic we were.  My first deployment we were ripping doors of hinges, and still dropping bombs in places.  If you cut into our convoy during our road movements, you were going to be staring down the barrel of a .50 cal in short order (we did not open up on anyone, most folks got the message).  Second deployment?  We couldn't enter a building without being invited in,* nothing had fallen off a plane and exploded in well over a year.  We let the traffic just flow in and around our movements, no big deal.

 

And the hate and hostility was there regardless of how nice we were, or rough we were.  We were the infidel invader of terrible to that population of people.

 

So to that end the folks we actually worry about, the actual "going to try to kill people" folks are largely, and almost entirely the sort of folks who'd hate us and try out the whole terrorism thing anyway.  It happened before drones, it'll keep happening after drones, with the overwhelming majority having an opinion on same, but the number of "new" anti-American folks is negligible.  

 

 

*Unless it was self defense, like we'd been shot at from the building, or needed cover

 

I'm thinking you are mixing up hate with a couple of things: healthy skepticism of foreign 'invaders', severe distrust of any authority, generally not caring and or minding your own business (probably a smart thing to do when living under Saddam) and of course there will be those that will always hate. While the majority can be the average intelligent person + the 50% that's less intelligent, I'm not accepting your statement that most of them will hate the West one way or the other and will pick up weapons to go and kill us just because they feel like.

[Lethaface]

The world is not a black and white place where there is only good and only evil. Sometimes bad things are done by good people, less commonly good things are done by those who are evil. When trying to summarize a particular historical event to cultural tendency, it is important not to forget this. However, it is more important to not blur the distinction between good and bad too much. There is a difference between a guy who accidentally kills 7 people while driving drunk and someone who is part of an organized death squat who executes 7 people at close range. In both cases there are 7 people dead for bad reasons, but say the two people responsible are even remotely in the same moral category of good/evil is crazy.

Steve

 

Well said and very true, although the 7 families of the drunk driver victims might not agree

[sburke]

Can't respond as a military person, but overall Russian integration into us culture is really not much different than other groups. The initial generation tends to have problems assimilating and tends to also then become vulnerable to internal criminal elements. Just take a look at episodes of law and order or other crime shows about references to the Russian mob. My mother was also an ER nurse in Brooklyn and had a lot of difficulty dealing with the Russian immigrant community as they had difficulty transitioning to different expectations about medical care etc.

I expect however as you get to 2nd and 3rd generation though that changes. As an example after all the hype about Spanish language issues in the US, the latest data is showing (at least in California) an increase of fluent English speakers in the Hispanic community and a decrease in those who still speak Spanish natively at home. Assimilation is a gradual process and typically takes a couple generations to occur.

[John Kettler]

My youngest brother sent me a piece FOX did on the T-14 Armata. It's got some great shots in it that I'd not seen before, including a look at the rooftop sights with the doors open! Though the title says it's about the tank breakdown, it's really far more significant and interesting than that.

 

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4223532307001/russias-state-of-the-art-tank-stalls-during-parade/?#sp=show-clips

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited May 14, 2015 by John Kettler

[VasFURY]

Thats what Russia needs, a few generations that have integrated into Western society, have served in respective respected forces of those nations - to then return back home and provide an example, because a good example is what my homeland lacks (change must happen from within, rather than from external pressure/influence, otherwise nothing will work)

Edited May 14, 2015 by VasFURY

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Or better yet: a civilian dies in NATO peacekeeping operation- collateral damage. Civilian dies in Kosovo during operations led either by the police or army- war crime. If you really take a step back you'll see that there is no good or evil and that the ones proclaiming something as good or evil are trying to use as a tool.

 

On the other hand, NATO doesn't have a history of setting up concentration camps, or going into UN safe areas and shooting every male and burying them in ditches.  Even if you handwave Serbian operations in Kosovo as merely causing collateral damage (and by most accounts they'd gone well beyond collateral damage), the Serbian military was still led by the same folks who'd killed a boatload of innocent folks, were unrepentant about same, and were by most observations about to do the same thing all over again.

 

There's a practical limit to just how permissive the world at large was going to be, and the Serbian military strode over that line handily.

 

 

 

Or better yet a UN created Tribunal where there were some pretty hefty sentences. And thats just for the leadership. I was talking about the ones that did the killing- they were sentenced by our courts. Some cases are still ongoing. And then i take a look to the west and see a country that celebrates the day they forced every Serb they could get their hands on (about a thousand or so were killed in their homes) out of the country. Doesn't that constitute a humanitarian crisis or maybe even a crime against humanity (part of ethnic cleansing is forced relocation)?

 

Dunno.  Maybe you shouldn't have shot so many ethnic Albanians.  Perhaps then they'd remember you more fondly.  There's certainly a backlash, and certainly less Serbians in Kosovo today, but I have not seen proof of this mass killing outside of Serbian apologist sources, and frankly sounds like your problem should be with how Kosovo acts as an independent country vs the NATO campaign which was to keep Serbians from having another go at ethnic cleansing.  

 

 

 

Panzer, you just gotta look at Russia as a country that is going through the cycles that all other major countries went through 100-400 years ago (sort of, delayed evolution). What you describe, is exactly the same as what the British or the French did to their colonies. Or what the young (first founded) Americans did to the Indians or the African slaves. Russian people themselves are people who have been enslaved for hundreds of years by the Mongol-Tatars, then by the Imperialist Tsarism, then by the corrupted "freedom" of Communism, then by the Mafiosi of the 90's, and now by the current dictatorship. This, and the huge population losses of two world wars and the subsequent Stalinist repressions, has really made the people "bitter". I know its not an excuse, but Russia (well, certainly Russian mentality) has not evolved as quickly as the rest of the civilized world. You can still sort of consider it as a, maybe not 3rd world country, but definitely 2.5 world country. I feel that for my homeland to reach similar levels of Morality as is exhibited right now in the West, it will take about 50-100 or so years, and a few regime changes. 

 

And Hitler's actions are simply Germany going through what the Mongols went through.  We just have to let this all play out.

 

Like I've said, I have a strong distaste for:

 

1. The Russian government.

2. The unapologetic view of the USSR (which is not to be confused with "the USSR is pure satan and should be hated by all" but the crimes and misdeeds need to be recognized)

3. Russian military actions in Eastern Europe.

 

Of those, the first two are things that honestly I agree with you that years and years from now, maybe Russia will get over.  And I support the Russian ability to choose its own leadership, even if that leadership is Putin.  But that right to choose their own path ends where other countries begin.  If Russia wants to behave like it does, then it needs to accept that it won't win it friends and allies.  It cannot "make" allies out of its neighbors at bayonet point, or carve off pieces of its neighbors to make "buffers" against invasions that frankly will never happen. 

 

 

 

HAVING SAID THAT, I believe that Russians actually need a strong Dictator leader at the present moment, because without one, the country will just return back to the 90s, with various fragments of society all vying for power through dubious means. 

 

Like I said earlier about Iraq, the government needs to grow organically by the people its ruling.  A strong Russian leader isn't bad for the Russian people...I just object to when he defines his Russian people to include other country's citizens, in places that Russia by treaty gave up the rights to.

 

Re: 4th of July

 

It actually celebrates the day in which the rebelling colonial government folks got together and agreed that we were not simply rebelling in protest against British actions, but were in fact rebelling to become and independent nation.  The conflict to settle that matter would go on for some years after.  So we celebrate the birth of our country, and honestly some pretty cool founding ideals (especially given the era in which the nation was founded!) on the 4th of July.   There's no day set aside to represent the final victory at Yorktown.

 

Additionally in terms of pillaging you'll find that the American text books are quite clear these days on who's the "bad guys" in western expansion, and it's not the natives.  That's really my objection to the way Russia does history, it ignores the massive suffering Russia has caused historically in favor of this "everyone is out to get Russia!" narrative that does a disservice to history on a whole.  And leads to confusing situations like when Russia makes references to Ukrainians as "brother" while ethnic Ukrainians likely would rather be called "brother" by some forms of sea slugs.

 

If in future Victory Day parades took place in a greater understanding of the USSR's role in World War Two (the complete role, from the high point of taking Berlin, to the low point of invading Poland hand in hand with the Nazis), I wouldn't object so strongly.  But I imagine many Russians would be deeply concerned if the US had a Victory over Japan parade without owning up to what the nuclear bombs actually did to tens of thousands of civilians.

 

 

 

Of course, the flip side, is that - this was 70 years ago, Russians should move on, let go of the bitterness, forgive and forget so to say, act more "honourable" etc. like the rest of the world is, become friendly with neighbours, etc etc. I dont know. I see that the African population of certain cities in the US is definitely still bitter about certain circumstances that used to happen more than 150 years ago (before slavery was abolished in the States). I mean heck, they BUILT your country and its economy, but yet probably more than half of them live much worse off than a poor Russian family currently lives (and I have been to the States many times, so I do know what I'm talking about). 

 

Eeeeeeh, I think you're biting off a bit more than you can chew.  The US racial issues are to put it mildly very complex and vary widely from place to place. The issue at hand has virtually nothing to do with "slavery" and a lot to do with economics. Not to mention you're overstating the role of slavery and its relevance to the wealth of the United States.  The US economy owes more to the anti-slavery North and it's industrial output than it did to the cotton grown in the south.  Which is not to deny that it was an important part of the US economy prior to the Civil War, but it was an increasingly less important part of the economy and the South's attempts to leverage Cotton as a weapon simply hastened its irrelevance in the greater world.

 

That said about 24.2% of African Americans live in poverty.  This is a problem, but it can also be tied into some of the regional issues of areas that are largely African American (the South especially is struggling as an economic area which remains where a significant number of African Americans live) but this is not "half" and of that half making statements of their quality of life vs Russian quality of life really should be supported more than simply saying its a thing.

 

 

 

So, not to take a bite at you or anything with the above, but Russians are a proud people (maybe not noble, but definitely very proud), who respect their past/history, celebrate the memory of the forefathers, like to flex their muscle (even when its made out of cardboard), think the rest of the world is out to get them (not just because of state propaganda, but because of the lessons taught by history), and will continue to do whatever the hell they want until either (a) they are knocked on the head (internally or externally), or (  throgh the years they travel west more, see how the rest of the world lives, and try to bring good moral principles back to their homeland for improvement. They definitely do not view the Americans or the States as anything that should provide them with a good moral compass (you guys have been ridiculing Russia waaay to much in the past - Hollywood et al, which just adds to the Russian's "bitterness"). They do view Germany and the UK in quite high regard, as well as Finland/Sweden.

 

And that's fine, and not even "bad" in terms of being proud, it's just a false pride without understanding the entire picture.  I'm very proud of being an American and my country.  This does not prevent me from recognizing the terrible sin of slavery (although it does mean I'm a huge William T Sherman fan), the appalling treatment of the Native Americans, the whole Spanish-American war fracas, the Philippine Insurrection, ongoing racial and economic tensions, etc, etc etc.  You don't really love your wife until you know her well enough to find she's secretly the biggest fan of "Twilight" series, or was into Vampire LARPing as a teenager.*  And to that end I wish Russians would love their country like I love mine, with eyes wide open and willing to question the "official" version of events.

 

 

Oh, almost forgot to say, regarding the behaviour of the current Russian Military - you gotta remember that the RF military has not fought alongside any of the Western militaries against a common enemy in like, ever? I think for the Russian Military, in order to act in the "morally correct" way that you describe, would need to be deployed somewhere along side Western forces, so as to learn from their behaviour, emulate it, and garner respect from their comrades in arms for emulating such behaviour. I mean, isnt this how you guys became so "polite" while waging war? Because you did it alongside the French and the Brits, who would say - Oi, you there Sir, why are you acting like that to those poor farmers? It must be a psychological thing - if you are criticized for your behaviour from the OUTSIDE, then the Russian troops are like - whatever, youre not here, dont tell us what to do and what not to do. Whereas, if your troops are next to theirs, pinned in an arty bombard, losing comrades in arms equally, and then if the Russians start abusing the residents of a village that you both have just stormed, and you say - dude, thats wrong - they may listen to you closer, because they wont want to look bad in the eyes of their comrades in arms.  

 

 

 

In terms of "polite" war, a lot of it for the US draws at least from nominally high societal ideals, and historically a past of going to war to "help" (IF YOU WANT IT OR NOT/roads to hell are paved with good intentions etc) people.  Either way I think the Russians are smart enough to learn without needing "Good" examples.  And honestly might go a long way to helping their military be viewed a bit more positively.

 

 

 

Second - umm, the brits raiding french villages and vice versa (the early American Citizens)? The forceful taking of land and extermination of whole tribes of native indians? Slavery? The raids into Mexico? The treatment (enslavement) of the Chinese labour force? The lootings and pillagings during the wild west era? The gangs of new york (lol)? Your country's history, in the short 300 years that it has existed, floats on just as deep a bathtub full of blood, as does Russia's, within and without your own borders.

 

1. British on French on native violence was pretty much mutual.  Everyone raided everyone else's villages.  Also Americans...like the French and Indian war is important because some of our super-old National Guard units trace their lineage back to it, and it's where a lot of the very important Colonial officers get their start....but it's not a popular conflict in the US.  The feeling was basically here we are, enjoying our colonies more or less doing our thing unmolested, and then the British roll in and start a war next door, and now there's French and Indians burning down our villages and kidnapping our family members.

 

So it's not really celebrated.

 

2. The treatment of Native Americans is extensively taught at all levels of schooling.  No punches are pulled.

 

3. Same deal with slavery

 

4. You need to be a lot more specific on raids into Mexico.  If you're talking about the Mexican American war, that's pretty much two mutually flawed groups thinking they could exploit the other's weakness.  If you're talking about the cross border anti-Indian raids, that's it's own bag of worms (largely done with Mexican approval).  If you're discussing the Pancho Villa pursuit, then that's a story into its own.

 

5. The Chinese showed up as contract laborers for the railroad.  It was expected they'd leave at the end of railway construction.  They did not.  And their story is not at all much different than any numbers of large immigrant groups from there.  Calling it slavery is pretty much not understanding what you're talking about though (or you should also be talking about Irish, Italian and Polish slavery in the same breath).

 

6. You're mistaking western movies for the American west man.  Or you're talking about the US-Native fighting which was discussed in point 2.

 

7. Gangs of New York was a terrible movie.

 

Your point is to indicate both histories are bloody.  Okay.  That's not what we're debating though.  We're debating that the Russians stand up to their chin in blood, and deny they're standing in it (and if you did the last 300 years side by side Russia has killed way more people anyway).  The US has largely owned its sins to the degree of ensuring their taught in schools, erected monuments to same and you can discuss those topics without skinheads on motorcycles stomping you for insulting the motherland.

 

 

 

Actually, interesting question - has anyone here from the US military had a Russian (like, one who's family emigrated a while back, and he grew up in the States) serve with them in the forces? If yes, how did they act? How did they tell you of back home?

 

On several occasions actually!  They're less uncommon than you'd think.  My "partner" (they paired you with someone to do gunnery with, so we did all the simulators and firing together) at Armor school was of either Latvian or Lithuanian origin.  Funnily enough he once commented his dad had been a Colonel, but when they read off all the senior officers attending our graduation, his dad wasn't on the list.  I asked him what was up, and it was because his dad had been a Colonel in the Soviet Army.  My last unit had a pair of Russian born officers too.  They acted pretty much as American as American can be, you wouldn't have known they weren't from LA or something except the accents (one had a mild accent, but the other had one that was frankly outrageous).

 

None of them had much nice to say about the motherland (to be fair, the one with the crazy accent was from Vladivostok which I hear is pretty terrible by most accounts).

 

 

 

Not going to repeat myself, it might be the same type of game it's a whole different ballpark or league. The Frenchies and the UK have had their dirty laundry too. But the world isn't a contest to get the most dirty laundry (congrats your way ahead of the competition!  ). Anyway if you don't see the problem of you fighting the symptoms of 'something' and just that symptom fighting has become a larger than law enforcement bloody war with organizations around the globe, while you do away with 'something' as a vague thing outside of your control (haters gonna hate us anyway), your missing the whole point. 

 

Again, missing the point.  Firstly if it comes time to weigh dirty laundry...nah I think the French and the British pretty much have that one.  

 

If you're fighting an illness, and it's causing the throat to constrict, you need to clear the airway while addressing the underlying illness.  Drone strikes keep the airway clear.  The problem is addressing the underlying illness is something that's a lot more ethereal and relies on a lot of things outside the control of the US government.  We've just become the folks to blame for all the ills of the middle east, while ignoring a lot more of it has to do with the Syrian/Saudi/etc government behavior (and while we might support those governments to a degree in some cases, this cannot be confused with being at the heart of how they treat their populations).

Re:14 years later

 

Missed the point.  It's not "retaliation" it's "trying to reduce the threat from people who've vowed to kill every American ever" and to a large degree, the organization that did the attacks was pretty well curbstomped.  This ISIS mess has a lot more to do with the Arab Spring and Syrian actions than anything we've done.  Pakistan's Northwest where most of the drones have done their work remains pretty much anti-american as it ever was, but just as largely irrelevant outside of Pakistan-Afghanistan as ever.

 

Okay.  I'm seriously done for the day.  Unless I start getting paid for writing these things I'm going to have to start keeping the replies short.  

*Note, Mrs. Panzersaurkrautwerfer hates twilight from the top to bottom, and is by far too practical to have ever gone at it with foam rubber swords.  She is from Roswell though so I do sometimes wonder if she's "native" if you get my drift.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Okay.  I'm seriously done for the day.  Unless I start getting paid for writing these things I'm going to have to start keeping the replies short.  

*Note, Mrs. Panzersaurkrautwerfer hates twilight from the top to bottom, and is by far too practical to have ever gone at it with foam rubber swords.  She is from Roswell though so I do sometimes wonder if she's "native" if you get my drift.

 

Who needs public schools anymore, we'll just have kids log on to the battlefront forums for lectures by Steve and panzer here!

 

Instead of going outside for recess, we will drill in Combat Mission, grades are dictated by casualties and objectives taken.

 

Edited May 14, 2015 by Raptorx7

[cool breeze]

"Schoof Of Hardknocks"

[Sublime]

Vas none of those answers had anything to do with the american revolution. the French and Indian war was before the US was a nation. Obviously the US has blood on its hands any nation does ans US has quite a bit. i just tire of the international dounle standard that seems to have heldover from the cold war. the NLF, VC commit atrocities theyre heroes. the SU invades Afghan and doesnt make half the effort at not tartgetting civilians ad the US did in Vietnam which often was piss poor on the US part, but it seems the US is villiefied constantly. funny you bring up slavery, what do you call forcible relocation of hundreds of thousands of Germans many non.military into forced labor in the SU? and let it not ve forgotten the bloodiest war in us history was the civil war, and more than half the counntry fought and bled to rid our nation of it.

ive known many russians here. my most recent ex gf was russ, well now Belarus. her and her mother from minsk. she was beautiful emigeated late in her teens. described home as a corrupt $hithole.

one of my best friends as a teenager was named vasili or something but demanded to be called Tom to fit in. clained his dad waas ex spetznaz. idk if it was true good kid. didnt remember much of russia. introduced him to cmbb we.d endlessly play he enlisted in the marinws did three tours in iraq incl. Fallijah and is married a american woman and lives on the cape. in bigger us cities they have russ sections of town eg brighton beach in nyc, parts of allston brighton in boston. lots of signs in cyrillic etc they integrate very well. and try harder and aree probavly looked upon more agreeably than say latino immihrants

Edited May 14, 2015 by Sublime

[Lacroix]

what i am seeing here ,from people like sublime,panzer and other ,basically from people who are pro america , to the reasonable extent is: ' everyone's bad but were just less bad' 

and also ' its clear that X did more killings and Y did less killings and X is more guilty' while offering 0 evidence and even less evidence that is 100% Clear undisputed Evidence

 

edit: for every your acusition against serbia i have 2 to throw at croatia/albania. its endless circle and not productive at all

Edited May 14, 2015 by Lacroix

[Aurelius]

The reality in which i live has a lot more people hurt in some way by the supposed good guys. Stories like- I was born in a car because my family had to flee in terror from the Croatian Army or the Bosnaks; we had to leave Kosovo because they attack us each day (not to mention the events from 2004. when they forced people out from their homes and destroyed churches and monasteries from 13th century); they desecrated graves of my family members again and so on. Makes you wonder who is really a good guy and if there's any. Our army did horrible things and I am ashamed for that, but they weren't the only ones rounding up civies and executing them.

[Aurelius]

Also it leads to a question: how many civilians can you kill before the Justice system that is NATO gets worked up?

[Sgt Joch]

what i am seeing here ,from people like sublime,panzer and other ,basically from people who are pro america , to the reasonable extent is: ' everyone's bad but were just less bad'

and also ' its clear that X did more killings and Y did less killings and X is more guilty' while offering 0 evidence and even less evidence that is 100% Clear undisputed Evidence

edit: for every your acusition against serbia i have 2 to throw at croatia/albania. its endless circle and not productive at all

That is how these threads always wind up.

These forums used to have a lot of interesting discussions about military history, now it is just endless boring chest thumping about how superior our side is to the other side.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Sgt Joch

[Lacroix]

The reality in which i live has a lot more people hurt in some way by the supposed good guys. Stories like- I was born in a car because my family had to flee in terror from the Croatian Army or the Bosnaks; we had to leave Kosovo because they attack us each day (not to mention the events from 2004. when they forced people out from their homes and destroyed churches and monasteries from 13th century); they desecrated graves of my family members again and so on. Makes you wonder who is really a good guy and if there's any. Our army did horrible things and I am ashamed for that, but they weren't the only ones rounding up civies and executing them.

what hes saying.

 

you cant just pick one and say ' this one's  more evil' 

 

based on what? Cnn and your logical thinking + wiki? 

i used to troll wikipedia of famous 'singers' from serbia and write stupid stuff, wikipedia is funny  imo, not good source of information

 

it doesnt work like that,specially for these ' butthurt nationalistic themes'

 

steve posted something here about Franjo tudjman. he concluded that hes not a nazi. sure he didnt call himself nazi, but his actions were 'nazi'  (even tho i dont like bashing nazis that much)

 

steve said: 'Not to mention contrary to the facts. Franjo Tuđman, one of the founders of the HDZ, was elected in 1990 as president of the Croatian republic while it was still part of Yugoslavia. In WW2 he fought against the Germans and their Croatian puppets, then became a general under Tito post war. Hard to qualify him as a Nazi.''

 

his sentence looks logical to you all , and it would look logical to me too, if i wasnt from this area. i duuno how to explain this but this 'logical' sentence is just not true

its easy to get tricked

it looks good on paper, but reality is different

 

many years passed since ww2. and its not clear how hard he fought against germans and WHY and when exactly* , keep that in mind.<

i am not saying hes nazi in a black/brown shirt, i am saying his actions were Nazi-like (negative meaning in this case)

you think he'd be dumb enough to say ' i am a nazi' ?

 

his country was croatia not germany , and trust me , Croatia is to some extent a fascist state. Not 100% fascist, but a decent amount of population is fascist in Reality (they dont wear flags nor have tatoos on their forehead  ' i am a fascist/nazi' )

Edited May 14, 2015 by Lacroix

[sburke]

Here's a unique way to celebrate the victory over fascism

http://m.thefiscaltimes.com/home/2015-05-14-putin-turns-volunteer-vigilantes-patrol-moscow#1

[AttorneyAtWar]

That is how these threads always wind up.

These forums used to have a lot of interesting discussions about military history, now it is just endless boring chest thumping about how superior our side is to the other side.

 

I see plenty of interesting discussions on these boards, you can't just use this thread as an example of something you don't like and say it applies across the entire website.

 

I also don't see much chest thumping from either side, rather different perspectives and opinions born from different upbringings (Geographic mostly), if we can't have discussions like this we will never see the truth or understand eachother.  I also admit that I do not know much of the kosovo war but I am learning things by reading posts from both "sides" and I do want it to continue civilly as it has been largely so far.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Raptorx7

[Sublime]

what i am seeing here ,from people like sublime,panzer and other ,basically from people who are pro america , to the reasonable extent is: ' everyone's bad but were just less bad'

and also ' its clear that X did more killings and Y did less killings and X is more guilty' while offering 0 evidence and even less evidence that is 100% Clear undisputed Evidence

edit: for every your acusition against serbia i have 2 to throw at croatia/albania. its endless circle and not productive at all

well luckily for me then i have zero respect for you or your ignorant opinions since your idiotic posts in the thread about the comic about the Russian female partisan where you basically said she belonged in a kitchen.

Btw Lacroix you completely misrepresented everything i said. i never said ANYTHING about bosnia serbia etc. i never said the US or West was better nor did i even say certain nations former or current have more blood on their hands, though i may believe that to be true

Edited May 14, 2015 by Sublime

[Sublime]

Here's a unique way to celebrate the victory over fascism

http://m.thefiscaltimes.com/home/2015-05-14-putin-turns-volunteer-vigilantes-patrol-moscow#1

SturmAbteilung anyone?

[Lacroix]

well luckily for me then i have zero respect for you or your ignorant opinions since your idiotic posts in the thread about the comic about the Russian female partisan where you basically said she belonged in a kitchen.

i lightly insult comic book characters (actually that was only one in my life that i 'insulted ' )  and you heavily insult other people in a thread that has nothing to do with comic book characters. there are different ways to insult someone. but it seems there is no difference in your book

and my quoted previous post is not insulting anyone, i choose words carefully

[Lacroix]

you completely misrepresented everything i said. i never said ANYTHING about bosnia serbia etc. i never said the US or West was better nor did i even say certain nations former or current have more blood on their hands, though i may believe that to be true

 

i ll double check that, i might be wrong. certainly you are not saying  ' murca best everyone else die' but subtle things are revealing kinda, to me at least